Sin is Sin All Sins Are Equal.

[Angel4Truth]

I dont care if you believe me or not. Truth gets to those who embrace it.

 

[LightHorseman]

I'd believe you if you presented evidence.

Since you claim to have this evidence, I'm at a loss as to why you refuse to present it. Especially since it would be safely anonymous here.

If I made a claim, thn refused to provide the evidence I claimed to have, what conclusion would YOU draw?

 

[KCKID]

I would also like to know why homosexuality is considered harmful. If it's a sin then it appears to leave no victims in its wake. Oh sure, failed relationships, infidelity and such might leave some wounded souls but the same can certainly be said for heterosexual relationships.

Something that bothers me is when I hear that a 'gay' person is now celibate as Angel states about her brother. Celibacy is fine for those who choose to be celibate for their own personal reasons; however, 'forced' celibacy on someone would have to be a sin in and of itself. While I don't want to draw the wrong conclusions, the rather harsh contents of Angel's posts in regard to homosexuality would indicate that a great deal of pressure would have been put on her brother to become celibate. If that Is the case then shame on Angel and others who might have placed the guy in such a position of guilt that he had no other alternative than to make a hurried decision that would appear to appease 'everyone'.

By the way, no one can make an iron-clad guarantee that he/she will remain celibate. Such a decision is subject to change.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Thats a very shameful post Kckid and im sure you know it too. I forgive you as well.

 

[LightHorseman]

I rather suspect that this is the harm angel is suggesting when she says "homosexuality harmed her brother"... he WAS harmed... by the bigotry and intolerance of the people who were supposed to lova and accept him.

And I bet that harmed him like a baseball bat to the skull. However, like I say, when a bigot bashes a homosexual, bigotry is the problem, not homosexuality.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Something that bothers me is when I hear that a 'gay' person is now celibate as Angel states about her brother. Celibacy is fine for those who choose to be celibate for their own personal reasons; however, 'forced' celibacy on someone would have to be a sin in and of itself. While I don't want to draw the wrong conclusions, the rather harsh contents of Angel's posts in regard to homosexuality would indicate that a great deal of pressure would have been put on her brother to become celibate. If that Is the case then shame on Angel and others who might have placed the guy in such a position of guilt that he had no other alternative than to make a hurried decision that would appear to appease 'everyone'.

I rather suspect that this is the harm angel is suggesting when she says "homosexuality harmed her brother"... he WAS harmed... by the bigotry and intolerance of the people who were supposed to lova and accept him.

And I bet that harmed him like a baseball bat to the skull. However, like I say, when a bigot bashes a homosexual, bigotry is the problem, not homosexuality.

A good example where that sin hurts others can be seen in both your posts kckid and lighthorsemans. It causes you both to bear false witness and harm another person through a character attack as well (which God equates to murder in the bible) just to allow for the sin of your choice.

You and many others like you make my point for me. Your all willing to harm others for what you desire to be the truth even when it isnt.

 

[LightHorseman]

Thats a very shameful post Kckid and im sure you know it too. I forgive you as well.

Shameful because... it highlights the flaws in your argument?

Do try to remember that someone pointing out your errors is not a personal attack. Just because you don't like being wrong does not mean everyone else should just pretend you are right, whatever you say.

(Still waiting on any evidence suggesting homosexuality itself is harmful)

 

[LightHorseman]

A good example where that sin hurts others can be seen in both your posts kckid and lighthorsemans. It causes you both to bear false witness and harm another person through a character attack as well (which God equates to murder in the bible) just to allow for the sin of your choice.

You and many others like you make my point for me. Your all willing to harm others for what you desire to be the truth even when it isnt.

Please cite any example of false witness to come from me?

False witness, to clarify, is when you make stuff up about someone, for example ":my brother was harmed by being homosexual"... THAT is false witness.

Pointing out the inconsistencies, errors, and prejudices in a totally unsupported position is NOT false witness, no matter how hard you wish peopler would just swallow your story, HL&S

 

[Angel4Truth]

Keep attacking me. Jesus said the world would hate us for His sake. Your words to me speak of who actually hates.

 

[KCKID]

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A good example where that sin hurts others can be seen in both your posts kckid and lighthorsemans. It causes you both to bear false witness and harm another person through a character attack as well (which God equates to murder in the bible) just to allow for the sin of your choice.

You and many others like you make my point for me. Your all willing to harm others for what you desire to be the truth even when it isnt.

Angel, aren't you being just a tad mellow-dramatic? I said that I didn't want to jump to any conclusions. However, the suggestion I gave for your brother's claimed celibacy is a valid one. Are YOU saying that you embraced your brother's homosexuality without any lashings of (Bible) condemnation at all? The contents of your posts somehow don't suggest this.

 

[LightHorseman]

Keep attacking me. Jesus said the world would hate us for His sake. Your words to me speak of who actually hates.

Martyr complex aside, no one is attacking you.

YOU are the one accusing others of bearing false witness... I'd say you initiated the attack. All I have done is give you the opportunity and repeatedly ask you to support your statements with evidence. That isn't an attack, thats being open minded and willing to rationally discuss things.

Your constant tapdance about why you shouldn't have to provide evidence and how we should just believe you for some unspecified reason is going to draw some justified criticism. Thats not a hate based attack, thats a perfectly rational critique.

Even Jesus provided evidence to support his claims. Jesus is with me on this one. Stop judging homosexuals, speak only of love, and don't make up stuff about people JUST because they disagree with you.

Remember, no matter how hard you wish reality would change, reality is not built on democracy. The facts remain the same whether you like them or not.

So, perfectly willing to discuss things with you in an open and friendly way, but this hiding behind a pretend sense of persecution any time yopu are challenged is very tired.

If you speak the truth, you should be able to back up your claims with evidence. If you can't back up what your saying with evidence, logic or reason, then don't say it. Its really that simple.

I mean, I believe some stuff without evidence, but I don't go around demanding everyone listen to me about it, then claim I'm being persecuted when they don't.

 

[Angel4Truth]

God sees the intent of the heart.

 

[Nadiine]

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A good example where that sin hurts others can be seen in both your posts kckid and lighthorsemans. It causes you both to bear false witness and harm another person through a character attack as well (which God equates to murder in the bible) just to allow for the sin of your choice.

You and many others like you make my point for me. Your all willing to harm others for what you desire to be the truth even when it isnt.

character attack is par for the course around here - esp. on certain subjects that they get more radical about.

Imo, character attack is usually done when you make valid points in a post that refute their positions well - in order to deflect focus away from your statements. Draw everyone's attn. to YOU so that you're sidetracked into defending yourself instead of dealing with your statements.
Some people do it more than others too I've noticed (seems to be a pattern). I don't spend my time defending myself when they resort to personal attacks becuz they're irrelevant to the issue.

 

[Nadiine]

[Staff Edit]

It is harmful becuz it goes against God's established order for the family unit.
It is immoral, therefore, IT IS HARMFUL TO SOCIETY and those participating in it on a moral & spiritual level.

I don't expect a non Christian to see the harm in it; becuz they reject God's laws and moral standards.
They also don't see the wrong and harm in many other things Christians do. For that matter, you can justify abortion since you mite not see the "harm" it causes by the "good" you see it performing for people.

But the majority of women getting abortions are single who are having sex outside wedlock which is sin - that is harm.
Porn is often viewed as harmless - it's not harmless in many ways and even secular professionals will admit to what those are. But if you as a person LIKE porn, and think it's fine, you wont' see the harm in it.

Harm is relative to those who embrace relativism and morality is not relative. Essentially, you decide what is moral according to your standards (or lack thereof).

Redefining the marriage union is harmful to everyone as people are reconditioned to accept what is sinful and wrong. That is harm.
Whether you view it that way or not. And AS a non believer, we don't expect you to until God is allowed to change the heart.

There is more than physical harm involved in harm. There is emotional and spiritual harms to consider as well.

 

[LightHorseman]

homosexuality is not harmful to families. Bigotry is harmful to families, but thats a different issue

 

[LightHorseman]

Redefining the marriage union is harmful to everyone as people are reconditioned to accept what is sinful and wrong.

and just how much has the marriage union been redefined over the millenia? Oh wait, Adam and Eve are exactly like Richies parents in Happy Days, and thats all marriage has ever meant, everywhere, all around the world

 

[Nadiine]

and just how much has the marriage union been redefined over the millenia? Oh wait, Adam and Eve are exactly like Richies parents in Happy Days, and thats all marriage has ever meant, everywhere, all around the world

have you not read Jesus' definition of the marital unit?

Mat. 19
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

Rebellion of God's moral standards leads to MORE rebellion and sin as it escalates into further depravity. It's like cancer. It grows and spreads and gets more invasive and intense.

Romans 1 explains how sin worsens as we continue to rebel and reject God's standards for us:
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.
29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.
30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.
31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.
32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway.
Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Societal examples already exist to prove how sin escalates and worsens when more boundaries are stepped over. The morality of most nations even 30 years ago is totally different than today's. It gets more immoral at time goes on.
Today you have 6th graders having oral sex in classrooms and on school buses.... the lists go on.

THAT is a form of harm because it leads to other immoral worldviews which broaden and get worse over time. It's rebellion of the established order God designed. 1 rebellion leads to the next.

 

[IamRedeemed]

When Christians start spouting the rhetoric of atheists, it does tend to get a little concerning.
At least they have an excuse for not being diligent to study and show themselves approved
as workmen unto God who need not be ashamed.

See 2 Timothy 2:15

Ah, that old cop out. Go on, chapter and verse where such a distinction is made?

Whats that? No such distinction exists in the Bible?

You mean its an arbitrary classification allowing you to break Levitical laws with apparent impugnity, while condemning others for exactly the same thing?

I see.

 

[Nadiine]

When Christians start spouting the rhetoric of atheists, it does tend to get a little concerning.
At least they have an excuse for not being diligent to study and show themselves approved
as workmen unto God who need not be ashamed.

See 2 Timothy 2:15

Yes, they team up with them to gang up on "conservatives" (mostly) and sound like them many times.

There's a definite reason for the divisions that exist.

 

[LightHorseman]

your interpretation of the Bible is flawed. Jesus was using a DEscriptive phrase, not a PROscriptive one.

What are the odds you are prepared to listen to me about this and consider the possibility of an error on your part?

Judgind by the super bold big font, I'm guessing slight