Sin in Christianity

[RDKirk]

Nowhere is that present in the Tanakh. The redeemer was always HaShem Himself. I do not worship a bloodthirsty deity that has no mercy upon His creation.

There is nothing in the Tanakh that suggest I have to hope someone will come and act as my attorney before the Holy One. That goes against the entire idea that we are responsible for ourselves.

Maybe not in the Tanakh alone, but it is in the New Testament, and the New Testament influences how Christians interpret the Tanakh.

But you know that, LoAmmi, from all the threads you've participated in before.

That's why I say the topic should have been kept narrower in scope to sin in Christianity.

 

[LoAmmi]

This redeemer is another human; he is described as someone who stands on the earth.

Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold , and not another ; though my reins be consumed within me.

25. But I know that my Redeemer lives, and the last on earth, He will endure.

26. And after my skin, they have cut into this, and from my flesh I see judgment.

 

[LoAmmi]

Maybe not in the Tanakh alone, but it is in the New Testament, and the New Testament influences how Christians interpret the Tanakh.

But you know that, LoAmmi, from all the threads you've participated in before.

That's why I say the topic should have been kept narrower in scope to sin in Christianity.

I'm ok and have always been ok with someone telling me that their interpretation or Christian interpretation is different. I am not ok with someone putting their hands on their hips and telling me how wrong my interpretation is and telling me I need to get right with the divine.

 

[Masihi]

25. But I know that my Redeemer lives, and the last on earth, He will endure.

26. And after my skin, they have cut into this, and from my flesh I see judgment.

I don't know about the literal translation, I know how Isaiah 53 is intentionally removed from jewish teachings too.

But how about Proverbs 23:
"For their Redeemer is strong; He will plead their cause against thee."

The redeemer is someone who pleads the case on anothers behalf before a judge. Why in the heavens would YHWH plead to YHWH???

Why would Hashem plead to Hashem???? does not make sense. Try to explain that to me.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't know about the literal translation, I know how Isaiah 53 is intentionally removed from jewish teachings too.

One of the old lies. I hope you are willing to be corrected on this because it has no basis in truth. We haven't cut Isaiah 53 from our text nor do we order people not to learn it.

But how about Proverbs 23:
"For their Redeemer is strong; He will plead their cause against thee."

The redeemer is someone who pleads the case on anothers behalf before a judge. Why in the heavens would YHWH plead to YHWH???

Why would Hashem plead to Hashem???? does not make sense. Try to explain that to me.

Because you are removing it from context.

It says we are not to do things to the fatherless and if we do, HaShem will take up their case against us. In other words, we are going to have to answer to Him if we do these things to orphans.

 

[Masihi]

Here, two individuals are distinctly mentioned, the Lord and the redeemer
Isaiah 41.14
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer , the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Masihi]

This is not out of context. The redeemer pleads to YHWH on behalf of Israel (spiritual or not). Why should Hashem plead to Hashem????

Jeremiah 50.34 "Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. "

Its the same concept as when Moses served as mediator between Israel and YHWH. There is a mediator /redeemer that is in human form.

 

[LoAmmi]

Here, two individuals are distinctly mentioned, the Lord and the redeemer
Isaiah 41.14
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer , the Holy One of Israel.

14. Fear not, O worm of Jacob, the number of Israel; "I have helped you," says the Lord, and your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

I see no reason to believe that is denoting two different individuals. Those would be two scriptures of HaShem. You also seem to be moving away from the Trinity in separating G-d into three, separate, distinct people.

 

[LoAmmi]

This is not out of context. The redeemer pleads to YHWH on behalf of Israel (spiritual or not). Why should Hashem plead to Hashem????

Jeremiah 50.34 "Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon. "

Its the same concept as when Moses served as mediator between Israel and YHWH. There is a mediator /redeemer that is in human form.

You are assuming that "plead" means to take it before someone. I don't see it that way. I see it as HaShem taking up the cause of these things.

 

[Deacon Don]

I think you have been a bit dismissive of my comments a few times
here and that's not really cool.

I haven't been dismissive. I haven't agreed with you.

 

[LoAmmi]

I haven't been dismissive. I haven't agreed with you.

When I describe something isn't called "The Fall" in context of us not seeing it as a fall, saying that it doesn't matter what it's called is dismissive as it isn't addressing the substance of what I said it is merely dismissing it because of a silly reason.

 

[Masihi]

Moses redeemed Israel at the point when YHWH was about to completely destroy them all on Mt Sinai. Moses pleaded on their behalf and YHWH relented. This is the function of a redeemer. History repeats itself my friend; of this I am 100% sure. I suggest you study this further.

 

[LoAmmi]

Moses redeemed Israel at the point when YHWH was about to completely destroy them all on Mt Sinai. Moses pleaded on their behalf and YHWH relented. This is the function of a redeemer. History repeats itself my friend; of this I am 100% sure. I suggest you study this further.

I'm 100% sure you are wrong. I suggest you study more.

 

[Masihi]

I'm 100% sure you are wrong. I suggest you study more.

So you're saying Moses did not plead on Israel's behalf on Mt Sinai.

 

[LoAmmi]

So you're saying Moses did not plead on Israel's behalf on Mt Sinai.

Moses did ask HaShem not to destroy Israel. HaShem listened and didn't destroy Israel. I see no reason to believe this is the thing the Messiah is to do since the Prophets do not describe the future king doing that.

 

[Masihi]

Why do you deny the obvious.

King David pleaded on behalf of Israel a couple of times. Gd would have destroyed many more of Israel had David not intervened. David redeemed also.

 

[LoAmmi]

Why do you deny the obvious.

King David pleaded on behalf of Israel a couple of times. Gd would have destroyed many more of Israel had David not intervened. David redeemed also.

When would He have destroyed Israel were it not for David's intervention?

 

[Deacon Don]

When I describe something isn't called "The Fall" in context of us
not seeing it as a fall, saying that it doesn't matter what it's called
is dismissive as it isn't addressing the substance of what I said it is
merely dismissing it because of a silly reason.

Then you're dismissing me? I've not stated any silly reason for
anything.

 

[Masihi]

When would He have destroyed Israel were it not for David's intervention?

When the angel of the Lord stood to smite many of Israel and David intervened. He then bought the threshing floor of Ornan.

 

[Masihi]

But what do rabbi have to say about the redeemer. He concurs with what Ive been saying; the redeemer is a human. Are you a rabbi to argue with him?

A rabbi said: "the latter redeemer (messiah) will be like the first redeemer (moses). What does the torah say about the first redeemer? He made manna to descend, as it is written, 'behold, I will rain down bread from heaven for you.' In the same way the latter redeemer will make manna to descend."