Sin in Christianity

[LoAmmi]

When the angel of the Lord stood to smite many of Israel and David intervened. He then bought the threshing floor of Ornan.

Are you talking about when a census was ordered or something else?

 

[LoAmmi]

But what do rabbi have to say about the redeemer. He concurs with what Ive been saying; the redeemer is a human. Are you a rabbi to argue with him?

A rabbi said: "the latter redeemer (messiah) will be like the first redeemer (moses). What does the torah say about the first redeemer? He made manna to descend, as it is written, 'behold, I will rain down bread from heaven for you.' In the same way the latter redeemer will make manna to descend."

Ok. How about we define some terms here.

When you say "redeemer" what do you mean? Specifically. Because what we have here is an instance of someone digging though midrash and pulling something out to suit their needs.

Think of it this say: He will be LIKE Moses. Did Moses really make the mana come down? Did Moses really lead people from Egypt? Was it Moses's power that did that or was it HaShem's power? Who should we give credit to? Moses or HaShem?

 

[Zoness]

I think expanding the scope of the question it impossible to discuss fruitfully. Sin is clearly a different matter between Judaism and Christianity, and when bringing in religions with very different foundations...that's just too much.

Well, its sure to be a long thread. I'm sure something interesting will come up.

 

[dlamberth]

Whether or not it's called the fall is irrelevant.

I think it is relevant because from the Christian perspective the Fall is the point of where our sin nature started. With out that moment in time there is no need of a Savior. And that relates directly to the question of what is "sin?



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[Masihi]

Ok. How about we define some terms here.

When you say "redeemer" what do you mean? Specifically. Because what we have here is an instance of someone digging though midrash and pulling something out to suit their needs.

Think of it this say: He will be LIKE Moses. Did Moses really make the mana come down? Did Moses really lead people from Egypt? Was it Moses's power that did that or was it HaShem's power? Who should we give credit to? Moses or HaShem?

Interestingly, why did Hashem not appear and free israel Himself. Rather He sent a human as a mediator. You say Hashem is your redeemer than why bother with Moses, a middleman.

Imagine yourself an israeli slave living under Pharaoh. Every Israeli under Pharaoh probably talked about the same thing that Jews today talk about. I can imagine the people saying "Joseph said Hashem would visit us, free us and take us to the land promised to our fathers" (Genesis 50.24). "Where is Hashem to save us." "Where is our redeemer Hashem".

Lo and behold, the redeemer came, but as a man!!! How could that be? Guided by Hashem, Moses came and redeemed. He later pleaded with Gd to spare their lives for sinning. The mediator Moses of the Israelis.

Where is your redeemer today? Who is your redeemer? He goes by many names, redeemer, moshiach, mediator, etc.

Your redeemer pleads your case for the sins that you cannot propitiate for.

 

[LoAmmi]

Excellent. Yes, Messiah will be a man just as Moses was a man. HaShem will work though Messiah just as HaShem worked through Moses. So, we're in agreement that Messiah is a man just as Moses was a man. Moses's pleading didn't take away Israel's sins. It merely turned away the judgement. The people still had to account for their own sins. In fact, one could see that they clearly didn't have it taken away because those that participated in the event with the Golden Calf did not live to see the promised land.

However, nothing in the Tanakh speaks of Messiah pleading our case for sins we cannot do anything about. In fact, Messiah REBUILDS THE TEMPLE and sacrifices resume just as Ezekiel stated.

 

[Masihi]

Excellent. Yes, Messiah will be a man just as Moses was a man. HaShem will work though Messiah just as HaShem worked through Moses. So, we're in agreement that Messiah is a man just as Moses was a man. Moses's pleading didn't take away Israel's sins. It merely turned away the judgement. The people still had to account for their own sins. In fact, one could see that they clearly didn't have it taken away because those that participated in the event with the Golden Calf did not live to see the promised land.

However, nothing in the Tanakh speaks of Messiah pleading our case for sins we cannot do anything about. In fact, Messiah REBUILDS THE TEMPLE and sacrifices resume just as Ezekiel stated.

You know where this is leading to. Why did the temple fail in 70AD or 30 yrs after His death/resurrection? Why are you not able to build a temple now in the 40 yrs since Jerusalem was taken by Israel? What is stopping Israel? Moses was limited in scope and power. And until the next temple is built, what of the millions of jews that lived between the 2nd and 3rd temples? They are lost in sins, judgement waiting for them. Nothing changes whether there is a temple or not, propitiation is by blood for everyone. Period.

 

[LoAmmi]

You know where this is leading to. Why did the temple fail in 70AD or 30 yrs after His death/resurrection? Why are you not able to build a temple now in the 40 yrs since Jerusalem was taken by Israel? What is stopping Israel? Moses was limited in scope and power. And until the next temple is built, what of the millions of jews that lived between the 2nd and 3rd temples? They are lost in sins, judgement waiting for them. Nothing changes whether there is a temple or not, propitiation is by blood for everyone. Period.

Your biggest error here is one I haven't brought up yet. Besides not being able to back up using the Tanakh that I can only be saved from sin by blood and by making HaShem out to be some sort of bloodthirsty madman that cannot give people mercy or forgiveness unless blood is present, you are putting forth a really bad idea.

You are suggesting that if someone is unable to fulfill one of the laws, it is the same as violating it. One of the commandments is to fast certain days. If someone cannot due to their age or if they are ill or pregnant, your idea says they have violated it. That's insanity and, again, simply paints HaShem as a monster that has no compassion. So, I reject several of your notions that you have thus far been unable to backup with the Tanakh:

1) We need blood to be forgiven of sin. David didn't need blood, Solomon said we didn't need blood, Hosea outright said that we could offer the sacrifices of our lips in prayer to be forgiven. You ignore all of these instances so you can keep your "blood-lust".

2) That if a law cannot be kept due to circumstances beyond the control of the individual, that person is violating the Torah. That is the sign of an evil deity, which HaShem is not.

I will not discuss this with you anymore as you have no interest in countering what I say with the Tanakh but with your own understanding. In a contest between your understanding and the words of the Tanakh, your understanding loses by so much it doesn't even appear to have been in the running.

 

[danny ski]

Here, two individuals are distinctly mentioned, the Lord and the redeemer
Isaiah 41.14
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer , the Holy One of Israel.

"You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be.

I, I am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.

I told and I saved, and I made heard and there was no stranger among you, and you are My witnesses," says the Lord, "and I am God.

Case closed.