Sin Backwards

[KCDAD]

Jesus himself taught the Father requites divine penalties for the infraction of the divine law (apart from the atonement of Christ). Pick up a sermon by John Piper and you will see it there.

John Piper is Jesus' spokeman?
Who in the world is Carmen ... I mean John Piper that I should listen to him?

 

[stumpjumper]

Jesus himself taught the Father requites divine penalties for the infraction of the divine law (apart from the atonement of Christ). Pick up a sermon by John Piper and you will see it there.

Piper. That nutcase Calvinist? No thanks...

I have one book by him and that's enough...

 

[KCDAD]

Well then read Jesus's words yourself -- especailly the parts where he talks about sentences of hell, destruciton, burning, etc. I'm sure there are websites that will give you a fair bit of this info. Piper just honestly reads the bible and reports the ruminations that are presented there: including this rumination: Sometimes, the operation of divine judgment is calculated to destroy rather than correct. Jesus said it. Whethr you believe it i nother matter.

Jesus' words as recording in The New Testament... ok:

any one who says of his brother fool, shall be subject to hell fire (Gehenna)

it is better for one of your members to perish than the whole body be cast into hell (Gehenna again)

Mr 9:43
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. (Gehenna)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers , how can ye
escape the damnation of hell ? (Gehenna again... check out the Greek for damnation ... JUSTICE?)

let's try Luke:
Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power
to cast into hell (Gehenna again but contrasting death with ... what death?)

And in hell he lift up his eyes,
being in torments (here Luke uses Hades... I wonder why?)

And in James:Jas 3:6
And the tongue is a fire , a world of iniquity
so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and
setteth on fire the course of nature ; and it
is set on fire by hell ....(Here it Gehenna)

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (here it is Tartarus... what's the deal? Why not Hades or Gehenna... are there different places of torture? DId Sheol get so full God had to make more?)

BAck to JESUS: Mt 3:2
Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17
From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 10:7
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Lu 21:31
Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
Mt 16:28
Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Lu 23:42,43
And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Joh 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Okay...does it sound like The Kingdom is a long way off... 2000 years... does it sound like The Kingdom is anything other than heaven? Does it sound like one has to go anywhere to find the Kingdom? No it is at hand... right here. Right now. What does it mean to have anything at hand?

 

[UberLutheran]

Why would anyone want to "nis"?

There may be "sin" in "sincere"; but the only "nis" I can think of offhand is a "Nissan" and I drive a VW Beetle!

 

[Mailman Dan]

I don't agree at all. What people love is that vengence is a Godly thing. That is what allows us to act with vengence.

Again, if God is good, should He punish evil? Scripture says the HE will. (And He alone is worthy to make that call, no one else.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Ephesians 5

Walk in Love

1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”


Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


In your mind, your god would not do these things. Scripture paints a God that will bring absolute justice to all evil. However, God is also a God of love. He provided a way that we may be forgiven.


Its why its so important to speard the messsage of the gospel, that one may recievce forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace


Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


Dan~~~>will keep quoting scripture over personal views of God

 

[intricatic]

Here is that Kirk Cameron theology again. If you don't tell the truth you are a liar. If you eat lettuce you are a vegetarian. If you swim you are an amphibian. If you close your eyes you are blind.

kcdad~~~> not surprised that ALOT of people find Christians offensive

...

Okay,

If you don't tell the truth you are a liar

!=

If you eat lettuce you are a vegetarian. If you swim you are an amphibian. If you close your eyes you are blind.

If you don't tell the truth... what is the reverse of truth?

Anyhow, I don't think that vegetarianism. swimming, or blindness are sins that relate to the very core of our natures.

 

[KCDAD]

...If you don't tell the truth... what is the reverse of truth?
Anyhow, I don't think that vegetarianism. swimming, or blindness are sins that relate to the very core of our natures.

error, mistake, misinformation, survival, protecting others, confusion... I can think of all kinds of reasons not to tell the truth.

If someone tells me they find hell in The Bible I don't call them a liar. If someone tells me that Jesus preaches hell I don't call them a liar. If someone tells me that sin is something I do I don't call them a liar. If I were a German in 1936 and a Nazi came asking about known Jews, Gypsies or Homosexuals in my neighborhood I would feel no compulsion against lying.
As to your last comment... you have never had a heated debate with a vegan have you?

 

[intricatic]

error, mistake, misinformation, survival, protecting others, confusion... I can think of all kinds of reasons not to tell the truth.

If someone tells me they find hell in The Bible I don't call them a liar. If someone tells me that Jesus preaches hell I don't call them a liar. If someone tells me that sin is something I do I don't call them a liar. If I were a German in 1936 and a Nazi came asking about known Jews, Gypsies or Homosexuals in my neighborhood I would feel no compulsion against lying.
As to your last comment... you have never had a heated debate with a vegan have you?

There are different contexts to lying. But I think that's more of a philosophical argument than anything else.

In a fallen world, it's an ethical call whether the truth is the best option or not in any given circumstance, but generally when we talk about 'lying' - it's somewhat implied that we're discussing the negative context of that word, and not the neutral one.

And..... .... actually, I have had heated arguments with vegans.

 

[KCDAD]

There are different contexts to lying. But I think that's more of a philosophical argument than anything else.

Certainly. But we live in a fallen world. At least that is the sin argument from Fundamentalists. So lying (if Kirk Cameron is right) is punished by hideous eternity in hell even if it is because a Nazi was looking for Anne Frank in your neighborhood... or because Aunt Martha asked you about her blue hair-do.

 

[Mailman Dan]

The so-called "Gospel" presented by the Bible is simply a chain letter gone out of control --

If you believe this, then what is your source/foundation for your beliefs? If the bible is not recorded history, teachings, and insight into God and the future, what is the source that you value above it?

Does it come from what is constructed in your own mind? If so, then every god from any religion holds the same value, with nothing to stand on other than ones mental image of a god that they opt to believe in.


BTW...are you a confessing Christian?

Dan~~~>not sure if you believe the parts of the bible about Jesus

 

[Cleany]

Again, if God is good, should He punish evil? Scripture says the HE will.

1. scripture also says that he wont.

Jeremiah 31:34

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

2. scripture needs to be understood and interpreted - not simply quoted word for word as if something that was written over 2000 years ago in a different culture on the other side of the world that was written to somebody else actually means anything in its pure form.

3. no matter how much a tradition calls itself "biblical" it is still its own translations. what you are talking about is currently the translation of christian fundementalism, it is fundementalism that says that god will punish evil - not scripture.

If you believe this, then what is your source/foundation for your beliefs? If the bible is not recorded history, teachings, and insight into God and the future, what is the source that you value above it?

the bible is the product of the christian and jewish communities. it comes after these things. the source and foundation for our beliefs is as a faith community. the is true even of you, your ideas about the bible did not magically appear out of nowhere, they are the product of people just as much as the bible is.

we should be aware that it is people worshipping and working out their faith together that is the church. this is christianity. a man alone reading the bible word for word is not christianity. not only should we be aware of this, but we need to trust god and trust the people around us. this is the way jesus intended it - the communion alone stands as an example of how we are meant to work together, even eat together, as we work out our faith and try to understand god.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Uhhhhh... God?

NoCalories~~~> Surprised to see how many, failing to trust God, worship a book.

So how did you decided what God was like? After all, there are ALOT of different books on God. Did you use one, or just build the image in you mind based on personal opinion of what a god should be like?


See the problem?

Dan~~~>just wondering

 

[Mailman Dan]

God himself taught me that the operation of divine judgment upon the unconverted human is calculated for human teaching rather than calculated for human destrction (upon the human or Christ as sacrifice).

God taught you? Does He speak to you, in your mind? If there is no text for you to read, where do you draw His teachings from? Isn't it true they are made in your mind?

How many cults can you name that do that exact smae thing? I know a few.


Dan~~~>doesn't suggest building a god in your mind to fit your own beliefs (that would be idoltry...a very common sin)

 

[KCDAD]

As for cults, Christianity exists as 500,000 + groupings of people who say to one another "try to guess what I have in my mind, if you guess wrongly God will do his dirty work."

Can anyone argue that Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, Coptics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcolpalians (sorry) and Methodists all worship the same God and the same Messiah? Maybe, but certainly you can not say they have the same religion?
Worship and book and you get these different ideas about what it says...
Worship God and the differences melt away as unimpooooooorrrrrrrrrrrtannnnnnnnnnnnnnt...

 

[Mailman Dan]

Yes, God shows himself to me in my mind. If I don't look at texts I wrote on the page, it is because I turn to look at God in the face. And yes, an impression is left on my mind.

As for cults, Christianity exists as 500,000 + groupings of people who say to one another "try to guess what I have in my mind, if you guess wrongly God will do his dirty work."

Calories~~~> doesn't suggest worshipping a book, and knows for certain that either you or I is an idolater given our differences.

The bible proves itself true through prophecy, as shown though history. While some debate certain doctrines from scripture, and much of the OT contains history rather than God's instruction, to toss it out completely can not be done by Christians. It contains teachings and instructions for living, as well as a glimps of God's future plan.

However, if God has only shown Himself to you in your mind, how do you know it to be God? God has (according to some) instructed them to do evil things in dreams and visions. Do they have just as much right to claim God showed them Himself in their mind, even if a mind made god instructed them to do evil? They have the same right to the claim as you....

Dan~~~>suggest taking a look at bible prophecy and history

 

[KCDAD]

The bible proves itself true through prophecy, as shown though history. Dan~~~>suggest taking a look at bible prophecy and history

So how about Jonah? What is the lesson here? That God changes his mind and things prophesized may not come true?

 

[stumpjumper]

The bible proves itself true through prophecy, as shown though history.

Well that's debateable... I think the Bible proves itself true through speaking universal truths that grasp at the core of human existence whether or not what it claims (OT stuff mainly) actually happened. The Bible is a book of faith.

However, if God has only shown Himself to you in your mind, how do you know it to be God? God has (according to some) instructed them to do evil things in dreams and visions.

True.

I believe we can start with the premise that God is love. It worked for this dude:

[bible]1 John 4:16-18[/bible]

And then go from there....

 

[KCDAD]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NoCalories again.
​

 

[Cleany]

The bible proves itself true through prophecy, as shown though history.

if this is your basis for believing in the bible, then presumably you know these proofs off by heart, and they undeoubtedly show that the bible has quite accurately predicted historical events, without ambiguity.

i would like to hear them.

 

[Mailman Dan]

i would like to hear them.

How many?


[FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] False Bible teachers would be money hungry.
They would be smooth talkers, have many followers,
and slur the Christian faith (2 Peter 2:1-3).

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Mankind would be capable of destroying all life (Matthew 24:21-22). Consider that when Jesus made this prediction the armaments of His day were swords and spears. But today, with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, it is possible to wipe out all flesh on planet earth.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] There would be a global cry for peace (1 Thessalonians 5:3).[/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Damascus would be destroyed (Isaiah 17:1, 14; Jeremiah 49:23-27; Amos 1:3-5). Damascus, Syria is increasingly in the news and is extremely anti-Semitic. Many terrorist organizations have their bases in Damascus. God declares that they will become a ruinous heap because they have violently taken what was not theirs.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Chaotic weather would be prevalent (Luke 21:25-26). Jesus foresaw "the seas and the waves roaring" in the last days. He also likened these signs to birth pangs (Matthew 24:8). The Greek word odin, often translated as sorrows in Matthew 24:8, literally means birth pangs. [/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial]Furthermore, the apostle Paul reminded us that the creation itself will be delivered from the curse at the end of the age (Romans 8:21). And that the "the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs" (Romans 8:22). [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial]As delivery draws near, birth pangs always increase in both intensity and frequency. Therefore, the creation itself would travail as the time of delivery draws near. Of course chaotic weather has always existed, but there are indications that we are witnessing an increase in strange weather. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Global communications foreseen (Revelation 11:9-10; 17:8).
The Bible predicts that the entire world will "see" certain events unfold. [/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial]The invention of the television and the deployment of global satellite networks during the 20th century allow news to travel the world at the speed of light for the first time ever. Remember that in the apostle John's day, news traveled at the speed of horseback.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] The Christian gospel would be preached as a warning to all nations (Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10). Today, portions or all of the Bible have been translated into over 2,300 languages and dialects covering over 90% of the world's population.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] There would be a move toward a global government (Daniel 2:40-44; 7:23; Revelation 13:7-8). The former Roman Empire - which encompassed present-day Europe - would revive and eventually dominate the world. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial]The European Union has steadily moved forward in its attempt to unite Europe politically and economically. It has succeeded in creating a European parliament, a court, and a common currency.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] The possesion of Jerusalem would be at the center of international turmoil (Zechariah 12:3). Almost daily the world news reports on the conflict over Jerusalem.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] The fact that God once flooded the earth (the Noahic Flood) would be denied (2 Peter 3:5-6). There is a mass of fossil evidence to prove this fact, yet it is flatly ignored by the scientific world because of its uncanny implication.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Many wars would erupt (Mark 13:7-8). According to Project Ploughshares, there are about 40 armed conflicts in the world today.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] The earth would be filled with violence (Luke 17:26; Genesis 6:11-13). In the United States alone, violent crime has increased nearly 500% since 1960.
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,Arial][FONT=verdana,Arial] Knowledge would increase (Daniel 12:4; Isaiah 11:9). Specifically, this is referring to an understanding of Bible prophecy, but also an increase in scientific knowledge is implied.
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Dan~~~>has 100 more when your done with these
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