Sin Backwards

[Cleany]

what is with this idea of sin and perfection, of purity? why is there such an emphasis on personal sins - on not doing this or that? "dont watch the wrong tv programs, dont be rude to your parents blah blah blah".

is that right? is that what sin is? is that what is wrong with the world - not enough people sitting at home purifying themselves from evil? did jesus say "sit at home and make sure you keep pure and dont have anything to do with the filth of this evil world?

no! if there is anything wrong with this world it is that too many people are sitting at home, desperately trying to apply the gospel to their busy lives and making sure to ignore any idea of a social gospel so that they dont feel guilty.

now i know people are busy, but if they think that it is the "gospel" that god came to the world so that we could eat our meals in peace then they are mistaken, because that isnt "good news" - its a story of what happens to christianity when filtered through generations of conservative family life.

 

[Mailman Dan]

s that what sin is?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

• You shall have no other gods before me.
• You shall not make yourself any graven image. (Idolatry)
• You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
• Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
• Honor your father and mother.
• You shall not kill.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not steal.
• You shall not lie.
• You shall not covet.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”



Jesus brought clearity to the law, showing God judges the thought life... (looking with lust was adulrty of the heart, and hate was murder)

Law used by Jesus
Luke 10, 18 Matt 15, 19



So why did Jesus use the Law?



1 Tim 1:8-10
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


If your found in your sin, you will pay the price.

Heb 9:27.
For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(lawlessness)



Luke 13:3b
[FONT=&quot]"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish." [/FONT]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


God can forgive you for your sin, because of what Jesus did on the cross.



John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Turn from your sin, and place your trust soley in Jesus as payment to God (through His blood) for your sin. Its the only way you can be forgiven. Otherwise we will pay for our sin in hell...



Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Dan~~~>hopes that answers your questions

 

[red77]

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

• You shall have no other gods before me.
• You shall not make yourself any graven image. (Idolatry)
• You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
• Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
• Honor your father and mother.
• You shall not kill.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not steal.
• You shall not lie.
• You shall not covet.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”



Jesus brought clearity to the law, showing God judges the thought life... (looking with lust was adulrty of the heart, and hate was murder)

Law used by Jesus
Luke 10, 18 Matt 15, 19



So why did Jesus use the Law?



1 Tim 1:8-10
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


If your found in your sin, you will pay the price.

Heb 9:27.
For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(lawlessness)



Luke 13:3b
[FONT=&quot]"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish." [/FONT]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


God can forgive you for your sin, because of what Jesus did on the cross.



John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Turn from your sin, and place your trust soley in Jesus as payment to God (through His blood) for your sin. Its the only way you can be forgiven. Otherwise we will pay for our sin in hell...



Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Dan~~~>hopes that answers your questions

Or quite possibly its just created some more...........

 

[Im_A]

what is with this idea of sin and perfection, of purity? why is there such an emphasis on personal sins - on not doing this or that? "dont watch the wrong tv programs, dont be rude to your parents blah blah blah".

is that right? is that what sin is? is that what is wrong with the world - not enough people sitting at home purifying themselves from evil? did jesus say "sit at home and make sure you keep pure and dont have anything to do with the filth of this evil world?

no! if there is anything wrong with this world it is that too many people are sitting at home, desperately trying to apply the gospel to their busy lives and making sure to ignore any idea of a social gospel so that they dont feel guilty.

now i know people are busy, but if they think that it is the "gospel" that god came to the world so that we could eat our meals in peace then they are mistaken, because that isnt "good news" - its a story of what happens to christianity when filtered through generations of conservative family life.

agreed.

prooftext any scripture we want and we can form it to our own views, but especially when the Bible pans out the battle in our spiritual life after a supposed born again experience. all i can say is Paul mentions that we are to work out our own salvation and Paul mentions that a sin to one brother may not be a sin to another. so the focus of how we treat our fellow man is more important than some Christian being nosy into the personal life of another, cause as far as their opinion goes, it is meaningless...especially when another Christians has done exactly what the scritpures tell them.

 

[Im_A]

I believe that most of human evil is dullness, mundaneness, and conformity. Putting an end to evil -- rendering divine judgment upon humanity -- means coaxing people out of their frightened little lives and helping them to become creative and wise souls, who make art, write poetry, and invent new, more hopeful ways of thinking about God-man relations (rather than being capable of only copying and pasting other people's thoughts as a substitute for thinking).

it will never be purged, either until the second coming, or if the second coming already happened as preterists. "sin" and "evilness" is needed to be a Christian. sure people can prooftext verses out. even in isaiah, it mentions God creating evil, so coming from that literal standpoint, there is no way evil will ever be fully purged, because God's glory through His omnipotence, and transcendence can be seen from it, and a reptitious repenting, begging on their knees Christian seems to be the lifestyle a Christian actually wants instead of being born again, and forget confession and repentance.

i don't know if i can see art as part of this, but some artsy stuff can be cool at times i guess

hey btw no calories, i may have mis-read your intentions of your posts, and i apologize for that.

 

[Cleany]

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

• You shall have no other gods before me.
• You shall not make yourself any graven image. (Idolatry)
• You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
• Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
• Honor your father and mother.
• You shall not kill.
• You shall not commit adultery.
• You shall not steal.
• You shall not lie.
• You shall not covet.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”



Jesus brought clearity to the law, showing God judges the thought life... (looking with lust was adulrty of the heart, and hate was murder)

Law used by Jesus
Luke 10, 18 Matt 15, 19



So why did Jesus use the Law?



1 Tim 1:8-10
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


If your found in your sin, you will pay the price.

Heb 9:27.
For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(lawlessness)



Luke 13:3b
[FONT=&quot]"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish." [/FONT]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


God can forgive you for your sin, because of what Jesus did on the cross.



John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Turn from your sin, and place your trust soley in Jesus as payment to God (through His blood) for your sin. Its the only way you can be forgiven. Otherwise we will pay for our sin in hell...



Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Dan~~~>hopes that answers your questions

1. your reply consists of a series of disjointed bible quotes with the occasional note. it is neither an answer nor is it theology.
2. i find your boldening of the word "liar" distasteful and offensive.

 

[Mailman Dan]

your reply consists of a series of disjointed bible quotes with the occasional note. it is neither an answer nor is it theology.

You asked what sin was. I told you with scripture. Thats fine if you don't believe it...

i find your boldening of the word "liar" distasteful and offensive.

Why? Have you ever lied? If so, what do you call someone who tells lies? We are all liars by nature, but it's still a sin..

Dan~~~>not suprised that ALOT of people find scripture offensive

 

[red77]

You asked what sin was. I told you with scripture. Thats fine if you don't believe it...



Why? Have you ever lied? If so, what do you call someone who tells lies? We are all liars by nature, but it's still a sin..

Dan~~~>not suprised that ALOT of people find scripture offensive

I dont think people do think scripture is offensive.....the way its interpreted by people who insist that their interpretation is right and everyone else's is wrong may cause a bit of offence every now and then though......

 

[KCDAD]

Why? Have you ever lied? If so, what do you call someone who tells lies? We are all liars by nature, but it's still a sin..

Dan~~~>not suprised that ALOT of people find scripture offensive

Here is that Kirk Cameron theology again. If you don't tell the truth you are a liar. If you eat lettuce you are a vegetarian. If you swim you are an amphibian. If you close your eyes you are blind.

kcdad~~~> not surprised that ALOT of people find Christians offensive

 

[Cleany]

Why? Have you ever lied? If so, what do you call someone who tells lies? We are all liars by nature, but it's still a sin..

Dan~~~>not suprised that ALOT of people find scripture offensive

you fail to understand that many of the images of god depicted by the bible are culturally influenced human ideas. all your answer did was tell me what middle eastern people thought 2 thousand years ago.

their thinking, and yours is influenced by human ideas. the fact that yours and some of their coincide isnt really surprising.

what also isnt surprising is that though jesus came to teach that being right with god wasnt about not being sinful, people didnt listen. though much of the new testament ideas af atonement are allagorical ways to understanding, and are in no sense the true image of god, even as allegory some of it is dubious.

Why? Have you ever lied? If so, what do you call someone who tells lies? We are all liars by nature, but it's still a sin..

Dan~~~>not suprised that ALOT of people find scripture offensive

the point i was making is that you boldened the word liar in response to my post. what am i supposed to make of that? either call me a liar, or explain why you choose to bolden the word liar out of others.

Cleany~~~>not surprised that some people dont understand the nature of scripture

 

[Mailman Dan]

the point i was making is that you boldened the word liar in response to my post. what am i supposed to make of that? either call me a liar, or explain why you choose to bolden the word liar out of others.

If you want to know why the word is in bold, its simply because I did a word search through biblegateway. It highlights the keys words you type in.


Like this one..

Proverbs 19:23[FONT=&quot]
The fear of the LORD leads to life:

Its an auto thing...

[/FONT] Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

See?

kcdad~~~> not surprised that ALOT of people find Christians offensive

That should explain to you why so many of them in the NT lost their life for the gospel. This world doesn't like the message, or the messangers.

John 15:18
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.

Dan~~~>can see clear arrow envy as well (though it's not a sin under the law)

 

[Cleany]

If you want to know why the word is in bold, its simply because I did a word search through biblegateway. It highlights the keys words you type in.

so you used the biblegateway to search for scriptures with the word "liar" in response to my post? you dont perhaps think it tactful or diplomatic not to tell me this or to remove the boldening?

This world doesn't like the message, or the messangers.

John 15:18
If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.

oh well its alright then.

No Calories ~~~~~> Not surprised that tons of people like passive aggressive means of communication.

very good.

Cleany~~~>not surprised that people use their intelligence and insight for sarcasm rather than theology

 

[KCDAD]

John 15:18
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.

Dan~~~>can see clear arrow envy as well (though it's not a sin under the law)

Ahh...I have to bring out the context flag... 15 minutes for out of context proofing...
We are called to love one another, and by our fruits we will be known.(not by our words or necklaces or tatoos) If the world hates us it is because we are not of this world... and they are jealous and envious... (this is the obvious inferrence to be made) The world shouldn't hate us for what we teach or believe... but because we bear fruit and live in the garden whilst they dwelleth yet in the world.

 

[KCDAD]

kcdad~~~~> can analyze scripture with the best of em (but doesn't spell well)

 

[stumpjumper]

what is with this idea of sin and perfection, of purity? why is there such an emphasis on personal sins - on not doing this or that? "dont watch the wrong tv programs, dont be rude to your parents blah blah blah"..

I agree. This is wierd because I just started a thread in WWMC on this exact same topic. I read an article this weekend in sojourners that focused on the same issue. The issue of compassion and justice over purity and how that was the main mission of Jesus.

Here's the article: http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=Soj0604&article=060420

Interesting parallel between Jesus here and Isaiah 61:

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

Instead of focusing on purity, as some Jewish sects of the day were, Jesus focused on love, social justice, inclusion of those other excluded, and equality. Not purity and holiness as prophets like Ezra did but on the compassion and equality of Isaiah...

 

[stumpjumper]

That should explain to you why so many of them in the NT lost their life for the gospel. This world doesn't like the message, or the messangers.

That's not always true. When the messenger do all things in love and follow teachings like this:

[bible]James 1:27[/bible]

Instead of quoting hellfire and brimstone passages if Christians would live a life of love the world will respond in kind...

Not always but sometimes. We have faith, hope, and love and the greatest of these is love. When we follow those three Christians truly can be the light of the world...

 

[Cleany]

i agree with mailman Dan that humans do not like the message that God requites evil with destruction.

well you both obviously love it

 

[KCDAD]

i agree with mailman Dan that humans do not like the message that God requites evil with destruction.

I don't agree at all. What people love is that vengence is a Godly thing. That is what allows us to act with vengence. We can bomb the heck outta the bad guys because they attacked us first and they deserve it. We can beat the crap outta someone who calls us a racial epithet becuase they deserve it...it is divine retribution.
What the world hates is Jesus' message... do not return evil for evil. Love your enemies, pray for those that persecute you. Blessed are the peacemakers. merciful, they that morn... the world hates that message. They love the hell message. It always applies to "them" and not to "us".

 

[stumpjumper]

Hella disappointed, that's what. Like they've been taken for a ride.

Of all the solutions to concocted problems that your religion offers, it does not offer the one thing needful of humans -- guided repentance. Repentance, not conversion, but repentance. There is no purgatory in the Bible. yet That is the only thing we genuinely could benefit from..

Well Catholics would definitely disagree that the Bible does not mention purgatory. As a place of extrinsic purging maybe not but a place of an instrinsic cleansing of sins there are definitely scripture that describe that type of situation..

How the teachings of Jesus are not guided repentence I have no idea. Most people would say that they are...

 

[stumpjumper]

Jesus's moral intructions, juxtaposed against his teaching that he requites deviation with destruction, is like a malicious threat at best and an unsupported mandate at best..

Or... That view is based upon a poor interpretation of the Gospel accounts of Jesus' teaching. Gehanna referenced the adverse affects of our choices in this life and certainly did not mean destruction at the end of our life.

Does this teaching focus on this life or the next?:

Luke 6
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit.

​

When you correctly answer that question you know the meaning of living within God's grace in this very life.

No threat of hellfire required...