Sin and guilt

[blackribbon]

What is "sin" then?

 

[dayhiker]

Sin is missing the mark, what every is not of faith is sin. What isn't of loving God and people is sin.

 

[blackribbon]

Sin is missing the mark, what every is not of faith is sin. What isn't of loving God and people is sin.

Where is the "mark" to know when you are missing it?

And what about when loving one person hurts another?

It is a good start but it is a fuzzy definition. There are way too many things that are not sin nor faith. Breathing or taking a shower are non-events.

And is it "sin" to watch a sporting event? That wastes time and our focus isn't on God or people? How about a movie that shows non-Christian behavior even if it is funny? Do these things constitute "sin"? (sometimes I do want to say yes for the very reasons that they aren't using our time to edify God).

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Where is the "mark" to know when you are missing it?

And what about when loving one person hurts another?

It is a good start but it is a fuzzy definition. There are way too many things that are not sin nor faith. Breathing or taking a shower are non-events.

And is it "sin" to watch a sporting event? That wastes time and our focus isn't on God or people? How about a movie that shows non-Christian behavior even if it is funny? Do these things constitute "sin"? (sometimes I do want to say yes for the very reasons that they aren't using our time to edify God).

The Mark is as follows :
a. What Gods Word says to do or says not to do.
b. The very character, person, and nature of God himself (fidelity to the Original)
c. Your Moral Conscience with the Holy Spirit quickening it at the time youre deciding whether its right or wrong.

How does loving One person, hurt Another ? We would have to have the short story on that to determine .

Breathing and taking a shower are good things to do (rest assured)

God wants and expects us to have recreational activities in our life and so long as they aren't in violation of a, b, or c above...then they fall into the Freedom of Christ for our lives. God doesn't expect we devote every single second to him ... he realizes our lives are made up of many many different things ; he just wants and hopes we will put him first and not have any other Idols but him.

 

[blackribbon]

How does loving One person, hurt Another ? We would have to have the short story on that to determine .

Encouraging an abused spouse to exit a unhealthy marriage harms the children many times. I can come up with more.

Breathing and taking a shower are good things to do (rest assured)

At best these are neutral things...I can come up with many examples when they are not "good".

God wants and expects us to have recreational activities in our life and so long as they aren't in violation of a, b, or c above...then they fall into the Freedom of Christ for our lives. God doesn't expect we devote every single second to him ... he realizes our lives are made up of many many different things ; he just wants and hopes we will put him first and not have any other Idols but him.

And can you back this statement with scripture or is it just your opinion...because I can find many verses that say that every moment of our lives are to be aimed at devoting our minds and lives to God?

(please note, I do not intent be confontational, but rather am really wondering deeply about these things...and what is sin)

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Encouraging an abused spouse to exit a unhealthy marriage harms the children many times. I can come up with more.

At best these are neutral things...I can come up with many examples when they are not "good".



And can you back this statement with scripture or is it just your opinion...because I can find many verses that say that every moment of our lives are to be aimed at devoting our minds and lives to God?

(please note, I do not intent be confontational, but rather am really wondering deeply about these things...and what is sin)

I sense you are sincere, so no problem.

As to your scenario, sometimes we are called to do the HIGHER form of ethics ...that is.... if a wife is being severely abused and her life is in danger, that would supercede the concern for the children having disruption or emotional turmoil in their life from mom and kids walking out of a dangerous situation. In fact, there is even a scenario where it is best to lie in order to accomplish a HIGHER good...for instance : If a gun toting Burglar breaks into your house and asks if there are any children upstairs and announces that he wants to kill them, it is the HIGHER good for you to lie and tell him that you are the only one home. But in nearly every situation, a, b, and c that I mentioned above in the other post would be the criteria to go by.

Practically, do you believe EVERY single second can and is devoted to God alone in your life or anyone elses life ? We all have to work, socialize, fix things, shop, drive, fish, work, socialize, fish, et al..... so I don't believe it is possible to devote every moment to God. Now, scripture does say to do things to the glory of God and let your speech be wholesome and God honoring, and to serve him zealously , etc....but many places in scripture especially in Proverbs and Psalms , tell us AS WE GO THRU OUR LIVES let us do good to Others, love others, love God, be a good example at work, treat others fairly, respect Others, etc.... In other words, these things are to be our lifestyle but they cant and wont always be carried out every single second of each and every day. In fact, there are times when we are so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good !

Can you give the scripture that we are to devote our Minds 'every moment' to God ? I haven't run across that one before. Perhaps in Heaven we will be able to, but, realistically in this earthly life of duties, obligations, career, disruptions, etc... it is not possible .

 

[dayhiker]

black .. I agree with what David has said.

I do look at a shower a little differently. I often strand in a shower and thank God for how good it feels to have that water cleaning and flowing over me. To thank God is an act of faith. Since we are to be thankful for all things its pretty easy generally to live in faith. I've never kept tract of how many times a day I think God for things, but its many times a day I think God for something that is around me or I'm experiencing.

We all know there are many aspects of love. The simplest in my mind is Paul saying love doesn't hurt your neighbor. So stealing would be hurting him. Thus not doing something hurtful to him. With this definition we can express love to everyone in the world. Then there is seeing a neighbor in need and helping him getting that need meet. This a more proactive expression of love. But clearly we can't meet needs of very many people. We are to limited in finance and time.

I also think we need to be clear on what hurting another person. If we make a commitment to take someone to the story to buy their weekly groceries and then don't show up to take them then we hurt them. But if we say we have other commitments and can't take them this time and they feel hurt. Then its their issue as they put an expectation on us that we can't meet.

I have had to deal with this quite a bit in my relationship with B. She had a whole agenda for me when we meet. I told her up front what I could give her and what I couldn't give her. But she kept asking for more than I could give. I had to say, I said at the beginning that I couldn't give you that and I still can't. Now she was very hurt that I couldn't give her what she wanted. But that hurt came from her expecting me to do something that I had clearly said I couldn't do.

 

[dayhiker]

black, I think some of what your experiencing is the Protestant work ethic. While Christian groups, like the Puritans after their 1st year of failure developed a very good work ethic that saved their lives. There is an intensity in work that came with the industrial age were we had assembly lines we labors had to be on the line all the time it was moving and had to work faster if the line was sped up. We still have quite a bit of that in us today. But things have not always been that fast.
Before electricity there was little work that could be done after it got dark. So for most of history people didn't work hardly at all for 12 hrs a day. In NT times the free Romans stopped work about 2-3PM and went to the public bath to relax or lift weights til it was time to go home for the evening meal about 5pm.
So I really believe that this work work from 5AM till 10PM is a very new things and is put on us more by American industry and our government who wanting us to produce a lot so we can dominate the world. The other 6.7 billion people.

There is also the idea, I hear it once in a while, that the work of our hands are praise to God. So a nurse that even if she isn't consciously thinking of God yet when she helps someone has praised God with that act. I really do agree with that and feel it should be preached more. But its been a while since I've heard that idea developed from scripture so I don't even know where to go to get that idea developed.

 

[blackribbon]

I understand that God intended us to "rest" and refresh our souls...but it can be done without idle time or filling our heads with less than Godly thoughts...which is what many of us call "recreation". I do them...several of my favorite tv shows are probably less than Godly and I do need the "down" time....but if we are going to talk about "compromising" or talking ourselves into thinking something sinful isn't so bad, then it needs to be addressed in the little areas as well as the big areas.

 

[dayhiker]

Yes, if one things their are sinful, leading to sinful thoughts or compromising ones faith, then yes, I'd say it needs to be addressed.

One of the times I got into legalism was when I took the verse about taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ literally. I was about 23 and every thought I had for a month I asked if it was of God or Satan. The ones I thought were of Satan I put out of my mind immediately. I didn't have a time limit of a month when I started.
At the end of a month I was forced to reevaluate. I felt very righteous, but I think it was self righteous. I didn't feel closer to God, actually I felt like the Holy Spirit had backed away from me. I was emotionally tired. I wasn't enjoying my walk with Christ. So the only good thing was the righteous which I suspected wasn't God's righteousness but a self-righteousness.
I didn't have a new plan of how to live holy, but I knew that one didn't work. So I stopped. Almost immediately I started to sense the Holy Spirit working in my life again.

I think its like the rich man that came to Jesus asking what he was suppose to do. Jesus said to love God and people. He replied I've done that from my youth. If he had let it go at that, he could have known he was doing what Jesus asked of him. But he asked what more he could do. Its subjective to come up with a motive as to why he wanted God to ask more of him. We have all heard reasons given by friends and preachers. But if we were to ask God like the rich man did to give us a harder quest to obey, I have know doubt that the infinite God who knows our heart can find a quest that will be as hard or even harder than we think we want to prove we love him. Then we will either work very hard to fulfill it because we asked for it and God gave it to us or we will like the rich ruler say we can't go there and feel a separation from God.

I'm keeping my faith simple after those starts and stops of my younger zealous days. Jesus said His yoke was easy and His burden is light. So as I've said before, I am just trying to be a friend of people because Jesus said if I've done it unto the least of these I've done it unto Him. Wow is this working for me. Its amazing.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

And there in lies the problem....not keeping it simple. People get so frustrated at Christianity because as humans we all want to "do something" and to be saved we can do NOTHING except believe in Jesus and what He did on the cross for us.

And if some of us would just concentrate on what WE are doing, and how OUR walk is going instead of focusing on what others are doing we would be better off, IMO.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

................................
And if some of us would just concentrate on what WE are doing, and how OUR walk is going instead of focusing on what others are doing we would be better off, IMO.

Actually, the biblical mandate for all Christ Followers , is to focus on our own Walk as well as being our Brothers/Sisters Keeper in case we see them straying . If we see them straying, then we go to them lovingly and point out the error of their ways in hopes they will change. America at one time , used to have this widespread Mindset but that was back when people still wanted to know what was right from wrong and was interested in doing right. Today, the secular thought as well as Church thought is : Who gives a flip.

 

[iambren]

I think having the mind of Christ comes from reading His Word. As we think like Him we know how to stay on the right path.

The Holy Spirit that lives within us helps lead us also,however there are those OCD types or easily-guilted types that may need counseling on the way.

There is the body and spiritual elders that can give us wisdom to help define sin,especially the ethical close struggles in life.

I did my sin with my eyes wide open. I literally felt like I was parched in a desert waiting to die when I met this woman. The intimacy,hugs,encouraging words,warmth in conversation,shared laughter ministered to me primarily. Sex was not the focus but yes,it happened. It really is hard to repent of what was so healing at the time but my way was wrong.

How then could God have been part of my life properly? This may offend some but I offer this as MY opinion. I believe church discipline is in order for the man or woman who sexually cuts off their mate. The offended spouse has no support other than the body. If confronted and the rejector keeps rejecting they are asked not to return/attend that local body. The rejector is treated as an unbeliever who has deserted the marriage and a divorce is appropriate. That's the personal stuff.

Here's another one out of a Christian Ethics course I took. A Christian jet bomber flies over the enemy,duh. When he's shot down,wounded in the fuselage of the plane,enemy soldiers are running toward him he pops a cyanide tablet in his mouth. He knows he would be tortured,would eventually break, and give up war-plans that would lead to 100s of deaths.

Did he sin?

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

I say no, but even if the answer is yes, God can forgive him still, I believe.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

once again David we disagree (surprise!) IF you are close to the person, and are able to talk to them lovingly, then YES, but we are not to go around pointing out everyone else's sin that we see and if I'm wrong and you are right, then God can correct me. And it's in HIM that I put my trust.

 

[dayhiker]

I'm not going to tell a guy who is almost certain to be tortured to not commit suicide. As for if that is a sin, I'll also leave that up to God. If I were God, I'd not call it a sin. One of the main components of sin is hurting someone else. Which this wouldn't do.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

Great Gospel and Law message, about how churches confuse the two. When this happens the church doesn't preach Christ much but it beats people up because they don't perfectly practice the law. Then the only solution they give people is to be better or try harder. So people leave the church, thinking salvation is all about what good works they can do to earn God's favor.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-lawgospel-rant

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Kind of reminds me of how the people got mad at Jesus for healing someone on the Sabbath. Or how they would get mad if someone tried to save their donkey because it was stuck in a ditch and it was the Sabbath.

I think God judges our hearts and if the pilot had a good heart whilst considering the protection of the people I don't think God would consider it sin, but even if He did consider it sin, he is the ultimate forgiver of sin, so I will let God handle that also.

Curious what your Christian ethics class had to say about it.

 

[iambren]

Michelle.I had this one guy in my small group that adopted the mantra--"How can I love someone that I don't know". There was some truth to his words. This is why I don't give much care to the Swaggerts,the Olsteens etc,what would it be of my business to go up and point out their sins? I may have an opinion about their conduct but they are not part of me any more than my town mayor.

That's sin in breadth,my dilemna was sin in depth(defined). Even if you conur with the biblical sin stated,then see an alternate path that SEEMS more edifying it's a tough stand. All I can know is to believe being solid with God's laws He will ultimately bring things around for the good.

 

[blackribbon]

Can you give the scripture that we are to devote our Minds 'every moment' to God ? I haven't run across that one before. Perhaps in Heaven we will be able to, but, realistically in this earthly life of duties, obligations, career, disruptions, etc... it is not possible .

Prov 3:6
In everything you do, put God first, and he will direct you and crown your efforts with success.

Col 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 Thess 5:16-18


Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.


And that is just a start....


And how sad is it to say that we wouldn't want to spend every moment focused on God. If He truly is our first love and our "world", we should long to spend our thoughts and time wanting to just "be with" Him. If are heart is where is should be, shouldn't we long to spend more time and not needing some time to ourselves...



Doing everything for God doesn't have to be all work...but it would mean purging our lives of some of the things we take for granted....



Could this be on par with Matt 19:24 ... Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.