Sin and Eternal Life

[Eila]

Wait wait! Do you mean after we have accepted Christ we can never sin again, or that our Spirit cannot be practicing sin?

Our spirit is perfect because it has been recreated in Christ Jesus. Our actions are not perfect. We may sin in our actions but it doesn't impact our perfect spirit, That perfectness is based on Jesus' perfection and not mine.

But you've already established that whoever is in Christ does not, and cannot sin. Babes/Adults in Christ do not sin. I agree with almost all you have said so far, its just that we're back in this territory where it seems you believe sin does not lose your salvation.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 John 2:1

Yes those in Christ can sin in their actions. But that sin is not counted against them. I like the verse you quoted. If anyone does sin we have an Advocate - Jesus Christ the righteous. Jesus' blood settles the issue every time. It is His perfection that the Father sees, not my sins.

When I say a Christian does not sin I am not referring to the acts of sin, but to the imputation of sin. In verse 9 it says "9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Born again children of God cannot have sin counted against them because it is His seed that is in us. We have been made new with a perfect spirit perfected in Christ.

Verse 5-6 says "5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him". I

n Him there is no sin.
In Him is where I reside.
In Him there is only righteousness.
If I am sinning it is because I have never seen Him or known Him - I am not saved - I have never been saved.

Wait, don't Christians still sin? Yes they do. But Christians who are in Him have an Advocate! Jesus is my Substitute. His righteousness is all the Father sees. Praise God!

Nowhere in Scripture is there a tolerance for sin: of the heathen, babes, or mature in Christ. Hebrews tells us that if we go on sinning consciously after receiving knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sin. And our sin cannot be overlooked if they are not repented of.

Hebrews 10:26 "26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]."

If you take this text to mean what you are saying then there is no hope for anyone. All sin by a Christian is willfull and intentional. Sinners sin without thinking about it. Christians have to go against the leading of the Spirit and against their new nature to sin. This text says that there is NO MORE sacrifice for sin. Confessing and repenting when there is no more sacrifice for sin will do nothing.

I think what Matthew Henry says in his commentary relates my position about this verse "The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour; despise and resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life"

What was silly? I think it was a legitimate question!

Love supercedes the 10 commandments.

The Ten Commandments are in no way conflicting with the Law of Christ. The main difference between the two Covenants is that one was required to be binded externally by the Israelites themselves, whereas in the New, God Himself binds it to our hearts and to our minds. The Ten Words do not cease to exist. They are still very much part of the New Covenant. John saw flashes of lightning and thunder when the Ark of the Covenant was revealed in Heaven, as the final phase of judgment. Significant? Methinks, yes!

No, no, no the main difference between the 2 covenants is that one is based on works and the other is based on His work.

Jesus didn't come to just make the 10 commandments change places. He did so much more!! The Gentiles before Christ had the law on their hearts. Romans 2 "14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

We have never been saved by works either in the Old or New, agreed? So, what's the beef with the Ten Words? The Fourth? Hmm......

So, what's the beef with the commandments listed in 1 John, hmm?

Had a great one, thanks! Getting a PS3 hehe!

It took me a little while to figure out what PS3 was, but I've got it now. Glad you got what you wanted

 

[reddogs]

There is a problem with "cannot fall into sin like Adam", that is not correct as even Jesus could have fallen into sin, so if we say we cannot fall that is the fallacy of "once saved always saved" which we have already agreed is not truth. Now if we say by faith as the bible teaches:

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 3:21-28


Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Eila]

There is a problem with "cannot fall into sin like Adam", that is not correct as even Jesus could have fallen into sin, so if we say we cannot fall that is the fallacy of "once saved always saved" which we have already agreed is not truth. Now if we say by faith as the bible teaches:

But you see Jesus didn't sin and we have His righteousness. We cannot fall into sin and have sin count against us because we have His righteousness. There is no sin against Jesus. He stands before the Father on my behalf. He is our righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1 "28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.""

 

[reddogs]

By faith we have His righteousness, but we can fall into sin as Jesus was tempted and could have fallen, just as we are tempted and can fall. That has not been taken away, the devil is still here and anyone that says we cannot sin is not correct as the Bible clearly says not to yield to sin as we can be tempted and can fall.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The belief that you can not fall into sin once you believe or fall back into sin is really the false belief of "once saved always saved" which is a variation of saved by (your own) works, as its adherents feel that they have worked and gotten salvation so they now have divine pardon for any sin they do instead of repenting from them and letting God work within them. Many "righteous christians" who believed this false belief and said the same thing that "they could never fall back into sin", fell into sexual or other vices and types of sin, then they tried to say that it "wasnt sin', that they weren't "bound by the law" so the adultery was OK, even as they divorced their spouse.

This is the same type of lie the serpent used on Eve, that she could do what she wanted and it wasnt sin. I had a friend that was very beautiful and she told me that she got 'hit on and more proposals to sin' from 'married christians' in church than when she was out on South Beach in Miami, so dont try and tell me that christians can't fall into sin.

 

[Eila]

By faith we have His righteousness, but we can fall into sin as Jesus was tempted and could have fallen, just as we are tempted and can fall. That has not been taken away, the devil is still here and anyone that says we cannot sin is not correct as the Bible clearly says not to yield to sin as we can be tempted and can fall.

We can be tempted and sin, but when we are in Christ it is all based on His righteousness, not our own.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Yes, we should not sin. We should yield ourselves to God.

Romans 6 says "
10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

We are not under the power and dominion of sin anymore. We are to yield ourself to God's ways and not sin. We died and now have our life in Him.

"15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. "

We are free from sin!!! Praise God!! Does that mean we should sin, by no means. We are free from the power of sin so we can now live for Him.

The belief that you can not fall into sin once you believe or fall back into sin is really the false belief of "once saved always saved" which is a variation of saved by (your own) works, as its adherents feel that they have worked and gotten salvation so they now have divine pardon for any sin they do instead of repenting from them and letting God work within them.

I don't see how you say OSAS is salvation by works. Most adherents are far from that idea.

Many "righteous christians" who believed this false belief and said the same thing that "they could never fall back into sin", fell into sexual or other vices and types of sin, then they tried to say that it "wasnt sin', that they weren't "bound by the law" so the adultery was OK, even as they divorced their spouse.

This is the same type of lie the serpent used on Eve, that she could do what she wanted and it wasnt sin. I had a friend that was very beautiful and she told me that she got 'hit on and more proposals to sin' from 'married christians' in church than when she was out on South Beach in Miami, so dont try and tell me that christians can't fall into sin.

Christians can sin, but that sin does not count against them. As 1 John 2 says "MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action]."

He took my place and when I sin Christ Advocates for me because His blood already took care of it. When I come to Christ my spirit is born again. It is recreated with His perfection.

Maturity is the process of that perfection being reflected in my actions. Yes, Christians sin, but we are not like Adam. Adam fell into sin. We have already been perfected with His perfection and cannot fall into sin because He didn't fall into sin.

 

[reddogs]

You are saying something a bit different now that "Christians can sin, but that sin does not count against them..", yes that is true, but that is if they turn it over to Christ and His grace. Most sinners (and a lot of christians) dont do that and continue into sin till it takes them over, or if christians, they completely fall back into sin and lose their way.

Now for the other part "when we are in Christ it is all based on His righteousness, not our own." Many christians 'claim' they are "In Christ" when in fact they are not as they as still under the "power and dominion of sin" and are just saying they are "In Christ" so they can continue in sin. I've seen it many times, and like sleaker said, it is a "cheap grace" and telling them its imposible to sin or 'it doesnt count' gives them cover.

What I have seen is that a lot of 'christians' will try to find any excuse to allow them to enjoy and fall into sin with 'gusto' as long as no one finds out. Then when the subsequent divorce or other results of sin happens they deny it was wrong or deny that the bible identifies their "specific" sin or other manipulation so they never admit to any sin.

So saying that you "cannot sin", or that even for those who continue in sin or love sin that their "sins are automatically forgiven" means that those who give lip service or even the Devil would fall under this catagory.

That is why the law defines and allows us to identify sin, it allows for the sinner to recognize it and confess it and turn it over to Christ and His grace. If not, you are living in sin, you are not yielding ourself to God's ways, you have fallen back into sin and are under the power and dominion of sin.

 

[Eila]

You are saying something totally different now that "Christians can sin, but that sin does not count against them..", yes that is true, but that is if they turn it over to Christ and His grace. Most sinners (and a lot of christians) dont do that and continue into sin till it takes them over, or if christians, they completely fall back into sin and lose their way.

No, I'm not saying something different. Christians sin. That sin has already been taken care of.

It does not count against them because of what Jesus did, not because we ask forgiveness and confess. Sinners are not Christians. Christians are not sinners. We are not simply forgiven. We are perfected. Sin does not count against us because Jesus' blood paid the price for us once for all.

Now for the other part "when we are in Christ it is all based on His righteousness, not our own." Many chistians 'claim' they are "In Christ" when in fact they are not as they as still under the "power and dominion of sin" and are just saying they are "In Christ" so they can continue in sin. I've seen it many time, and like sleaker said, it is a "cheap grace" and telling them its imposible to sin or 'it doesnt count' gives them cover.

You are judging the Bible according to the experiences of people. The Bible says He is our Righteousness. The Bible says we are in Christ. I don't know what Christians you associate with, but I don't know of any that do as you suggest. I don't know of any that just say they are "in Christ" so they can sin. On the contrary I have seen so much more sin when around those who believe they must obtain their own righteousness. But I cannot base my theology on experiences, but on what the Bible actually says.

I could take that beautiful girl to any church that preaches that you "can't fall into sin" and I guarrantee a good portion of the "married christians" would be interested or want to have a adulterous tryst or other sexual sin without so much as batting a eyelash.

What??? Where do you get this information? Such an accusation is very silly. If you take that girl to a church that is Christian in culture only then I would agree with you. You will not find that in a church that teaches that we have His righteousness and that He now lives in us guiding us. I challenge you, come bring that girl to my church. It is even discouraged for a married person to be alone in public or private with someone of the opposite gender for the sake of appearances.

What I have seen is that most 'christians' will try to find any excuse to allow them to enjoy and fall into sin with 'gusto' as long as no one finds out. Then when the subsequent divorce or other results of sin happens they deny it was wrong or deny that the bible identifies their "specific" sin or other manipulation so they never admit to any sin.

Christians don't enjoy sin. They have tremendous conviction because they have God living inside of them. Who are all these Christians you are talking about?

So saying that you "cannot sin", or that even for those who continue in sin or love sin that their "sins are automatically forgiven" means that even the Devil would fall under this catagory.

Jesus didn't die for the devil or the angels. Hell was made for the devil and the angels, not man. Man will go there only because he has not accepted Jesus. You must stand before God in Jesus' righteousness or your own. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, not to restore the devil. The devil is defeated.

That is why the law identifies sin, it allows for the sinner to recognize it and confess it and turn it over to Christ and His grace. If not, you are living in sin, you are not yielding ourself to God's ways, you have fallen back into sin and are under the power and dominion of sin.

If someone is continuing in sin I've found it is usually because:

1. They are not listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit
2. They are in a church that teaches works or the law.
3. They were never saved and filled with the Spirit.

 

[reddogs]

See thats the confusions that sets in if you do away with the divine standard, you allow "Sinners that are not Christians" to pretent they are "christians" since there is no way to diferentiate, as you have discarded the basics of what shows you sin and you negate at even looking if they "bear fruit". Any sinner can give lip service and then declare themselves 'saved and incapbable of sin' and they dont have to be changed or turn from sin.........


What you say here:

"If someone is continuing in sin I've found it is usually because:

1. They are not listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit
2. They are in a church that teaches works or the law.
3. They were never saved and filled with the Spirit."

..is exactly my point, we only hear or see the outside, only God and His Son Jesus Christ see the heart and truly juge that a christian has " God living inside of them", and trust me there are a lot of "cheap grace" christians under the power and dominion of sin and pretending when they see you and fooling you......

Matthew 23:28
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

 

[Eila]

..is exactly my point, only God and His Son Jesus Christ can say for sure that a christian has "have God living inside of them"

Yes, I agree we cannot judge their heart. Only God knows their heart.

, and trust me there are a lot of "cheap grace" christians under the power and dominion of sin and pretending when they see you and fooling you......

Because there are some Christians who don't understand who God made them to be doesn't mean that the Bible ceases to be true. He is our Righteousness. We cannot base our theology on our experiences or other's experiences, but on what the Bible says.

Matthew 23:28
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Yes, these people were not born again. No one was. They were keepers of the law, yet full of sin because that was their nature. I'm not sure what your point was regarding this text though. Weren't you saying that the outside or the works of Christians were not righteous? If you reverse this text it would say on the outside you appear as unrighteous, but on the inside you are full of righteousness.

 

[reddogs]

You are trying to 'decide' who is righteous by 'looking on the outside' or from what they tell you and then declare them "christians" and say 'they cannot sin', and that is a divine judgement not for man to say. That is why we live by and our salvation is by FAITH, for if we decide who has "God living inside of them" then WE are doing salavation by ourselves, WE decide who is going to be 'saved', better to leave that to the One who knows all.

By this logic you could declare child molester a "christian" and then have that person say he is without sin and cannot sin even as he continues in sinning.....

 

[Eila]

You are trying to 'decide' who is righteous by 'looking on the outside'

Not sure where you get that from. Who am I judging by looking on the outside? I keep talking about the righteousness on the inside.

or from what they tell you and then declare them "christians" and say 'they cannot sin', and that is a divine judgement not for man to say.

Do you believe what the Bible says is God's will or the truth? I don't declare them righteous, God does. All who come to Jesus and receive Him as their Savior are saved according to the Bible. The Bible is the Word of God. The Word of God declares what is true.

That is why we live by and our salvation is by FAITH, for if we decide who has "God living inside of them" then WE are doing salavation by ourselves, WE decide who is going to be 'saved', better to leave that to the One who knows all.

Do you believe in Bible is God's Word to us? Do you believe that what it says we can rely on? I didn't make this up. This is God's Word that says we are saved. The One Who knows all is the One who is behind the Bible.


Hebrews 11 says " NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]."

Faith is assurance.

1 John 4 says we can have assurance that we are saved:

"17In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world."

 

[reddogs]

The plane ticket is like faith, it is that assurance that you have a ride on that plane. But until you get aboard and fly away, you can "change your mind" or have someone "convince you" not to go. I am not saying you will, but that is why it is "salvation by faith"......

 

[Eila]

The plane ticket is like faith, it is that assurance that you have a ride on that plane. But until you get aboard and fly away, you can "change your mind" or have someone "convince you" not to go. I am not saying you will, but that is why it is "salvation by faith"......

You mention "salvation by faith". What is this faith in? Do you have faith that God will make the right decision about your destination or that you are saved right now? You have assurance that you will be saved if you are on board the plane or is your assurance that you will be on the plane?

Romans 8 says "23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. "

If you are waiting to see yourself sitting on the plane to believe you are saved then it is not faith. Faith is believing in things you cannot see.

 

[reddogs]

Faith in Jesus Christ and his righteousness, not self.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Eila]

Faith in Jesus Christ, not self

How is believing you are saved right now believing in yourself?