Silencing Christians

Phinehas2 · Mar 25, 2008

Dear CriticalMassKitten,

This is a parade for people to say they're ok with who they are, and yet these people came in and told them they're going to hell. I'd say that's harassment. If it was gays going into a church telling Christians they're wrong, I'd be saying the same thing. Reversed, of course

I have sympathy with this, its a valid point. However as it is a public display, its in the public arena and many parades have counter parades within the law. In some respects gay and lesbian groups seem to be objecting to any free speech if it is against what they believe. Yet I would say its insensitive for Christians to propose Biblical standards to people who dont believe. Christians would be better telling of the gospel of Jesus Christ, if people chose to follow Jesus Christ, it is Jesus Christ who will change their mind and lifestyle.
However I would add that recently in the UK a hotel owner who is a Christian was penalised for refusing a gay couple a shared room. The owner did however offer them separate rooms. The gay group press spokeman repeatedly in media reports made the false implication that the hotel owner had turned them away. Yet there are gay only hotels in the UK, one of which was later cited, which advertise as gay only and have anti-Christian and Biblical denial on the website, yet havent been punished.

Phinehas2 · Mar 26, 2008

Dear CriticalMassKitten,

This is a parade for people to say they're ok with who they are, and yet these people came in and told them they're going to hell. I'd say that's harassment. If it was gays going into a church telling Christians they're wrong, I'd be saying the same thing. Reversed, of course

I have sympathy with this, its a valid point. However as it is a public display, its in the public arena and many parades have counter parades within the law. In some respects gay and lesbian groups seem to be objecting to any free speech if it is against what they believe. Yet I would say its insensitive for Christians to propose Biblical standards to people who dont believe. Christians would be better telling of the gospel of Jesus Christ, if people chose to follow Jesus Christ, it is Jesus Christ who will change their mind and lifestyle.
However I would add that recently in the UK a hotel owner who is a Christian was penalised for refusing a gay couple a shared room. The owner did however offer them separate rooms. The gay group press spokeman repeatedly in media reports made the false implication that the hotel owner had turned them away. Yet there are gay only hotels in the UK, one of which was later cited, which advertise as gay only and have anti-Christian and Biblical denial on the website, yet havent been punished.
By this example I think there is an element of truth in the idea that Christians are being silenced. Citizen’s are allowed to express their views, the gay groups object to this, citizen’s are allowed to say that same-sex sex is wrong, even to those who promote it.

ghs1994 · Mar 25, 2008

i can see more homeschooling being done in the future if not already.

i can see more learning about the law as they catch wind of what is going on.

i can see persecution coming.

it is in the air.

we have to be careful not to give more ammunition, we must be biblical and obey the law of the land at the same time unless that law contradicts biblical commandment.

i think christians need to seperate even further into another group that is not labeled christians. a christian is such a general label. my boss thinks he's a christian because he's not a catholic.

i think it's time we went a step further in seperating ourselves.

catlover · Mar 26, 2008

CriticalMassKitten said:
I know, it's great. Good for a kick or two. Say whatever you want to others, but once they say something back they pull the "we're being oppressed D:" card. (they, of course, being the people who actually do this, not Christians in general)

Christians in The U.S and Westernized countries have NO idea what persecution really is...

savedandhappy1 · Mar 27, 2008

catlover said:
They weren't there to praise and sing songs to the Lord they were there to harrass homosexuals.

They had what they had coming to them---

Really, so you do believe it was a hate crime to stand together singing hymns and reading scriptures?

Did they say anything to the homosexuals or were they just in a public area showing another side to life and what is available for people?

Why was it ok for the homosexual side to push, shove and say aggressive things to the church group and not be arrested, if, even though the Christians didn't do any of those things the Christians were arrested?

You have a right to see what you want to see and say it, but on the other hand why can't others have that same right?

I may have missed it, so sorry if I did, but did you say why it was right for the homosexual side to block the public sidewalk not allowing a resident with a walker to pass to their own home? That person lived there and most of the paraders don't so why did they have more rights then the resident?

Thanks for your replies and sorry if you addressed some of the questions and I missed the answer. With the post mixed up and well I have had alot going on and may just of missed post to me.

savedandhappy1 · Mar 26, 2008

ghs1994 said:
i can see more homeschooling being done in the future if not already.

i can see more learning about the law as they catch wind of what is going on.

i can see persecution coming.

it is in the air.

we have to be careful not to give more ammunition, we must be biblical and obey the law of the land at the same time unless that law contradicts biblical commandment.

i think christians need to seperate even further into another group that is not labeled christians. a christian is such a general label. my boss thinks he's a christian because he's not a catholic.

i think it's time we went a step further in seperating ourselves.

They are already trying to stop home schooling by Christians who don't want their children taught certain things. I believe it is California that is trying to pass a law saying parents have to be teachers to home school their children even though most home schooled kids have higher scores then public school kids.

I don't think we can totally separate ourselves from the world, we do have to live here we just aren't to be like the world, but like the Lord.

savedandhappy1 · Mar 27, 2008

CriticalMassKitten said:
When it's intended to harass, then yes they should do something else. This is a parade for people to say they're ok with who they are, and yet these people came in and told them they're going to hell. I'd say that's harassment. If it was gays going into a church telling Christians they're wrong, I'd be saying the same thing. Reversed, of course.

See, thing is, you have all the right to believe what you won't, but don't(ok, horrible pun coming but it's all I could think of) rain on their parade.

Did they say anything to the paraders at all, let alone telling them they were going to hell? I will have to go back and study the videos better if I can still find them.

How is the public street considered the same thing as in a church may I ask? The church is for those who want to worship God, gaither together for fellowship, learn, and for those seeking the truth. So are you saying the public street is for those who want to do the opposite of the church, and so those on the other side of the coin can't do anything they might do in church?

HaloHope · Mar 26, 2008

savedandhappy1 said:
They were flung in jail so why are you amazed that people would think that is persecution?

They werent flung in jail for being Christian they were thrown in trouble for causing a disturbance in public and generally making a nusisance of themselves in a place they knew theyd find confrontation.

savedandhappy1 · Mar 27, 2008

catlover said:
It's okay for fundamentalist Christians to harrass others--it's considered "loving", and "the truth" because it's in the so called "Word". The funny thing is, is when you give it right back to them, they wine...this board is a lovely example for starters.

I guess we have different definition on what harassment is, because I don't think trying to show someone that what they are doing could send them to hell harassing. If I am doing something that will cause eternal damnation and death I would hope that someone loved me enough to try to lead me away from take.

I guess that not only is our undestanding of harassment different, but our understanding of what ture love is also.

Wine???????????????????????

Who is whining?

Is speaking the scriptures, praying and reading scriptures reason to throw someone in jail, because others in the area don't like it? Is shoving, name calling ok, and not harassment, but the 3 things listed above are?

Again, I think our understanding of harassment and love are very much understood differently.

What are you giving right back? Are you giving understanding and evidence that speaking the truth is not Christlike? Which is what I believe most of the posters here are trying to do.

savedandhappy1 · Mar 27, 2008

tulc said:
Never mind, I don't want savedandhappy1 to feel ganged up on.
tulc(hopes your night is blessed!)

tulc,

Not feeling ganged up on so if you were able to follow the mixed up posts, and have a thought you would like to post I will do my best to respond.

Thank you though for being concerned about my feelings, I also worry about that when I try to respond.

"You have a bless day!!"

savedandhappy1 · Mar 26, 2008

CriticalMassKitten said:
I know, it's great. Good for a kick or two. Say whatever you want to others, but once they say something back they pull the "we're being oppressed D:" card. (they, of course, being the people who actually do this, not Christians in general)

Saying something back and being put in jail are two different things to me. Is it not to you?

savedandhappy1 · Mar 26, 2008

HaloHope said:
They werent flung in jail for being Christian they were thrown in trouble for causing a disturbance in public and generally making a nusisance of themselves in a place they knew theyd find confrontation.

They went where the police wanted them to and the disturbance was caused by those blocking the sidewalks and holding up the pink signs screaming so that the songs, scriptures and prayers couldn't be heard.

They weren't blocking residents from their homes, and they weren't thrown in jail for being a nusiance, but the charges were going to be a hate crime until the national news picked up the story. Big difference between nusiance and hate crimes in my opinion, but others can other opinions.

Not sure how those two things could be considered the same, so would ask what your definition of nusiance is and what your definition of hate crime is. Thanks.

_______________________________________________

PHILADELPHIA, PA. Oct. 11/Covenant News Wire Service/ -- On Sunday, October 10, 2004, eleven Christians with the Philadelphia-based Repent America were arrested, jailed, and charged under hate crimes legislation during an evangelistic outreach at the annual "OutFest" homosexual pride event held in the public streets of Philadelphia.

The six men and five women representing Repent America approached the event and were immediately confronted with unlawful opposition by a group of homosexuals. This group, the Pink Angels, was formed by homosexual attorney Chuck Volz, a senior adviser to Philly Pride Presents, organizers of the annual OutFest event which receives $22,500 yearly from the City of Philadelphia. The Pink Angels blocked access to Repent America by forming a human chain, refusing to allow the Christians to walk down the public sidewalk. Police intervened shortly thereafter, escorting Repent America through the human blockade.

While on the public sidewalk and street inside the event, Repent America began to open-air preach with the use of Scripture banners, and to distribute Gospel literature, as members of the "Pink Angels" blew loud whistles and carried large signs alongside the Christians to block their message and their access to the event attendees, while others screamed obscenities. The police refused to take action as the Christians were continuously followed, obstructed, and harassed.

Repent America obeyed all laws, and even the unlawful requests, to move by the Philadelphia Civil Affairs police officers in an effort of cooperation. Regardless of Repent Americas compliance, Chief James Tiano, head of the Civil Affairs Unit, without warning, ordered the arrests of the Christians and hauled them off to jail, where they spent 21 hours, before being released the following day. Ten Christians were individually charged with three felonies and five misdemeanors, while a teenager with the group was charged with a misdemeanor.

This is one of the most remarkable and unlawful actions by police that I have ever witnessed. Their blatant disregard of the law by allowing hecklers to impede our way, block our message, and then arrest us, is inexcusable, especially by police officers who are specially trained to protect civil rights, stated Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. Christians are now being labeled as haters and any speech that homosexuals perceive to be intimidating, such as our Christian witness at OutFest, makes them a prime target for hate crimes legislation, Marcavage continued.

The three felonies and five misdemeanors include: Criminal Conspiracy (Felony), Possession of Instruments of Crime (Misdemeanor), Reckless Endangerment of Another Person (Misdemeanor), Ethnic Intimidation (Felony), Riot (Felony), Failure to Disperse (Misdemeanor), Disorderly Conduct (Misdemeanor), and Obstructing Highways (Misdemeanor). We are clearly not guilty of these crimes, and with the help of our video footage, we shall be vindicated of these trumped up charges, Marcavage concluded.

http://www.covenantnews.com/repent041012.htm

savedandhappy1 · Mar 26, 2008

Boy I hope they fix the problem with how the post come out soon.

I am having trouble figuring out what order the post are supposed to be in.

Anyhow if I miss a post meant for me, sorry, and I just may wait till they fix the problem before trying to post anymore responses.

savedandhappy1 · Mar 27, 2008

Boy I hope they fix the problem with how the post come out soon.

I am having trouble figuring out what order the post are supposed to be in.

Anyhow if I miss a post meant for me, sorry, and I just may wait till they fix the problem before trying to post anymore responses.

BigBadWlf · Mar 27, 2008

savedandhappy1 said:
I guess we have different definition on what harassment is, because I don't think trying to show someone that what they are doing could send them to hell harassing. If I am doing something that will cause eternal damnation and death I would hope that someone loved me enough to try to lead me away from take.

So you would have no problem with a group of atheists showing up at your church picnic or maybe Sunday school with billboards and bull horns so they can educate you and your children about just what is wrong with them?

Polycarp1 · Mar 26, 2008

tulc said:
Wow savedandhappy1. It appears I answered (#25) your post (#27) some 7 hours before you posted your questions to me. Man I AM good!
tulc(if only these powers could be harnessed for good!)

I plan on waiting until the server timestamp gets back to about 1960, then I'll wow everyone with my powers of prophecy!

Polycarp1 · Mar 27, 2008

savedandhappy1 said:
I guess we have different definition on what harassment is, because I don't think trying to show someone that what they are doing could send them to hell harassing. If I am doing something that will cause eternal damnation and death I would hope that someone loved me enough to try to lead me away from take.

I guess that not only is our undestanding of harassment different, but our understanding of what ture love is also.

Wine???????????????????????

Who is whining?

Is speaking the scriptures, praying and reading scriptures reason to throw someone in jail, because others in the area don't like it? Is shoving, name calling ok, and not harassment, but the 3 things listed above are?

Again, I think our understanding of harassment and love are very much understood differently.

What are you giving right back? Are you giving understanding and evidence that speaking the truth is not Christlike? Which is what I believe most of the posters here are trying to do.

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

(Just setting forth the Scripture, in love, to proclaim the truth!)

CriticalMassKitten · Mar 27, 2008

savedandhappy1 said:
How is the public street considered the same thing as in a church may I ask? The church is for those who want to worship God, gaither together for fellowship, learn, and for those seeking the truth. So are you saying the public street is for those who want to do the opposite of the church, and so those on the other side of the coin can't do anything they might do in church?

Not the public street, the parade. The parade is for people who are gay and don't think it's wrong. Church is for people who believe in Christ and his word, ect, ect. Now, if say, a satanist went to the church and said all sorts of things that are the exact opposite of those in the church to get a reaction, the same conclusion would most likely happen. Nice job attempting to twist my words, as if I thing people on the streets can go to church. Sadly, twisting random examples into what you want says nothing about me.

And it's fine to have a little "counterparade" thing you could say, but you need to take into account how people react. If you think it'll most likely cause a problem, you'll probably be at risk for disturbing the peace, I would say.

savedandhappy1 said:
Saying something back and being put in jail are two different things to me. Is it not to you?

That was a general statement. <-<

CriticalMassKitten · Mar 27, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear CriticalMassKitten,
I have sympathy with this, its a valid point. However as it is a public display, its in the public arena and many parades have counter parades within the law. In some respects gay and lesbian groups seem to be objecting to any free speech if it is against what they believe. Yet I would say its insensitive for Christians to propose Biblical standards to people who dont believe. Christians would be better telling of the gospel of Jesus Christ, if people chose to follow Jesus Christ, it is Jesus Christ who will change their mind and lifestyle.
However I would add that recently in the UK a hotel owner who is a Christian was penalised for refusing a gay couple a shared room. The owner did however offer them separate rooms. The gay group press spokeman repeatedly in media reports made the false implication that the hotel owner had turned them away. Yet there are gay only hotels in the UK, one of which was later cited, which advertise as gay only and have anti-Christian and Biblical denial on the website, yet havent been punished.
By this example I think there is an element of truth in the idea that Christians are being silenced. Citizens are allowed to express their views, the gay groups object to this, citizens are allowed to say that same-sex sex is wrong, even to those who promote it.

Yeah, the hotel thing seems a little messed up. Though I don't think any business should turn anyone away, if they can so be it, I suppose. Anyway, I think the reason the people at the parade were jailed was because of disturbing the peace. I can walk around screaming all sorts of racist stuff under freedom of speech, but if I end up starting a commotion because of this, I can be arrested. Like I said in the post before this one, it's more of how people react to what you do that you should be thinking about I guess.

savedandhappy1 · Apr 1, 2008

BigBadWlf said:
So you would have no problem with a group of atheists showing up at your church picnic or maybe Sunday school with billboards and bull horns so they can educate you and your children about just what is wrong with them?

Sunday school, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how does that compare to a public square and sidewalk again?

Oh, by the way it was the pink angels with the billboards.

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