Shunned

[The Liturgist]

Some people may make themselves so obnoxious that I will avoid them but I do not shun them. Doctrinal differences don't make me shun people. Apostasy doesn't make me shun. Shunning seems like cruelty to me. Cutting a person off completely just seems wrong.

Indeed, and I don’t believe its required by Galatians 1:8-9., which rather simply require not admitting into the church heretics who will try to preach a false Gospel therein (recently in another thread someone defended George Fox having disrupted Church of England services, which is the kind of abusive behavior that should be prohibited even where Galatians 1:8-9 is in effect. I disagree with the mainline Protestant churches on the issue of homosexual marriage, but I would never consider entering one of their parishes and disrupting their service to criticize it (which would also galvanize opposition to traditional values and make life harder for the large number of traditional Christians who are still members of the mainline churches, some of whom are actively trying to bring about reforms from within).

I think that shunning someone is something Christians should avoid, because of the widespread incidents of the abuse of the practice by the heretical Jehovah’s Witnesses, and by certain Old Order Mennonites and Amish people who are not heretics in the modern sense of the word, but cutting family ties with someone because they don’t use a horse and buggy, or don’t paint the bumper on their car black, or otherwise fail to completely comply with their group’s Ordnung, is unconscionable. And the Scientologists have caused so much trauma through “forced disconnection” that no Christian church should permit itself to be associated with that.

 

[The Liturgist]

My question to you is what Scripture would you use to desert a person searching for Truth?

Its not desertion if you don’t allow someone who subscribes to a known heresy like Arianism and denies the deity of Christ our True God, who IS Truth, to preach in or disrupt your church services, or if you seek to avoid them if they continue to pester you about your orthodox Nicene / Trinitarian faith, which are acts allowed by Galatians 1:8-9. The very act of declaring someone anathema delivers them to God in the hope that where we have failed to persuade them, God might soften their heart and call them to repentance through the Holy Spirit.

By the way I would note that insofar as your question characterizes what Ivan described he would do as “Desertion” without giving him the chance to explain why it is not desertion, it constitutes Begging the Question and is logically fallacious - Begging the Question is a fallacy according to formal logic that creates questions that people cannot answer without admitting an accusation being leveled against them.

 

[Grafted In]

Its not desertion if you don’t allow someone who subscribes to a known heresy like Arianism and denies the deity of Christ our True God, who IS Truth, to preach in or disrupt your church services, or if you seek to avoid them if they continue to pester you about your orthodox Nicene / Trinitarian faith, which are acts allowed by Galatians 1:8-9. The very act of declaring someone anathema delivers them to God in the hope that where we have failed to persuade them, God might soften their heart and call them to repentance through the Holy Spirit.

My question is addressed to the op's original post.

 

[The Liturgist]

My question is addressed to the op's original post.

Well you should edit your post then, because as written it is addressed to @Ivan Hlavanda

 

[Grafted In]

Yes. In response to a comment directed at me.
At that point no accounts of disrupting services and the like had been posted.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

My question to you is what Scripture would you use to desert a person searching for Truth?

Scripture that shows Christ is God?

You have many verses where Jesus claims to be God.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” This is a Messianic verse

John 10:30 'I and the Father are one.” That means, they are of the same substance

The Father Himself testified of Jesus being God Matthew 3:17 'and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”'

Thomas tells us in John 20:28 who Jesus is ' “My Lord and my God!

Few verses later, verse 31 tells us why the Gospel of John was written ' these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

You got references of trinity in OT, on top of my head

Genesis 1 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The Word God in verse 1 is Elohim which is a plural word.

Gen 1 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. - Another refence to Trinity

Psalm 45 7 Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
God anointed God? I 'wonder' what that refers to.

Now of course there are many more verses, the whole Scripture is about Christ, the suffering Saviour of this world.

 

[Grafted In]

You're right. I oppologize.
The post i linked to was what inspired me to respond.

 

[soldier of light]

I shun the old man in myself and i shun the world as well. I'm am outcast because of this.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I shun the old man in myself and i shun the world as well. I'm am outcast because of this.

If one shuns the world it is to be expected that the one who does the shunning will eventually become shunned by those he shuns.

 

[soldier of light]

If one shuns the world it is to be expected that the one who does the shunning will eventually become shunned by those he shuns.

It's holiness. The world is God's enemy and if we are friends with the world we are God's enemy.

 

[soldier of light]

If one shuns the world it is to be expected that the one who does the shunning will eventually become shunned by those he shuns.

Why would the church shun me when i shun the world? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's holiness. The world is God's enemy and if we are friends with the world we are God's enemy.

It is a kind of insanity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why would the church shun me when i shun the world? Or am I misunderstanding you?

perhaps they see the example that your set?

 

[soldier of light]

perhaps they see the example that your set?

My example of holiness?

 

[The Liturgist]

St. Silouan the Athonite warned of two thoughts from which every Christian should flee: the first is that we have already attained any holiness, and the second is that we are beyond hope of salvation. The former can lead to pride, spiritual delusion, and also other spiritual ailments, sloth for example, since one who believes he is already saintly is unlikely to act in furtherance of his spiritual growth. Conversely, to despair over our salvation runs the risk of spiritual delusion of an equally dangerous sort, since the devil, by persuading us that our cause is hopeless, can trick us into a state of despair where we might give up, stop practicing the Christian faith and perhaps convert to some other religion based on the false idea that Christianity is too demanding.

Likewise, one thing I admire about Lutherans and other Protestants such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian is that by stressing the idea of imputed righteousness, they make it clear that whatever holiness in us should be regarded as the work of the Holy Spirit. It is because of the alignment of this view and that of St. Silouan the Athonite that I find Lutheran monergism to be distinct from Calvinist monergism and much close to the anti-Pelagian synergism of the Orthodox faith, which stresses humility; while the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox believe we cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit, the language used by the saints to describe holiness and the dangers of self-attribution to it is extremely similiar to that of the Lutheran Orthodox, and so on this basis I believe that there is hope for a reconciliation on this basis.

 

[soldier of light]

St. Silouan the Athonite warned of two thoughts from which every Christian should flee: the first is that we have already attained any holiness, and the second is that we are beyond hope of salvation. The former can lead to pride, spiritual delusion, and also other spiritual ailments, sloth for example, since one who believes he is already saintly is unlikely to act in furtherance of his spiritual growth. Conversely, to despair over our salvation runs the risk of spiritual delusion of an equally dangerous sort, since the devil, by persuading us that our cause is hopeless, can trick us into a state of despair where we might give up, stop practicing the Christian faith and perhaps convert to some other religion based on the false idea that Christianity is too demanding.

Likewise, one thing I admire about Lutherans and other Protestants such as my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian is that by stressing the idea of imputed righteousness, they make it clear that whatever holiness in us should be regarded as the work of the Holy Spirit. It is because of the alignment of this view and that of St. Silouan the Athonite that I find Lutheran monergism to be distinct from Calvinist monergism and much close to the anti-Pelagian synergism of the Orthodox faith, which stresses humility; while the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox believe we cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit, the language used by the saints to describe holiness and the dangers of self-attribution to it is extremely similiar to that of the Lutheran Orthodox, and so on this basis I believe that there is hope for a reconciliation on this basis.

God said to be holy. I'm sorry if that conflicts with this guys teaching

 

[The Liturgist]

God said to be holy. I'm sorry if that conflicts with this guys teaching

In no respect does the command to be holy contradict with our teaching.

Saint Sisoes the Great (+ 429) was a solitary monk, pursuing asceticism in the Egyptian desert in a cave sanctified by the prayerful labors of his predecessor, Saint Anthony the Great (January 17). For his sixty years of labor in the desert, Saint Sisoes attained to sublime spiritual purity and he was granted the gift of wonderworking, so that by his prayers he once restored a dead child back to life.

Extremely strict with himself, Abba Sisoes was very merciful and compassionate to others, and he received everyone with love. To those who visited him, the saint first of all always taught humility. When one of the monks asked how he might attain to a constant remembrance of God, Saint Sisoes remarked, “That is no great thing, my son, but it is a great thing to regard yourself as inferior to everyone else. This leads to the acquisition of humility.” Asked by the monks whether one year is sufficient for repentance if a brother sins, Abba Sisoes said, “I trust in the mercy of God that if such a man repents with all his heart, then God will accept his repentance in three days.”

When Saint Sisoes lay upon his deathbed, the disciples surrounding the Elder saw that his face shone like the sun. They asked the dying man what he saw. Abba Sisoes replied that he saw Saint Anthony, the prophets, and the apostles. His face increased in brightness, and he spoke with someone. The monks asked, “With whom are you speaking, Father?” He said that angels had come for his soul, and he was entreating them to give him a little more time for repentance. The monks said, “You have no need for repentance, Father.” Saint Sisoes said with great humility, “I do not think that I have even begun to repent.”

After these words the face of the holy abba shone so brightly that the brethren were not able to look upon him. Saint Sisoes told them that he saw the Lord Himself. Then there was a flash like lightning, and a fragrant odor, and Abba Sisoes departed to the Heavenly Kingdom.

 

[soldier of light]

In no respect does the command to be holy contradict with our teaching.

Saint Sisoes the Great (+ 429) was a solitary monk, pursuing asceticism in the Egyptian desert in a cave sanctified by the prayerful labors of his predecessor, Saint Anthony the Great (January 17). For his sixty years of labor in the desert, Saint Sisoes attained to sublime spiritual purity and he was granted the gift of wonderworking, so that by his prayers he once restored a dead child back to life.

Extremely strict with himself, Abba Sisoes was very merciful and compassionate to others, and he received everyone with love. To those who visited him, the saint first of all always taught humility. When one of the monks asked how he might attain to a constant remembrance of God, Saint Sisoes remarked, “That is no great thing, my son, but it is a great thing to regard yourself as inferior to everyone else. This leads to the acquisition of humility.” Asked by the monks whether one year is sufficient for repentance if a brother sins, Abba Sisoes said, “I trust in the mercy of God that if such a man repents with all his heart, then God will accept his repentance in three days.”

When Saint Sisoes lay upon his deathbed, the disciples surrounding the Elder saw that his face shone like the sun. They asked the dying man what he saw. Abba Sisoes replied that he saw Saint Anthony, the prophets, and the apostles. His face increased in brightness, and he spoke with someone. The monks asked, “With whom are you speaking, Father?” He said that angels had come for his soul, and he was entreating them to give him a little more time for repentance. The monks said, “You have no need for repentance, Father.” Saint Sisoes said with great humility, “I do not think that I have even begun to repent.”

After these words the face of the holy abba shone so brightly that the brethren were not able to look upon him. Saint Sisoes told them that he saw the Lord Himself. Then there was a flash like lightning, and a fragrant odor, and Abba Sisoes departed to the Heavenly Kingdom.

I'm not holier than thou but I'm too holy for this place with its constant political and religious bickering. I pray that I not come back here. I need healing not this.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm not holier than thou but I'm too holy for this place with its constant political and religious bickering. I pray that I not come back here. I need healing not this.

Sorry you feel this way; it seems you are taking credit for your own holiness and missing who actually justified you and who sanctified you. We are all sinners, we are only saints because of Jesus Christ. As Luther stated it: “Simul justus et peccator”; saint and sinner at the same time.

 

[soldier of light]

Sorry you feel this way; it seems you are taking credit for your own holiness and missing who actually justified you and who sanctified you. We are all sinners, we are only saints because of Jesus Christ. As Luther stated it: “Simul justus et peccator”; saint and sinner at the same time.

Nope. Jesus and his word made me holy.