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Shouldn't the first 3 verses of Genesis 2 really be at the end of Genesis 1?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Valetic, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    He was told to keep a written record of what God told him. He had 40 years while wandering around in the wilderness to be able to do that. He was unique in that he had a very personal friend to friend relationship with God in which they communicated with each other freely.

    Written language was well known since Abraham's times, because Sumerian writing has been discovered and can be found in the British Museum.
     
  2. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    You know, there are plenty of people I would be glad read their bibles at all, let alone study it daily or even go to church every once in a while..
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    It only means you are on the right path. Also, another guy created the verse numbers we currently have. But, it was the chapter creating guy that made so many errors. God allowed it to create confusion for others but the ones with eyes to see can see through and beyond chapter numbers. The bible is see through! ;)
     
  4. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    You have already been told in another post that in the Original Manuscripts, there were no Chapters and verses, they have been added in order to make it easier to read, therefore it doesn't matter how many times something is broken down, it is the words which carry the meaning, and if you do not understand then it is you who does not understand, it isn't because someone messed with the text, there are no Contradictions.
     
  5. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Yeah I know what you mean..

    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." - Matthew 24:35
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The fact is, that Genesis 1 is the only definite record of the origin of the universe. All others are either fantasy stories without substantive detail, like in New Zealand myth, that a guy called Kupe threw in a fishing line and hooked up New Zealand from the ocean! Or that the origin is cased in theory- that what happened probably happened over a quadbillion years. The Genesis record involves a real Person called God who created it and the account is in detail of how He did it.
     
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  7. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Cool bro. Show me how.
     
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    It's found in the understanding that every verse where you believe there is a contradiction, there is at least one other verse which will reconcile it.

    If your belief is, there Are Contradictions in the Bible, then throw the book away, it's of no use to you, and think about where that puts you Faith that you are actually Saved, if that Bible cannot be trusted because, there Are Contradictions in it, how can you be assured, that your Salvation is secure in Christ?
     
  9. Valetic

    Valetic Addicted to CF Supporter

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    Honestly I just want to interpret the bible correctly. That's why I made this thread. You haven't done anything but make this whole process of learning what I asked for help with in the OP anything but less difficult.

    Did I say there was a contradiction in the bible? No.

    Did I confess to you that I was having a problem with a certain passage? Yes.

    Is our English bible an exact copy and understood exactly how it was when the words were written originally in another language? My guess is probably not.

    Do I have an interliniar bible? Yes. Do I use it? Yes.

    Who decided to put verses 1-3 in chapter 2 instead of chapter 1 and why. That's all I'm asking. Not whether anything is contradictory.
     
  10. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Where is the discrepancy?

    These verses essentially say the same thing?

    Luke 20:16
    He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

    Mat. 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    Let me ask while I have your attention.

    1) Who are the Wicked Husbandmen Jesus is referring to?
    2) Who are the OTHERS who the vineyard will be let out to?
    3) What is the overall understanding of this Parable?
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I have already explained that to you in my post #15 and you responded in your post #16.

    Then you proceeded from there.

    It's Faith in what is written, that is the sum total of what you need to know as a Christian, if you question the validity of it, then it is of none effect.

    It's not out of order, it's you misunderstanding that is the problem.
     
  12. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Have you ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

    Jesus promised that He will "give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth." John 14:16-17

    "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26

    Also --even with the Holy Spirit-- don't expect to get everything in one day. Let God cultivate you.
     
  13. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It is whether Jesus said it or the Pharisee's said it, that is the contradiction.
    Of course, feel free to ask any time!
    Matthew 21:35,38-39 shows that it is the ones who are in charge of the kingdom of God ("the tenants of the vineyard"), who were persecuting the servants that God kept sending, so that He was refused the fruit that was due to Him. This is parallel to the likes of Jeremiah 23:2-4, and is directly referencing the ones named in Jeremiah 23:30-32 who teach of their own heart in the name of God without yielding to His sovereignty.
    It is those who bear the fruits of it - therefore, not coveting God's sovereignty (Jeremiah 23:18), worshipping in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), and repenting unto salvation (Matthew 3:8-9).
    That is found at the end: "whoever stumbles over this stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone it falls on", and placed in conjunction with Matthew 5:20, 1 Corinthians 9:24, Hebrews 12:28 leads to the realisation in Daniel 4:17 that those who exalt themselves above God and do not love the truth but delight in wickedness will be removed. This is a prophecy that St. Paul spoke against Christendom in 2 Thessalonians 2, and Jesus Himself spoke of the same through Matthew 13:30 and Luke 19:14.
     
  14. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    My question was, where is the discrepancy, and your answer is below.

    Jesus spoke the Parable the the Pharisee.
    1) In Luke it is just recorded as spoken by Jesus.
    2) In Matthew, there is a little bit more detail, and says they said unto Him, then repeated what He (Jesus) said.

    So the answer for both passages would be Jesus spoke the Parable.

    This is why I highlighted both verses, below.

    The Red are Jesus words, the Blue are the Pharisee speaking, just like in you own Bible, Jesus words are in Red, everyone else is in Black.

     
  15. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    My questions were.
    1) Who are the Wicked Husbandmen Jesus is referring to?
    2) Who are the OTHERS who the vineyard will be let out to?
    3) What is the overall understanding of this Parable?

    Jesus spoke a Parable to the Pharisee.

    1) The Husbandman were the Pharisees, were those Husbandmen in the Parable.

    Jesus was Prophesying against them, that the Jews as a People were going to lose the Kingdom.

    2) The Others, who the vineyard would be let out to, would be the Believers in Christ those Elect Jews of that time and the Gentiles from that time on.

    Again, Jesus was Prophesying to the Pharisees that the Kingdom was being taken from them (The Jews) and given to those who wold render Fruits, (Gentiles)

    3) The overall understanding of the Parable is, it was a Prophesy, the Jewish Nation as a whole, (except the Elect of God) were losing the Kingdom because, of non Belief in their Messiah, and giving it to a Nation who would accept Him, (The Gentiles).
     
  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It makes a big difference though, whether Jesus said that the wicked men would be put to a wicked end or whether it was the Pharisee's who said it while Jesus did not.
    Yes, that is not in dispute. I added an explanation for that judgement, and showed how it is paralleled in Christendom.
    This is until their hearts were sufficiently humbled (Ezekiel 11:17-21).

    Remember, St Paul spoke of them, the natural olive branch having been broken off, later being grafted back in if they were able to repent - and that they were much easier to graft in than the Gentiles because they were not contrary to the vine by nature. He also said that his purpose for encouraging the Gentiles was to provoke his Jewish brothers and sisters to jealously yearn for Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Checked and answered in that thread.
     
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  18. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I really don't see your problem, Jesus clearly spoke the Parable.

    Jesus clearly spoke the Parable to the Pharisees, after finishing the Parable Jesus saked the the question.

    Mat. 21:40
    When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

    The Pharisees answered Jesus this way,

    Mat. 21:41
    They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    Jesus did not correct their answer to His question, He continued with what He was saying.

    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    What Jesus has related to the Pharisees in these last three verses is essentially what their answer was,
    "THEY as Wicked Men would be Destroyed Miserably."

    In other words,
    The stone which the builders rejected, on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.......Destroyed Miserably.

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    So, to answer your question as clearly as I can, Jesus asked the Pharisees a question at the end of His Parable, they in turn answered His question with the words.

    They said unto him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men"

    Therefore it was them who said the words.

    But we see in the Luke rendition of the Parable, Jesus spoke the words.

    Does this essentially change the message given in either rendition, (NO).

    Do each of these renditions contradict each other, (NO)

    Look at it this way, there is a car accident, there are four eyewitnesses to the accident, each one will give a different account of what happened, but the essential elements of the truth will all be the same.

    Lastly, remember, the account of this incident recorded by Luke was from eyewitnesses that he himself interviewed because, he was not an eyewitness himself, he therefore had a mix of recollections form more than one eyewitness.

    Sorry for the length of this post but I was trying to cover every base I could think of.
     
  19. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Thank you for your patience to try and be as clear as you can, and please be assured that I do see the point you are making. It is still an inescapable fact that there is a contradiction in the record, which proves that it is not infallible and perfect .. but it does in fact contain contradiction.

    "I, Adonai, search the heart, in order to give each man according to the fruit of his deeds".

    .. so, whether it is a serious discrepancy is a different discussion, which I have not entered into yet, and which you seem to be of the opinion that it isn't. I would respectfully disagree.

    Anyhow, thank you again for having turned your attention to this, and for being patient while explaining your position.
     
  20. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    There is no discrepancy between the 2 passages.
    The passage in Luke doesn't say who answered Jesus' question of what the lord of the vineyard would do to the husbandmen.
    All it says is that they heard it.
    It is pure assumption to make the claim that Jesus answered His own question.
     
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