Shouldn’t people hope purgatory exists?

[Daniel Peres]

Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, we should not hope for things that are not taught in the scriptures. The scriptures are a lamp to our feet, meaning the path Psalms 119:105. When we take our focus off the Word of God it allows the other spirit to distract us which will ultimately end up being deceived.

Isaiah 8:20 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Daniel Peres]

No, we should not hope things that are not taught in bible. The scriptures are a lamp to our feet, meaning the path

Whether purgatory is in scripture is debatable, even according to Luther’s thesis. Also, that’s not the question. Wouldn’t you rather be truly perfect than partially perfect? Jesus did say we must be perfect.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Whether purgatory is in scripture is debatable, even according to Luther’s thesis. Also, that’s not the question. Wouldn’t you rather be truly perfect than partially perfect? Jesus did say we must be perfect.

We can be made perfect through God’s Spirit working in us when we surrender our will to His, so we can be prepared for His Second Coming. We have one more second chance which was given through the blood of Jesus and the scriptures are our guide to prepare us, when following.

 

[Daniel Peres]

We can be made perfect through God’s Spirit working in us when we surrender our will to His, so we can be prepared for His Second Cowing. We have one more second chance and the scriptures are the manual to prepare us.

Unless you are some kind of unusual Protestant, you believe we only achieve imputed righteousness , and that is, by definition, not true perfection. Purgatory makes a soul truly perfect. Wouldn’t you like that?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Unless you are some kind of unusual Protestant, you believe we only achieve imputed righteousness , and that is, by definition, not true perfection. Purgatory makes a soul truly perfect. Wouldn’t you like that?

I love God’s Word over man-made ideas. There are two choices according to the Word of God. When Jesus comes those who are in Christ that are dead will rise and first and those alive will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air and will be with Him forevermore

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven … and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

Those not in Christ and alive will perish…

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“At that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth” (Jeremiah 25:33).


Jesus will come back after the 1000 years of peace and at the time those who are not in Christ will face judgement and eternal punishment (death) not burning forever. The wages of sin is death, not burning forever. Ashes you come ashes you will go. Malachi 4:3

Revelation 12:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The Second Resurrection will be for the condemned and sin and sinners will forever be no more.

Revelation 2:12 And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There are two choices purgatory does not exists, it’s a distraction and to give people false hope and many people prefer to believe this than God’s Truth. We need to be seeking God’s Truth and His Word is His Truth. John 17:17

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I love God’s Word over man-made

This is at best a presupposition and at worst a dogma. The fact is that purgatory can be supported by scripture. You don’t agree, and that’s fine, but to say there is no reasonable scripture-based argument is simply not true.

 

[HTacianas]

I love God’s Word over man-made ideas. There are two choices according to the Word of God. When Jesus comes those who are in Christ are dead will rise and first and those alive will be caught up to meet Jesus and will be with Him forevermore

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven … and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).

Those not in Christ and alive will perish…

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“At that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth” (Jeremiah 25:33).


Jesus will come back after the 1000 years of peace and at the time those who are not in Christ will face judgement and eternal punishment (death) not burning forever. The wages of sin is death, not burning forever. Ashes you come ashes you will go.

Revelation 12:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The Second Resurrection will be for the condemned and sin and sinners will forever be no more.

Revelation 2:12 And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There are two choices purgatory does not exists, it’s a distraction and to give people false hope and many people prefer to believe this than God’s Truth. We need to be seeking God’s Truth and His Word is His Truth. John 17:17

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

1Co 3:13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Luk 12:47 "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

1Co 3:13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If one were to read these in context this is not about the eternal reward but the reward for service rendered in the ministry. The entire chapter is about methods of planting and building in the establishment of believers and churches. The fire represents a testing work and those who pass through it will be saved.

Luk 12:47 "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

Yes, there will be varying degrees of punishment when Jesus comes.

Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

 

[Daniel Peres]

If one were to read these in context this is not about the eternal reward but the reward for service rendered in the ministry. The entire chapter is about methods of planting and building in the establishment of believers and churches. The fire represents a testing work and those who pass through it will be saved.

You just don’t get it, do you. That is one possible interpretation, that may or may not be wrong. But your dogmatic belief that purgatory does not exist prevents you from seeing other possible interpretations.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.

Luther had no qualms with Catholic teachings . His fight was with it's widespread corruption. He believed in purgatory however , the payment of indulgences to the Catholic Church, to get loved ones out, was a bridge too far for him. That being said, his Thesis was meant for change not for rejection.
There have always been those outside the Catholic Church that preached the Gospel without tradition. They did not teach purgatory they taught salvation through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Our Hope is in Him.
Blessings.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You just don’t get it, do you. That is one possible interpretation, that may or may not be wrong. But your dogmatic belief that purgatory does not exist prevents you from seeing other possible interpretations.

Wouldn't this apply to you too?
Purgatory is not taught in the scriptures, there is no in-between place from being saved or lost according to the scriptures.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Many people, including many Catholics, view purgatory as a sort of punishment, something negative. But consider Martin Luther’s 29th thesis:

“Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.”

According to the legend, Saint Severinus and Paschal preferred to stay longer in Purgatory, so that they might have greater glory in heaven.

I think Luther has a good point here. After all, upon completeing the purification process, a soul has true righteousnees (infused). Because Protestants deny purification after death, their theology only promises imputed righteousness.

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.

For your consideration.

John 1:7 - 9
"But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

[BobRyan]

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed.

1. If the righteousness of Christ is considered "disappointing" to a Christian then the Christian might want to read the text of scripture more carefully.

2. If the Catholic church shared your POV above they would not be offering indulgences to get family and friends out of purgatory asap - and no one would be working to get those indulgences - so clearly your own church does not appear to share your view of max time in purgatory.

3. The Catholic church calls it "punishment" and "suffering" at the Council of Florence

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

Vatican II documents state:

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

CATHOLIC TEACHING ON PURGATORY
"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397).

Your argument seems to be that failure to experience punishment and pain "more severe than anthing humans can suffer in this life" and to instead be granted the righteousness of Christ - is an awful teaching???

It is difficult to understand how you in your former non-Catholic state could have come to such a conclusion or how you might expect other non-catholics to come to such a conclusion.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Luther had no qualms with Catholic teachings . His fight was with it's widespread corruption. He believed in purgatory however , the payment of indulgences to the Catholic Church, to get loved ones out, was a bridge too far for him. That being said, his Thesis was meant for change not for rejection.
There have always been those outside the Catholic Church that preached the Gospel without tradition. They did not teach purgatory they taught salvation through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Our Hope is in Him.
Blessings.

Your response is all over the place. I can’t tell if you want purgatory or not.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Your response is all over the place. I can’t tell if you want purgatory or not.

It's not a matter of what I want. It is a matter of what is the truth. Salvation is through the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

 

[public hermit]

Why would anybody want to settle for imputed righteousness. If Protestants correct and I end up with imputed righteousness, I will be very disappointed

I agree that the notion of imputed righteousness makes no sense and purgatory does. The idea that we're just going to waltz into the divine presence without being actually changed is foolish.

 

[Daniel Peres]

1. If the righteousness of Christ is considered "disappointing" to a Christian then the Christian might want to read the text of scripture more carefully.

I am comparing imputed righteousness with infused righteousness. I don’t see why you can’t admit infused righteousness is a happier ending.

Furthermore, Jesus did say we MUST be PERFECT, and imputed righteousness is not perfection, by definition.

2. If they Catholic church shared your POV above they would not be offering indulgences to get family and friends out of purgatory asap - and no one would be working to get those indulgences - so clearly your own church does not appear to share your view of max time in purgatory.

Purgatory is not as well defined as you think it is. It’s not even officially called purgatory, and it may last only a second.

BTW, it is not officially called purgatory because the east does not have the tradition of calling after death purification by that name.

3. The Catholic church calls it "punishment" and "suffering" at the Council of Florence




Vatican II documents state:



CATHOLIC TEACHING ON PURGATORY
"Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397).

Your argument seems to be that failure to experience punishment and pain "more severe than anthing humans can suffer in this life" and to instead be granted the righteousness of Christ - is an awful teaching???

After death purification is both a punishment and a blessing.

It is difficult to understand how you in your former non-Catholic state could have come to such a conclusion or how you might expect other non-catholics to come to such a conclusion.

The thesis that purgatory was good was presented by Martin Luther, Mr. Reformer himself. Why don’t you comment on his thesis, instead of criticizing Catholicism?

 

[Daniel Peres]

It's not a matter of what I want. It is a matter of what is the truth. Salvation is through the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

And through the blood of Jesus we have purgatory. What’s your point?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

And through the blood of Jesus we have purgatory. What’s your point?

We have salvation through His Blood not fire. I don't expect you to belive me. I understand your position, as I was once in your shoes. Be blessed.