Should you seek to get married?

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2009

There is dating with the goal of getting married, and dating without the goal of getting married.

Since I don't have sex with someone I am not married to or going to get married to, I am just getting to know or be friends with girls I am not exclusively dating. And if I am getting to know them, and I like them, and there seems like there might be a possibility of exclusively dating, then I will want to know whether there is the possibility of getting married in the future.

I don't want to just suddenly find out that I am emotionally intimate (physically intimate even worse) with the person and in love with them, but that they are all wrong for me. I also don't want to spend my efforts chasing someone (and if it is more than some casual dating, it is efforts), and have them be completely wrong for me. At worse, it is a waste of my time.

This all just seems rational to me.

JM

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2009

I think that so many people don't do this (date with the knowledge that the people they date are people they might/etc get married to), and that is why they end up in 9 year engagements which are broken (or go into marriage, and then get divorced), or divorces 1-5 years later, or strings of exclusive partners...

JM

deepgreen11 · Jun 12, 2009

Veryangrymonk said:
Me and a friend of mine hand an disagreement on the verse
1 Corinthians 7:27

If you have a wife, do not seek to end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not seek to get married.

to me all these verses are saying seek one
Pro 18:22
Pro19:14
Gen. 2:18
1 Cor. 7:3-5

Its not a question on weather or not its good or if you should. Its a question on whether you should SEEK to be Married. IE Dating sites, making and extra effort to meet singles. To me I think that my God given sex drive says I should FIND someone.

SO the question is this should i just wait for God to drop a women down from the sky into my arms. Or are there any verses that say you should activity look for someone?????Or was is a good explanation of what Paul was saying???

little_tigress said:
there's one important note to consider when reading that passage in 1 Cor:

Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy. 26 I suppose therefore that this is good because of the present distressthat it is good for a man to remain as he is: 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you.

its not a command from God that we shouldn't be seeking a spouse. Its Paul's personal advice to those in Corinth due to the conditions those people found themselves living in. If you believe that is good and sound advice for your own life then yes you should follow it. If not then there's no law or commandment saying you cannot look for a spouse.

Little T's got it, IMO. I do have one thing to say though. I believe that, concerning His will with seeking/finding a spouse, or a "rib" for the Adam, as I affectionately like to call it (got it from somebody else, not something I made up), God is much like a Father. When we pray in accordance with Scripture and by faith, and we ask Him to move on our behalf in our lives to do whatever is best in our case, I believe that God considers what is best and can (and IMO, does) guide us to the thing that is best for us. I also believe that God can move according to our desires and what we like and want. I believe that He has a time that is "most expedient" for something to happen, and voila, there it is. But if we, His people, do not desire to marry, I believe God looks at that. If He believes it best for us and for His plan, kingdom, and will of events here on Earth, He may work to influence us, over however much time He merits, that marriage for us in our situation is a good idea. However, if He sees it is better for us to remain unmarried, then He will bless us as the singletons we are.

intricatic · Jun 12, 2009

JonMiller said:
I think that so many people don't do this (date with the knowledge that the people they date are people they might/etc get married to), and that is why they end up in 9 year engagements which are broken (or go into marriage, and then get divorced), or divorces 1-5 years later, or strings of exclusive partners...

JM

From where does this foreknowledge come? Does it happen when you meet someone for the first time? The first date? The second date?

Veryangrymonk · Jun 12, 2009

JesusIsTheOnlyWay said:
Ok, heres the thing about this.

you are partly right and partly wrong.

I'll address the part that I bolded in more detail near the end of my post.

Why do you think that if someone is "searching" that they are desperate?

As a Christian, if you are dating for any reason other than "examining" one another for marriage purposes, then you are doing something wrong, basically acting just like the world really.

If you are just hanging out with someone of the opposite sex as a "friend" that's one thing, but don't call that "dating".

Jesus said this:

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Then as the other brother said, the scripture also says, "He who FINDS a wife FINDS a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord."

Basically you are holding something against guys because they do what? Look for what they need?

If a person is thirsty and in a desert, do you find fault with them because they look for a glass of water? Probably not.

So then why would you find fault with guys when they seek a wife, which God himself said it wasn't good for man to be alone?

Like it or not, the Bible does say that woman was created for the man, and specifically not the other way around.

--

To the bolded part in more detail.

To the point on "marrying out of desperation", I shall say this.

In the ancient world, people did not have exactly the same social structure as we have today. Marriages were arranged, but it was still the woman's choice to refuse or to marry the man. But in general, marriages were arranged. You often grew up with the person you were intended to marry, and so "desperation" was rarely an issue.

In the Bible, there is even a passage in the law which addresses a man and woman who "lose themself" and have sex before marriage, which contrary to our modern way of thinking, the Bible commands them to be married. In the modern world, people tell them something like, "You made one mistake, don't make two mistakes." God on the other hand commands them to marry. And strangely, if they do marry, there is actually nothing even held against them.

These marital structures were very successful for thousands of years, and like I have pointed out in other threads, for some reason they managed to often have ten kids have ten kids have ten kids, etc, and this without electricity or indoor plumbing or gasoline or steam engines. And they lived just fine.

In most of the ancient weddings, including the most successful marriages recorded in the Bible, "Romance" was not even an issue. They were arranged marriages, in some cases where a complete stranger married a complete stranger (or cousin,) whom they had never seen or even heard of before in their life, literally a few days to about 3 months after meeting for the very first time. And they stayed married through as much as 100 years or more in Isaac and Rebekah's case, and for something like 80 years for Jacob with Leah. And then of course we have the law of the kinsman redeemer and Ruth is married to Boaz, whom she had never met or even heard of in her entire life, after knowing him for two days.

So how can this be? Because romance and love are two completely different things, which are not really even related.

Love lays down its life for the other person, that is what Paul said about husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church.

Do you know we were all unworthy sinners, yet Jesus died for us, who were "strangers" and quite frankly, harlots(Rom 7)?

The fact of the matter is, we Christian singles have unrealistic expectations of what marriage is supposed to be.

I mean seriously, God told the prophet Hosea to go marry a woman that he knew ahead of time was a harlot. Literally to go look for a harlot and marry her. This as a parable of how God loved undeserving Israel, and as well the undeserving church. Now which do you suppose that took? "Romance" or "Love"?

It was hardly "romantic". The prophet spent his life wondering who she'd been with this time, and if his kids were really his.

Love isn't necessarily marrying someone who is "right" for you and has everything "together" just as you expect it to be. That's too easy to be love, because it doesn't require you to "deny yourself and take up the cross and follow Jesus." It doesn't require you to lay down your life for the other, because we expect the other to be "semi-perfect" for us to begin with. well, we may not necessarily say that, but it is a hangup for us nonetheless.

If you have real love, then you can marry a complete stranger, assuming they are a christian and also have such love, and it will work.

We have examples of real love in the Bible in such challenging contexts which we often deem "beneath" us in modern culture. Again, I remind you Rebekah drew water for camels for a "random" stranger she'd never met, then hops on the camels and travels half way around the known world to marry a guy she'd never even heard of until that day.

And what about Job and his wife? We only directly see her in a point of weakness in which she criticizes Job and tells him to curse God and die, yet, after the temptation was past, the two of them must have reconciled quite nicely, because Job was starting back over at age 70 and begat 10 more children. Love remains whether the object is the richest person in the world, or whether he is penniless, naked, and covered in festering boils.

We do not see in the Bible where a person says they will love someone else if they have this quality, or that quality, or another. WE see them love even the "unlovable". Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. Paul said a husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself (died) for it. If Christ died for us while we were sinners (alienated from God, filthy, unlean, unrighteous, undeserving,) Then don't we see that Paul is saying we should love one another, even if we are "undeserving"?

I am the first to admit that I have not attained to that by any means. Yet there it is. "Love suffereth long" and "love never faileth".

If we only love those who we deem "deserving" of our love, then we in fact do not have love. We have lust and vainglory.

Thanks this helps alot.. I appreciate everyone advice!! I think i have a clearer understanding of what paul was saying.

I just want to say that its not desperation.. Its more that I dont want to fail God and have sex before marriage. It would be much easier to control a sex drive if it wasn't for are culture.. it IS impossible to avoid elude women in advertising these days and how do you say no to something that is constaly being advertised especially sence you have a biological desire for it?

Sex is not the only reason for marriage but it does force you to take a more active role in finding someone. I like what Jesusistheway siad.. I think it would be much easier in the old days when you just had to learn to love someone(romanticaly that is) that was given you.

JesusIsTheOnlyWay · Jun 12, 2009

intricatic said:
From where does this foreknowledge come? Does it happen when you meet someone for the first time? The first date? The second date?

Why is it that anyone would basically want to spend x number of years "engaged" to somebody and wait around, and wait around before marriage? Its like they want to be "married" before they get married for real, without any commitments(or benefits really)...Such couples are not really couples at all. They are just confused friends who either don't know what they want, or else refuse to commit, and one way or another they have been torturing and depriving one another contrary to Paul's teaching for "betrothed" couples and for the "marriage bed".

If two people can date for such long times, or be engaged for such long times, and NOT have sex, and yet not go ahead and get married, then they should examine themselves whether they really are for one another. If you love someone you are passionate about them, and the "juices" are going to flow. If they aren't then you have two neuter people just hanging out, saying nice things about one another, and exchanging gifts, but you don't have a marriageable relationship.

Finding a mate is not supposed to take a lifetime, nor is evaluating that mate when you find them.

You are supposed to spend your life together. You are supposed to want sexual intimacy and a real life partner, and you are supposed to have it in a reasonable stage of your life. Not catch a few moments together after your best years are past.

The Bible says that a man should "live joyfully with the wife of his youth." He shouldn't be wandering around till he's missed the prime of his life and then happen to marry someone.

I know of cases of such absurdly long engagements where both partners were virgins to begin with and they were engaged and trying to not have sex with one another because supposedly they were still "testing the waters" to make sure they were right with one another. Then the guy one day got alone with his fiance's friend, who he said he absolutely was not romantically interested in, but for "some reason" the devil hit them with tempaton that day and he had sex with her, but never would have sex with his fiance. (which even the Bible pardons on the condition that they are then obligated to marry.) So now, technically, the "letter" of the law actually would have required him to marry his fiance's friend, because she is the one he has sex with...

===

As for where does the "foreknowledge" come from as to who you would like to marry or whether you might like to marry a person, it can come in any number of ways.

For some Christians, God literally speaks to one or both partners and tells them, point blank, or else they "just know."

I know of two couples right off hand that I was very close to several years back, and they each got married just a few months after meeting one another for the first time. This has already been about 4 and 5 years ago respectively, and they are still married. In the case of the one couple, they went from "saw you at church one day," to "friends," to "married" literally within a few weeks.

The strange thing is, I KNEW they were going to get married and they were right for one another (really right, not the "everything I expected" right), because God showed me in both cases before they even started "dating", and still at the "friends" or "barely know you" stage.

The day I over heard the second woman talking to the second guy, before they were even dating, it was very much mixed feelings, because I had the biggest crush on her of anyone in my life. I wasn't eavesdropping, but I overhear her talking to the guy, just talking, weren't dating, barely even knew one another really. It was actually at a youth camp, and all of us "early twenty-somethings" were there as counsellors. It was like God just dropped it on me; they are called to one another.

It was a terribly bittersweet feeling, because part of me loved her to death and wanted what was best for her, but the other part really loved her also, but wanted her for me. But I thank God for what he has done for them. They've been married for about 4 years now and have a ~ two year old son now.

"What God has joined together, let not man put assunder."

These are some of the most successful young couples I know of, and they literally married almost on first sight, much like my parents and my brother and his wife.

===

But for others, like I've said, love isn't about being with somebody who does everything right and meets all your expectations. That's too easy to be love.

There are lots of fish in the ocean. If we are hungry and we catch a fish which is legal size, then we typically keep it, take it home and eat it. We do not put it in a gold fish tank and keep it there and stare at it every day and whatever. We want(and need) the meal, not the menu.

A guy doesn't need someone to be his friend or girlfriend for x number of years, and then "maybe we will get married." He needs a wife, and it should be the "wife of his youth".

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2009

intricatic said:
From where does this foreknowledge come? Does it happen when you meet someone for the first time? The first date? The second date?

Your questions seem entirely unrelated to what I was posting, and shows that you didn't comprehend what I was posting.

I would suggest rereading, and removing your biases and blinders.

JM

Inkachu · Jun 12, 2009

FWIW - I agree with JITOW on this thread. And I know he and Quirk were disagreeing, but I'd like to point out that Quirk is 22 and JITOW is 28; your perspectives are probably a world apart given your age difference.

Honestly, I'd much rather have a good, solid Christian guy step up to the plate and say to me, "We might not know each other very well, but I'm willing to marry you and love you and be faithful to you forever", than go through the whole idiocy of dating anymore.

The whole modern "try out a bunch of people and then marry the one who tickles your fancy the best" way of thinking is revolting and stupid to me.

Back in "the day", a woman who found herself as a single mother (perhaps through rape or being widowed) would not have to kill herself working and trying to raise her children alone. A man would step up and offer to marry her because that's the honorable and noble thing to do. There was no dating period, there was no wondering if it would "work out". You married, you loved that person, you were faithful, and you made it work.

I know. Chivalry's dead.

/rant

intricatic · Jun 12, 2009

JesusIsTheOnlyWay said:
If two people can date for such long times, or be engaged for such long times, and NOT have sex, and yet not go ahead and get married, then they should examine themselves whether they really are for one another. If you love someone you are passionate about them, and the "juices" are going to flow. If they aren't then you have two neuter people just hanging out, saying nice things about one another, and exchanging gifts, but you don't have a marriageable relationship.

I disagree. Your proposition here would imply that sexual intimacy is the underlying function of marriage, or romantic relationships. It takes time to learn who a person is; rushing into marriage is not a wise decision, one way or the other, and neither is an unhealthy focus on sex.

JesusIsTheOnlyWay · Jun 12, 2009

Inkabink said:
FWIW - I agree with JITOW on this thread. And I know he and Quirk were disagreeing, but I'd like to point out that Quirk is 22 and JITOW is 28; your perspectives are probably a world apart given your age difference.

Honestly, I'd much rather have a good, solid Christian guy step up to the plate and say to me, "We might not know each other very well, but I'm willing to marry you and love you and be faithful to you forever", than go through the whole idiocy of dating anymore.

The whole modern "try out a bunch of people and then marry the one who tickles your fancy the best" way of thinking is revolting and stupid to me.

Back in "the day", a woman who found herself as a single mother (perhaps through rape or being widowed) would not have to kill herself working and trying to raise her children alone. A man would step up and offer to marry her because that's the honorable and noble thing to do. There was no dating period, there was no wondering if it would "work out". You married, you loved that person, you were faithful, and you made it work.

I know. Chivalry's dead.

/rant

Well, you are "ranting" for a good reason though, because you are absolutely right.

In the Bible, in the case of widows, the man's next available male kin was required to marry her, which was what the whole backdrop of the book of Ruth was about. We don't see Boaz complaining to God like, "Oh Lord, why am I stuck with her? She isn't even a Jewess for goodness sake!"

No, once he realizes his obligation, he is willing, pleased, and proactive to perform it.

===

I want to address this following post yet again, because I have something else to say about it.

Originally Posted by intricatic

From where does this foreknowledge come? Does it happen when you meet someone for the first time? The first date? The second date?

I will admit that this can be a tricky situation. We do have to be at peace with God about such things, as we can be mislead by emotions.

Still, let us say these things are true:

1) You know you want to marry and you are sure God has never told you otherwise.

2) You have met someone, and the "door" is open because you've either dated or known each other for a while, and etc.

3) Your prayers are for God's will first and your percieved needs and desires second. You pray on behalf of what is best for that person you are interested in.

4) You see no "real" reason why the two of you couldn't work out. I'm not talking about silly prejudices and games.

Given these things, it takes a certain act of faith. The world doesn't have an issue of faith here, because they either don't believe fornication is a sin, or aren't looking for marriage anyway, at least not under christian terms.

But for us, there is an act of faith that God will make a way, and God will make it work.

Jordan doesn't part until the priest takes a step. The priests and Joshua could stand there praying all day long, but the water didn't part ahead of time. It parted when they took the first step into the water. That is how faith works. The first step was "impossible" in the natural, but once that step was taken, by faith, the river dried up and the remainder of the crossing was easy by comparison. They went over on dry ground.

Here, Jordan is that "impossible" question, "What if it doesn't work? What if he/she isn't the one? What if we hit financial hardship? What if, what if, what if?" But if it is love, then there is no reason why it shouldn't work. Love isn't an emotional attachment. It is a fruit of the Spirit.

We are so used to seeing the failed relationships that we almost cannot concieve of a successful one. It is as though we expect things to fail, and this is one reason why people won't commit.

intricatic · Jun 12, 2009

JonMiller said:
Your questions seem entirely unrelated to what I was posting, and shows that you didn't comprehend what I was posting.

I would suggest rereading, and removing your biases and blinders.

JM

Which biases and blinders are you referring to?

intricatic · Jun 12, 2009

JesusIsTheOnlyWay said:
We are so used to seeing the failed relationships that we almost cannot concieve of a successful one. It is as though we expect things to fail, and this is one reason why people won't commit.

If, practically speaking, circumstances in the present prevent any serious ambitions of marriage, given the fulfillment of other criteria relevant to the decision, blind faith is not something required of by any Christian. Preparation and planning for a future are synonymous with patience, which is a virtue.

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2009

And people not committing causes them to fail. Is probably the biggest reason for failure.

I don't think you go into a marriage and think that God will take care of everything, though. As with being a Christian, God saves, but it does require work on your part (studying God's Word, scripture, prayer, doing and not just talking).

So we go into the relationship knowing that if we are choosing based on God's principles, that if we do what God instructs us to do, God will take care of the rest.

Currently, one of the central questions I have about a girl is "where is God's place in her life". It wasn't always the case, often the most important question (And still is an important question) was "will she like me?".

I like even bad people, so I don't assume that will be a problem.

JM

JonMiller · Jun 12, 2009

intricatic said:
Which biases and blinders are you referring to?

You seem to be talking about something completely different than what I was talking about. This is normally caused by blinders and biases causing someone to assume that someone else is talking about something that they aren't.

JM

JesusIsTheOnlyWay · Jun 12, 2009

intricatic said:
I disagree. Your proposition here would imply that sexual intimacy is the underlying function of marriage, or romantic relationships. It takes time to learn who a person is; rushing into marriage is not a wise decision, one way or the other, and neither is an unhealthy focus on sex.

Sexual intimacy IS the distinguishing function of marriage, from any other "friendship" or business relationship.

If you care to refute this from the Bible, be my guest, but I do believe you will have a very hard time supporting your position.

Almost all of the teaching in the Bible about marriage have direct sexual intimacy involved. I can show multiples of the proverbs and the new testament to support this.

In fact, there is not even such a thing as a notion in the Bible that there exists such a thing as "too much focus on sex," in the confines of marriage. We even have quite a few scriptures that imply just the opposite, suggesting that they should abstain only for the purposes of fasting and prayer.

Proverbs 5:15Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.

16Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
17Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
18Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

I love a lot of people, and pray for them and etc, but the Bible tells me that the only person I should have sex with is a woman who is my wife.

I don't see how that can be said to be an unhealthy view.

On the other hand, two people "dating" or "engaged" for year after year and without commiting and without "doing" anything IS unhealthy. They are repressing and supressing what God himself put in them for their benefit and enjoyment.

* kittie * · Jun 12, 2009

JonMiller said:
There is dating with the goal of getting married, and dating without the goal of getting married.

Since I don't have sex with someone I am not married to or going to get married to, I am just getting to know or be friends with girls I am not exclusively dating. And if I am getting to know them, and I like them, and there seems like there might be a possibility of exclusively dating, then I will want to know whether there is the possibility of getting married in the future.

I don't want to just suddenly find out that I am emotionally intimate (physically intimate even worse) with the person and in love with them, but that they are all wrong for me. I also don't want to spend my efforts chasing someone (and if it is more than some casual dating, it is efforts), and have them be completely wrong for me. At worse, it is a waste of my time.

This all just seems rational to me.

JM

I agree.

Tamara224 · Jun 12, 2009

Inkabink said:
FWIW - I agree with JITOW on this thread. And I know he and Quirk were disagreeing, but I'd like to point out that Quirk is 22 and JITOW is 28; your perspectives are probably a world apart given your age difference.

I was thinking the same thing. A 22 year old who isn't currently seeking marriage is likely to be turned off by a man who says on the first date "hey, I'm dating with marriage in mind." When I was 19 I very briefly dated a guy, 22, who told me after our third date that he was looking to get married and settle down. Scared the crap out of me and sent me running.

Whereas, a 25+ woman who is seeking marriage and has a good idea what she wants is going to be happy to hear that she's not wasting her time getting to know a guy who isn't interested in marriage. I would not currently waste any time on a guy who told me he didn't know if he was ready to settle down or was definitely not looking to get married.

Personally, if I'm on a date with a guy, I'm evaluating his personality etc with the purpose of determining whether he is marriage material. I expect him to be doing the same to me. I don't see any problem with that as I think it's the purpose of dating.

So, yeah, all of that to say that age plays a big part in it and, as usual - it's really about compatibility. If a person would be turned off by the idea of a potential mate dating with marriage in mind... then that's a pretty clear indication that he/she's a compatible person for the one who is seeking marriage. Move on and find someone who shares your goal.

Honestly, I'd much rather have a good, solid Christian guy step up to the plate and say to me, "We might not know each other very well, but I'm willing to marry you and love you and be faithful to you forever", than go through the whole idiocy of dating anymore.

The whole modern "try out a bunch of people and then marry the one who tickles your fancy the best" way of thinking is revolting and stupid to me.

Back in "the day", a woman who found herself as a single mother (perhaps through rape or being widowed) would not have to kill herself working and trying to raise her children alone. A man would step up and offer to marry her because that's the honorable and noble thing to do. There was no dating period, there was no wondering if it would "work out". You married, you loved that person, you were faithful, and you made it work.

I know. Chivalry's dead.

/rant

I couldn't agree more. I am absolutely sick to death of hearing people talk about finding the "right" one as if there's one special person out there who will guarantee a long and successful marriage. Marriages are good and last because people do the right things - they choose to love one another, they make it work. Marriages don't fail because people picked the wrong person - they fail because people do the wrong things - they're selfish, they sin, they don't love one another and don't make it work.

And, honestly, I'm sick to death of namby-pamby men who won't just DECIDE that they want to marry, pick a good woman and COMMIT to her!

Just do it.

/rant.

ethan03 · Jun 12, 2009

Veryangrymonk said:
Me and a friend of mine hand an disagreement on the verse
1 Corinthians 7:27

If you have a wife, do not seek to end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not seek to get married.

to me all these verses are saying seek one
Pro 18:22
Pro19:14
Gen. 2:18
1 Cor. 7:3-5

Its not a question on weather or not its good or if you should. Its a question on whether you should SEEK to be Married. IE Dating sites, making and extra effort to meet singles. To me I think that my God given sex drive says I should FIND someone.

SO the question is this should i just wait for God to drop a women down from the sky into my arms. Or are there any verses that say you should activity look for someone?????Or was is a good explanation of what Paul was saying???

in this verse paul is telling you two different things
1) if you have a wife, don't divorce her (duh)
2) if don't have a wife, don't look for one-- (cause that's the wrong approach.)
....
expanding on 2: When you see that perfect girl that could turn your world upside down, and would make a perfect mate -- stop! that's the wrong approach cause you'll usually never get her. you gotta change your thinking to "how much does this girl annoy me." then you're on the right track to getting her.

i speak truth.

Hoankan · Jun 14, 2009

Thread closed for staff review

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