Should you devalue all of a man's ministry because of a failure in one area?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This is why I think that it is a much better idea to see justification and sanctification as the same thing, or dependent on each other. Sanctification justifies us; our works, our lives, our words in private, all matter..

Wrong, sanctification isn’t found in justification. Everyone is justifiably fit to meet God’s standards. That is the least of what Christ brings. No person is exempt from the offer to secure life in Christ. However if the consecrated is used for carnal then how is that vessel justified still to a position of honour? The parable of the vessel clearly shows the process of sanctification apart from justification.

…20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himselfof what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor:sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared forevery good work. 22Flee from youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, together with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.…

 

[lismore]

Another question, there always seems to be interest in the celebrity abuser's ministry and his career, what can be done to restore it or him etc. But there is less interest in the victims of abuse, what can be done to restore them, what can be done to prevent it's reoccurrence. Perhaps a symptom of a celebrity obsessed culture seeping into the church.

 

[ripple the car]

Another question, there always seems to be interest in the celebrity abuser's ministry and his career, what can be done to restore it or him etc. But there is less interest in the victims of abuse, what can be done to restore them, what can be done to prevent it's reoccurrence. Perhaps a symptom of a celebrity obsessed culture seeping into the church.

Yes… I think we are desperate for heroes. We are desperate for apparently good, Godly-seeming men to just be trustworthy, good, Godly, and innocent. In our desperation for our heroes to be protected and to be awesome, we can step over and ignore very real pain, and excuse terrible things.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Wrong, sanctification isn’t found in justification. Everyone is justifiably fit to meet God’s standards. That is the least of what Christ brings. No person is exempt from the offer to secure life in Christ. However if the consecrated is used for carnal then how is that vessel justified still to a position of honour? The parable of the vessel clearly shows the process of sanctification apart from justification.

…20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use. 21So if anyone cleanses himselfof what is unfit, he will be a vessel for honor:sanctified, useful to the Master, and prepared forevery good work. 22Flee from youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, together with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.…

Celebrity clergy also come under the tent of using their position for carnality therefore removing any honour due them (guilt). Willful sinning against others (shame) does not make their vessel unclean as the victim in that case is still independent in their vessel. I think there is a whole lot to be cleaned up about that.

 

[lismore]

One example of an unhealthy celebrity culture in the church could be this:
Jim Bakker - Wikipedia

This televangelist is back on air selling stuff of dubious authenticity after fraud convictions including using ministry funds to pay off a victim of alleged rape. But many of the people who were frauded out of their life savings will not see their money again, they're the ones that should be on air and feted by the church. God Bless

 

[BNR32FAN]

Except that slavery and lynching--as well as the sympathy for slavery and lynchings--were the acts of groups, of congregations, of towns, of cities, of entire states. People had picnics under the charred bodies of lynch victims and went to church the next day with no conviction or recriminations.

In cases like that, yes, one can indeed just entire groups. Take this group, for instance. Nobody in this photograph is innocent...innocent people were at home.

2EVSGJD23QZZPIM2EA666MJNV4.jpg (982×648) (washingtonpost.com)

But when you get into labeling entire groups you begin accusing innocent people. Like you said entire states were guilty of these atrocities yet I think we both know that isn’t actually true. The Underground Railroad is an example of true Christians within those states.

 

[renniks]

Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)

No...I don't think so. I'm not going to run out and throw my Ravi Zacharias books away because he like all of us, failed to live what he claimed to believe.

 

[jamiec]

Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)

In principle - not necessarily.

If the failure is serious enough, then yes.

Salvation by grace, though a fact, cannot be made an excuse or cover for serious, possibly criminal, delinquencies.

Some evils are committed because the circumstances are themselves a temptation; whereas, in different circumstances, the temptation would evaporate.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Note, this is a blind post. If I repeat a point someone else has already made, I haven't read it.

The strongest sin can be forgiven. King David committed adultery with a married woman, then arranged to have her husband killed so he could marry her. This on top of the multiple wives and concubines he already had. These were serious sins, punishable by the death of his baby son, but his kingdom (what in modern-day US would be a ministry) remained intact.

Similarly, some churches and some individuals have ripped the song "For Those Tears I Died" right out of their hymn books. Why? Because one of the songwriters, Marsha Stevens, later came out as lesbian. I don't wish to debate that topic. What I'm saying here is, it wouldn't matter if a toadstool had written those words, they are a blessing from God Almighty. He can use anyone or anything to do His will.

 

[jamiec]

Even a serious failure.

Of course it happens that way, but should it? Even our leaders and prophets are 'sinners saved by grace'

I'm thinking of Ravi Zacharias. And there are others.

People whose flesh gets in the way of their ministry. (There is a discernment minister who occasionally admits his emotions get the better of him when calling out heretics and apostates)

If he had been a Catholic priest, what would Evangelicals have thought ? If a non-Evangelical would have been harshly condemned, then why not condemn an Evangelical equally harshly ? It should be far easier for Evangelicals to root out this evil in their midst, than for members of more hierarchical Churches to do so.

RZ sounds like an Evangelical scumbag, no better than the paedo scum who disgrace the Catholic priesthood. It's a disgrace that these vermin cannot be drowned, millstone and all.