Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
This is how I feel as well, quite strongly.
P.S. Simon, I responded to you above but we posted at the same time. You may not have caught it.
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I just accept the fact that God cannot be completely comprehended by such limited minds as ours!
Thank you for that. I was indeed being sincere. I have no ill-will toward you.
I don't think it's that I CANNOT "see the link between the True Nature of God and the gospel" as much as that I'm not there yet.
You may notice I don't entirely believe the same as most non-trins either.
The reason I am seeking to be a Messianic believer is that I believe man has made a muck of things and I'm trying to get back to what Yeshua wanted from us. Who can find fault with that?
I try to bepirit led as much as I can, but I am only beginning my journey.
So forgive me for not changing my mind based on all you have written, but you are a man.
Much of what I believe DOES change as I come to new understandings.
I have not yet come to any new understandings on this matter. God has given me many "aha" moments here lately, but I've had none on this particular issue one or way or the other.
That is why I come here to sort through the many different ways we all have of looking at things. I have heard and considered your words, and I will continue to consider them.
Trinitarians will think you are spot on. unitarians will think your posts are total illogic, contradiction, and nonsense, oneness will swap quid pro quo contradiction for contradiction and nonsense for nonsense. Depends on the moderators theology as to how sound they would think your arguments are. As a point of fact though, unitarians are the only ones that are logical, non contradictory and make sense. We have logic on our side, no one else does.
Please address the above honest arguments properly without resorting to fabrications. If you are going to continue fabricating and discussing what wasn't said rather then what was actually said. Then and only will i stay put and enjoy my cup of ice cream while watching you get all tied up in your contradictory and Judgemental philosophical knots!
Well, when you don't have an actual argument why not invent one?
I never said there is no such thing as truth and that everyone truth and/or opinions of whats truth are valid as you falsely attributed to me in your post.
This post is so far from the truth that it's not even worth responding to.
YOU HAVE NOT YET PROVEN that BELIEF IN THE TRINITY IS essential for the Salvation of others. I, nor anyone on these forums will be held accountable by God for not understanding to the fullest his nature.
Furthermore, it is impossible for any fallible human to understand this, it is only self proclaimed infallible humans as yourself that require all these philosophies essential for individuals.
Philosophies are for the Greeks not for me, sorry!
This is how I feel as well, quite strongly.
P.S. Simon, I responded to you above but we posted at the same time. You may not have caught it.
I have a question.
Those of us who believe in non-trin or unitarian way are often accused of using intellect to create our own version of God. But isn't intellect a necessary component? I know there is a strong argument for faith, but aren't we also called to be on the lookout for false prophets? How are we do that without using our intellect to be able to sort out the true from the false?
Please address the above honest arguments properly without resorting to fabrications. If you are going to continue fabricating and discussing what wasn't said rather then what was actually said. Then and only will i stay put and enjoy my cup of ice cream while watching you get all tied up in your contradictory and Judgemental philosophical knots!
You're not counter arguing anything, you have no argument. All you have done is continue to expose your inability to address honest arguments. I'm not here trying to tear down your Trinitarian beliefs. I'm trying to reason with you to see if i can reach the same conclusion you have as far as understanding the nature of God.Sorry, but unless you can put together a cohesive argument as to why you believe the Trinity is wrong then I'm just not going to waste any more time with you. I have stated repeatedly why I believe that the Trinity is the truth and like all Unitarians you have just ignored all of my sound counter-arguments because they are theologically unassailable.
Actually, i am not Christian, Unitarian nor Trinitarian, i am Jewish! As a Jew i've come to possibly consider a lot of possibilities regarding the nature of God. One of which maybe a plurality in the nature of the Almighty, though the reality is that there is only one, echad which is to bring into unity! The Shema mentions a pluralness in God's nature not a unitarian nature. Deut 6:4 Shema Israel, Adonai Elohaneu Adonai echad. As i've stated before, if the Shema was only a singular reference, then it would have to read Shema Israel, Adonai Echad only.If you can show me where the Bible states that 'only the Father is God' or 'only the Son is God' or 'only the Holy Spirit is God' or that 'the Messiah is only human but not Divine', then (and only then) will I take you (or any other Unitarian for that matter) seriously. Until then, any other discussion is irrelevant. I refuse, point blank, to continually justify the truth to you simply because you refuse to believe it. Since Trinitarianism has been orthodox Christian doctrine from the outset the onus is on the Unitarian heretics to disprove it and not on the Church to have to continually justify it to each new generation that refuses to believe it.
Let me ask you a personal question...I know that I can be arrogant and condescending but would you say that I come accross as being dishonest in my arguments?
Would you say that I ignore parts of the Scriptures in order to argue my case or would you say that I seek to incorporate the full Scriptural revelation into my theology?
Everyone uses intellect, and logic in trying to interpret the word of God except when they have some doctrine that is contradictory, nonsensical, illogical and or contradictory, in which case they poo poo anyone who tries to point out thier illogic. Otherwise, in every other doctrine that they have that makes sense, they will always use logic to point out how it is true. people only throw intellect or logic out the window when it affects there doctrine negatively. EVen then they try and use as much intellect or logic as they can in interpreting scripture to support their illogical contradictory doctrine. Logic is only thrown out the window even then when absolutely necessary to hold on to their contradictory beliefs.I have a question.
Those of us who believe in non-trin or unitarian way are often accused of using intellect to create our own version of God. But isn't intellect a necessary component? I know there is a strong argument for faith, but aren't we also called to be on the lookout for false prophets? How are we do that without using our intellect to be able to sort out the true from the false?
That is much of the problem, people have vested intrests in their beliefs because they spent so much time developing them. but then everyone who disagrees with me would probably say the same about me.[/color]
Absolutely not. You are very honest in your arguments, but I see that others who have participated are as well. Everyone is just looking at this quite differently. I see proof on both sides of this very complex issue.
I think you may ignore scripture that non-trinitarians bring to the table. Ignore may too harsh a word.
In any case, everyone here seems to have put real thought AND heart into the argument.
Greetings Simonline,If you're foolish enough to base your everlasting destiny upon just one verse of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, ripped out of any and all context, instead of the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the Word of God (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) then there is no hope for you.
The Messiah said what He said (as recorded in Jn.6:57) because He is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a man (something that would be absolutely impossible for a Unitarian 'God'). The truth is that the Messiah lives because He is both God [YHWH] and man [Jesus of Nazareth]. As both Eternally and Immutably Divine, the Son is dependent upon no-one (Jn.8:58; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13). Only as incarnate human is the Son dependent upon (and subject to) the Father (Jn.14:28).
Simonline.
simonline said:If you can show me where the Bible states that 'only the Father is God'
The bible doesn't say that it says God the Father is the only true God, not Jesus.simonline said:or 'only the Son is God' or 'only the Holy Spirit is God'
It doesn't say Jesus is a chicken either but he aint a chicken, It doesn't say that Jesus isn't a hog, butJesus isn't a hog, it doesn't say that JEsus isn't an american, but he isn't an american, etcetera etcetera etecetera. It does say he is a man right now.simonline said:or that 'the Messiah is only human but not Divine'
Trinity isn't truth, it isn't even in the bible. and my take on your posts is that you refuse point blank to prove your doctrine from scripture. all you have are scriptures that you intepret to mean trinity, nothing else.simonline said:, then (and only then) will I take you (or any other Unitarian for that matter) seriously. Until then, any other discussion is irrelevant. I refuse, point blank, to continually justify the truth
says you not history. history says trinity came about from the council of nicea. your facts are all screwed up.simonline said:to you simply because you refuse to believe it. Since Trinitarianism has been orthodox Christian doctrine from the outset
ah what is a proof of t rinity without calling us heretics. heretic is a word invented to scare people into believeing the nonsensical doctrine of the tirnity cause it is so illogical, contradictory, and nonsensiocal that no one would believe it otherwise.simonline said:the onus is on the Unitarian heretics
no bible proof of trinitysimonline said:to disprove it and not on the Church to have to continually justify it to each new generation that refuses to believe it.
Let's just look at the one bible verse 2duck provided. To me, this ONE verse points both ways.1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Clearly this points to a unitarian God and rejects the trinity.yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him;
What do we do this? One Lord? How is the word Lord used in Hebrew? I equate it with God. Isn't this line saying Jesus is God?and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
The bible says that there is one Lord one faith one baptism. But there are 2 baptisms. the baptism of the Holy spirit and water baptism. there are two Lords, the Lord God and the Lord Jesus, so the question is who is the one Lord. Discounting the argument that 2 beings are one being( as most christians presume0 based on the fact that it is nonsensical to the max.Let's just look at the one bible verse 2duck provided. To me, this ONE verse points both ways.
Clearly this points to a unitarian God and rejects the trinity.
What do we do this? One Lord? How is the word Lord used in Hebrew? I equate it with God. Isn't this line saying Jesus is God?
The stumbling block is the word "and". Essentially, the verse is saying there is one God and also one Jesus, whom the scripture refers to as "Lord".
Am I talking in circles?
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