Should women be allowed to go topless in public?

[Eudaimonist]

Not that I personally want to walk around with my woman bits exposed

Not that you have to want this, but I'm curious why you don't.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Lol eh..its more out of personal comfort. Its not that there's anything wrong with them..but I feel better if they're covered for the most part.

 

[gengwall]

I don't understand the prudish sexualization of the female breasts. Breasts are not sex organs. While, in a sexual setting, the breasts and nipples can be an erogenous zone, that characteristic is not limited to our breasts. Men's breasts/nipples can be as equally erotic to them as ours are to us. So, the sexuality of breasts/nipples is not limited to just women's breasts. But, on a hot summer day, walking around without a shirt is not a sexual setting. I think that women should be permitted to be shirtless anywhere it is allowed for a man to be shirtless

The female body in toto is sexually stimulating to males. The breasts just happen to be a prominent part of the whole package which we like. Now, does that mean that clothing stops the salivating? Of course not. In many cases a little wisp of clothing is far more stimulating than no clothing at all.

 

[gengwall]

Of course, this thread does require me to reprise on these boards my most favorite piece of dialog from one of my most favorite movies: "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World"

J. Algernon Hawthorne: I must say that if I had the grievous misfortune to be a citizen of this benighted country, I should be the most hesitant of offering any criticism whatever of any other.
J. Russell Finch: Wait a minute, are you knocking this country? Are you saying something against America?
J. Algernon Hawthorne: Against it? I should be positively astounded to hear anything that could be said FOR it. Why the whole bloody place is the most unspeakable matriarchy in the whole history of civilization! Look at yourself! The way your wife and her strumpet of a mother push you through the hoop! As far as I can see, American men have been totally emasculated- they're like slaves! They die like flies from coronary thrombosis while their women sit under hairdryers eating chocolates & arranging for every 2nd Tuesday to be some sort of Mother's Day! And this infantile preoccupation with bosoms. In all my time in this Godforsaken country, the one thing that has appalled me most of all is this prepostrous preoccupation with bosoms. Don't you realize they have become the dominant theme in American culture: in literature, advertising and all fields of entertainment and everything. I'll wager you anything you like that if American women stopped wearing brassieres, your whole national economy would collapse overnight.

 

[stan1980]

Of course, this thread does require me to reprise on these boards my most favorite piece of dialog from one of my most favorite movies: "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World"

J. Algernon Hawthorne: I must say that if I had the grievous misfortune to be a citizen of this benighted country, I should be the most hesitant of offering any criticism whatever of any other.
J. Russell Finch: Wait a minute, are you knocking this country? Are you saying something against America?
J. Algernon Hawthorne: Against it? I should be positively astounded to hear anything that could be said FOR it. Why the whole bloody place is the most unspeakable matriarchy in the whole history of civilization! Look at yourself! The way your wife and her strumpet of a mother push you through the hoop! As far as I can see, American men have been totally emasculated- they're like slaves! They die like flies from coronary thrombosis while their women sit under hairdryers eating chocolates & arranging for every 2nd Tuesday to be some sort of Mother's Day! And this infantile preoccupation with bosoms. In all my time in this Godforsaken country, the one thing that has appalled me most of all is this prepostrous preoccupation with bosoms. Don't you realize they have become the dominant theme in American culture: in literature, advertising and all fields of entertainment and everything. I'll wager you anything you like that if American women stopped wearing brassieres, your whole national economy would collapse overnight.

Nice, and which country was this character "J. Algernon Hawthorne" from?

 

[gengwall]

Nice, and which country was this character "J. Algernon Hawthorne" from?

England, of course!

 

[stan1980]

England, of course!

That's what I suspected but I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[gengwall]

That's what I suspected but I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Oh - you haven't seen it? I thought the question was rhetorical. Well, in defense of the Americans he was berating, I will say that the character of J. Algernon Hawthorne is not what one might call a red hot blooded manly man. So it may be that just HE doesn't understand the preoccupation with bossoms.

I read a book recently that took an athropological and evolutionary approach to the differences in the sexes. I think a lot of what they said makes sense, even though I may not agree with the "origins" of the male and female tendancies they illustrate. Their conclusion was that men have a preoccupation with various forms and shapes of the female body for progenitory reasons. In particular, hip to waist ratio preferences seem to be genetic in males. It is also possible that males have certain, shall we say, mammory preferences which relate to a females potential for nuturing strong healthy children. Those preferences for the natural purpose of breasts have a sexual manifestation - the "better" the breasts (and this doesn't necessarily relate to size), the more men want to have sex with a woman. So, our "preoccupation with bossoms", as J Algernon puts it, may in fact be genetic and have evolved for good reason.

 

[stan1980]

Oh - you haven't seen it? I thought the question was rhetorical. Well, in defense of the Americans he was berating, I will say that the character of J. Algernon Hawthorne is not what one might call a red hot blooded manly man. So it may be that just HE doesn't understand the preoccupation with bossoms.

Ah, stereotypical English prude I bet

I read a book recently that took an athropological and evolutionary approach to the differences in the sexes. I think a lot of what they said makes sense, even though I may not agree with the "origins" of the male and female tendancies they illustrate. Their conclusion was that men have a preoccupation with various forms and shapes of the female body for progenitory reasons. In particular, hip to waist ratio preferences seem to be genetic in males. It is also possible that males have certain, shall we say, mammory preferences which relate to a females potential for nuturing strong healthy children. Those preferences for the natural purpose of breasts have a sexual manifestation - the "better" the breasts (and this doesn't necessarily relate to size), the more men want to have sex with a woman. So, our "preoccupation with bossoms", as J Algernon puts it, may in fact be genetic and have evolved for good reason.

It's a good theory, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it is true.

 

[gengwall]

Ah, stereotypical English prude I bet

The term "fop" comes to mind. Although he really can't be called a prude since his attitude is casual, not moralistic, toward breasts.

You should watch the movie. Plenty of stereotypes to go around. The stereotype of the testosterone driven, sex craving, violence provoking, (yet ironically "momma's boyish") post adolescent male is particularly hilareous.

 

[stan1980]

You should watch the movie. Plenty of stereotypes to go around. The stereotype of the testosterone driven, sex craving, violence provoking, (yet ironically "momma's boyish") post adolescent male is particularly hilareous.

Downloading now. I see it was made in 1963, that would explain the comments from the Englishman.

 

[GrannieAnnie]

All this long winded discussion about a womans boobs....life must be awfully dull............

 

[IzzyPop]

All this long winded discussion about a womans boobs....life must be awfully dull............

Not if there are boobs in it...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Not if there are boobs in it...

Boobs are nature's way of keeping life interesting.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[cantata]

Hmmm, that's an interesting argument. But I suspect that the result would actually be that the vulva/vagina would end up being the only "area of interest".

Perhaps it wouldn't if full nudity were legal and culturally acceptable and practiced?

Perhaps.

But is it really that nipples are offensive? I'm not so certain.

I'm more inclined to think that people see the sight of certain body parts as a kind of undesired sexual involvement with the nude or semi-nude person, for themselves or others. For people whom sexuality and nudity are inextricably mixed, the way to keep one's sexual distance is to be covered up by a suitable amount of clothing.

Consider how women are irritated when their boyfriends/husbands look at other women, e.g. passing them by on the street. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the cultural forces preventing the exposure of bare breasts is women who don't like to see straying eyes.

But this doesn't answer the question of why nipples in particular are the bit that a woman has to cover up to be seen in public.

People will look anyway, whether breasts are bared or hidden. I know that it's not nudity that turns me on, but a shapely bottom or the nice curve of a waist, or whatever. Partial nudity, just by itself, does little to arouse my attention. And I would imagine that if more women wandered around topless, eventually the novelty would wear off, and people would look at them no more than they looked at a woman with a nice clothed pair of breasts. Once upon a time, no one exposed their legs in public; now, although we still look at legs, we don't often walk into lamp posts because we're staring at them.

In any case, we shouldn't base our legal policies about nudity on issues of jealousy within certain relationships.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But this doesn't answer the question of why nipples in particular are the bit that a woman has to cover up to be seen in public.

No, of course it doesn't. I'll bet it's partly cultural, and partly for evolutionary biology reasons.

My guess (just a guess) is that as the human species had evolved to walk upright, breasts grew in size to visually represent buttocks, and the nipples came to represent the vagina. These are potential visual cues for sexual arousal.

This potential is maximized when breasts are covered up. It is much less when they are not normally covered up.

I know that it's not nudity that turns me on, but a shapely bottom or the nice curve of a waist, or whatever.

Nudity does carry a special charge for me, but a good shape underneath clothing is still sexy.

However, the shape underneath the clothing is sexy at least in part because of the sense of mystery of what is beneath, but that just leads right back to thoughts of nudity.

I would imagine that if more women wandered around topless, eventually the novelty would wear off, and people would look at them no more than they looked at a woman with a nice clothed pair of breasts.

I agree.

In any case, we shouldn't base our legal policies about nudity on issues of jealousy within certain relationships.

Yes, that's my view as well. Sweden gets along well enough with no laws against even full nudity, even in the summer months when this can actually be practiced.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[cantata]

No, of course it doesn't. I'll bet it's partly cultural, and partly for evolutionary biology reasons.

My guess (just a guess) is that as the human species had evolved to walk upright, breasts grew in size to visually represent buttocks, and the nipples came to represent the vagina. These are potential visual cues for sexual arousal.

Very Desmond Morris!

I think it's more likely that the mouth represents the vagina. We humans have remarkably full lips in comparison to our ape relatives, and it's been suggested that they're there for sexual display. It's certainly true that large breasts are not necessary for milk production. A woman with a smaller bust can produce just as much milk, and in fact, if you look at a nursing female chimpanzee, you'll notice that she's very flat-chested.

Which leaves the nipple issue mysterious. What I'd imagine is that the nipples are just easily definable portions of the breast - otherwise it's just flesh. Just as if you see any bottom cleavage, or indeed the split between the vaginal lips (or a glimpse of pubic hair), that's deemed to be inappropriate as well. It's an easily-defined line.

If you think about it, for a very long time it was inappropriate to show the underside of a breast, for example - and as the law has had to get more specific, the nipple rule has come into play.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think it's more likely that the mouth represents the vagina.

Yes, or both the lips and the nipples. I see no reason why there can't be multiple cues.

I was thinking that nipples could be cues for the vagina because nipples are often pink much like the vagina is. However, they aren't pink in all women, so maybe that's a bit weak as a hypothesis.

What I'd imagine is that the nipples are just easily definable portions of the breast - otherwise it's just flesh.

I like your hypothesis. It makes sense.

Just as if you see any bottom cleavage, or indeed the split between the vaginal lips (or a glimpse of pubic hair), that's deemed to be inappropriate as well. It's an easily-defined line.

Yes, true. I can get strangely annoyed if I see one of those "microkinis" that attempt to show as much of the outer labia as possible without showing the line of the cleft, and you may have hit on the reason why.

If you think about it, for a very long time it was inappropriate to show the underside of a breast, for example - and as the law has had to get more specific, the nipple rule has come into play.

Yes, that's right. And the underside of the breast isn't quite as surprising as it used to be.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[billwald]

Back in the 50's when I saw my first Bikini bathing suit it was on a 50 year old woman who was 50 pounds overweight. I think the best way to reduce sex crimes is to require nudity in public. I thank God for permitting Edison to invent the electric light SWITCH. I can turn off the lights and make believe I am 25 years old instead of 67.

 

[ArcticKnight]

I think women should be encouraged to go topless in public. But that could just be because I like seeing women's breasts in all of their shapes and sizes -- they could even be cube shaped and I'd still like them.