Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

[Guojing]

When it was written scripture wasn't completed. Paul was writing to people in that context.

So as I said, Paul was telling them in 1 Corinthians 13:8, all these will eventually cease, once scripture is completed.

He is telling them what will happen in the future

 

[topher694]

So as I said, Paul was telling them in 1 Corinthians 13:8, all these will eventually cease, once scripture is completed.

He is telling them what will happen in the future

Ok, and that has nothing to do with Deut 18:22, which is what the conversation was about, until you hijacked it.

 

[Guojing]

Ok, and that has nothing to do with Deut 18:22, which is what the conversation was about, until you hijacked it.

Well your buddy was making a point to me about why Paul made no mention of Deut 18:22, and I answered it, but perhaps not to your satisfaction, as expected. =)

 

[topher694]

Well your buddy was making a point to me about why Paul made no mention of Deut 18:22, and I answered it, but perhaps not to your satisfaction, as expected. =)

And as I said this makes zero sense. You've already said the 1 Cor 13:8 was about the future, so when Paul was writing prophecy hadn't ceased so there would be zero reason for him not to reference Deut 18:22 **IF** it was critical to understanding prophecy, yet he didn't. 1 Cor 13:8 does nothing to disprove that regardless of if prophecy ceased or not. It was a meaningless reference that changed the direction of the conversation for no good reason.

 

[Guojing]

And as I said this makes zero sense. You've already said the 1 Cor 13:8 was about the future, so when Paul was writing prophecy hadn't ceased so there would be zero reason for him not to reference Deut 18:22 **IF** it was critical to understanding prophecy, yet he didn't. 1 Cor 13:8 does nothing to disprove that regardless of if prophecy ceased or not. It was a meaningless reference that changed the direction of the conversation for no good reason.

You are asking me a question about why Paul did not write/do something.

There could be many different reasons why Paul chose not to mention Deut 18:22, and I offered the reason I believe in, since I cannot read the mind of others.

Now, if you don't want to accept that reason for whatever reasons, I am fine. We can agree to disagree.

 

[topher694]

You are asking me a question about why Paul did not write/do something.

There could be many different reasons why Paul chose not to mention Deut 18:22, and I offered the reason I believe in, since I cannot read the mind of others.

Now, if you don't want to accept that reason for whatever reasons, I am fine. We can agree to disagree.

Agree to disagree? My point is you did not give a reason. It was completely arbitrary and senseless. Usually when I disagree with someone I understand the argument, but reject it. In this case there is nothing of substance to accept or reject.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The bible is but one source for verification of prophecy, but given that most prophecy has little or no theological reference, its relevance is very limited.

My experience of hearing God speak goes back to the 1960s when he first spoke to me, and since that time, the majority of visions, prophetic or rhema words I have delivered or received, could never be verified by scripture.

These words were related mostly to the personal lives of people or myself and come as guidance in life, and could only be verified by whether they came to pass or not. But even then the word might also be conditional on the faithful participation of the recipient.

Sure, and I agree. I was thinking more of prophecy as revelation, not as predictions or individual guidance. An example may help.

Some years ago, the Lord asked me a question: "How were you saved". I replied, "By grace." The Lord then said, "What saves you today?" "Grace." was my reply. "And what will save you tomorrow?" Ah. Grace again. Salvation is not only a one off experience. That gets us born again and right with God. There is a progressive aspect, the salvation of the soul. I received that word as revelation from the Lord. It also matches God's word.

I've had flashing thoughts come into my mind that seemed to be from God. When I've tested the thought against God's word, it was not confirmed so I ignored it.

The primary role of the prophet is to receive revelation from God. One day that will no longer be required. I do not believe that the church is so advanced that prophecy is unnecessary. I wish it was.

 

[Guojing]

The primary role of the prophet is to receive revelation from God. One day that will no longer be required. I do not believe that the church is so advanced that prophecy is unnecessary. I wish it was.

What do you think of those prophecies like "Trump would be reelected, or that the Covid-19 is finished, aka Kenneth Copeland"?

Were those necessary?

 

[Francis Drake]

There is no need for him to bring it up, other than what Maria already stated, in 1 Corinthians, he already stated prophecies, word of knowledge, etc, will eventually cease. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

Like many, you completely abuse the meaning of that verse to suit your cessationism, and if you insist that prophecy has ceased, then knowledge itself must also have ceased, for that is what Paul clearly states.

You should also know there is absolutely nothing in that whole chapter indicating that "the perfect" has anything whatsoever to do with completing the canon of scripture.
1Cor13v8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.

Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]​

Paul is simply referring to the consummation of the age, the return of Christ on earth as opposed to hidden in heaven.
All prophetic events culminate with Christ's reign on earth.

 

[Francis Drake]

Sure, and I agree. I was thinking more of prophecy as revelation, not as predictions or individual guidance. An example may help.

Some years ago, the Lord asked me a question: "How were you saved". I replied, "By grace." The Lord then said, "What saves you today?" "Grace." was my reply. "And what will save you tomorrow?" Ah. Grace again. Salvation is not only a one off experience. That gets us born again and right with God. There is a progressive aspect, the salvation of the soul. I received that word as revelation from the Lord. It also matches God's word.

I've had flashing thoughts come into my mind that seemed to be from God. When I've tested the thought against God's word, it was not confirmed so I ignored it.

The primary role of the prophet is to receive revelation from God. One day that will no longer be required. I do not believe that the church is so advanced that prophecy is unnecessary. I wish it was.

All of the above, including countless revelations over the years that vividly expound fact checkable scriptural truth.

Yet beside all that, a continuous stream of wisdom from my Heavenly dad who loves to direct my path in this life.

I recall a time the Lord led me to a factory which was selling a piece of machinery. It was a powder coating paint spray plant including a 40 ft long conveyor oven. We were at that time sub contracting out all our paintwork, but the magnitude of this project was completely beyond my current comprehension.

Even if it was the right decision, I was completely clueless on how to dismantle shift it across the country to rebuild it in my factory.

As I stood there gazing at this machinery, I suddenly felt a breath down my collar, and heard these words, "You are standing in the way of MY business again!"

The Lord certainly has a sense of humour. It was His business, he had led me every step of the way by dreams visions and words of knowledge, either directly to me or via others.

My point being that the never ending argument that all prophecy should be confirmed by scripture, has completely stifled one of the most exciting aspects of the spiritual gifts, that of God's desire to be fully involved in the lives of his children.

 

[Aussie Pete]

All of the above, including countless revelations over the years that vividly expound fact checkable scriptural truth.

Yet beside all that, a continuous stream of wisdom from my Heavenly dad who loves to direct my path in this life.

I recall a time the Lord led me to a factory which was selling a piece of machinery. It was a powder coating paint spray plant including a 40 ft long conveyor oven. We were at that time sub contracting out all our paintwork, but the magnitude of this project was completely beyond my current comprehension.

Even if it was the right decision, I was completely clueless on how to dismantle shift it across the country to rebuild it in my factory.

As I stood there gazing at this machinery, I suddenly felt a breath down my collar, and heard these words, "You are standing in the way of MY business again!"

The Lord certainly has a sense of humour. It was His business, he had led me every step of the way by dreams visions and words of knowledge, either directly to me or via others.

My point being that the never ending argument that all prophecy should be confirmed by scripture, has completely stifled one of the most exciting aspects of the spiritual gifts, that of God's desire to be fully involved in the lives of his children.

Fair enough. I do agree that a great deal of day to day life cannot be proven by God's word. Likewise major decisions such as your business. Christians would avoid a great deal of grief is they learned to discern the voice of God in the day to day things.

 

[Guojing]

Like many, you completely abuse the meaning of that verse to suit your cessationism, and if you insist that prophecy has ceased, then knowledge itself must also have ceased, for that is what Paul clearly states.

You should also know there is absolutely nothing in that whole chapter indicating that "the perfect" has anything whatsoever to do with completing the canon of scripture.
1Cor13v8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.

Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]​

Paul is simply referring to the consummation of the age, the return of Christ on earth as opposed to hidden in heaven.
All prophetic events culminate with Christ's reign on earth.

Some people believe the perfect refers to the 2nd coming and there are others who believe it refers to the completion Of scriptures.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Some people believe the perfect refers to the 2nd coming and there are others who believe it refers to the completion Of scriptures.

A couple of videos on the 2nd coming interpretation (these videos defend continuationism):

Tongues will Cease | 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Does This Verse Teach Cessationism? And a Bit On Bethel. 1 Cor 13:10-12

 

[Francis Drake]

Some people believe the perfect refers to the 2nd coming and there are others who believe it refers to the completion Of scriptures.

It is interesting that both Paul and Peter talk of events that will happen after their departure, yet neither of them use that opportunity to alert the saints that the gifts will cease.
If anything, their main concern is false teachers, not false prophets.

Here's Peter talking about his departure.

2Peter1v14knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.​

The context reveals no thought to the cessation of the gifts, despite the magnitude of such an event for the church.

And here's Paul talking about his departure.

Acts20v 29For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.​

Again the context reveals no word about the cessation of the gifts.

The claim that the gifts ceased with the completion of the scriptures, or the death of the apostles etc. is a doctrine of demons, designed to emasculate the church and render it powerless.

 

[Guojing]

A couple of videos on the 2nd coming interpretation (these videos defend continuationism):

Tongues will Cease | 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Does This Verse Teach Cessationism? And a Bit On Bethel. 1 Cor 13:10-12

Generally, these opposing views won't converge. so it is really up to the individual Christian which side he wants to stand on.

If you ask me, speaking in tongues, those gibberish kind, has a useful placebo effect on those who believe it continues. To that extent, it is helpful.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

If you ask me, speaking in tongues, those gibberish kind, has a useful placebo effect on those who believe it continues. To that extent, it is helpful.

What about testimonies of xenoglossy?

 

[Guojing]

What about testimonies of xenoglossy?

As I said, if you speak in those kind of "tongues", and later you testify that you felt a peace in your heart etc, that action has a useful placebo effect.

What other kinds of testimonies are you referring to?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

As I said, if you speak in those kind of "tongues", and later you testify that you felt a peace in your heart etc, that action has a useful placebo effect.

What other kinds of testimonies are you referring to?

I said xenoglossy, not glossolalia. For example, these testimonies: Tongues for unbelievers - Amazing Testimony

 

[Guojing]

I said xenoglossy, not glossolalia. For example, these testimonies: Tongues for unbelievers - Amazing Testimony

Oh you are talking about actual foreign languages.

That will be a miracle by God for sure. I will not call that a "sign". All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Oh you are talking about actual foreign languages.

That will be a miracle by God for sure. I will not call that a "sign". All signs are miracles but not all miracles are signs.

What is your definition of "sign"?