Should we tweak the Bible to fit a health message?

[k4c]

Can anyone say, with a clear conscience, that the wine in these verses is unfermented?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

Titus 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?

Romans 14:21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your weaker brother to fall.

Are we training up weaker brothers and sisters when we teach them that drinking wine is sinful?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

While I believe that we are not called to abstinance, in today's understanding of Christian behaviour, to openly drink would be a stumbling block to those we are trying to reach, especially our protestant brethren.

We need not spend our time educating them on this issue when much weightier matters are needed to be understood.

 

[k4c]

While I believe that we are not called to abstinance, in today's understanding of Christian behaviour, to openly drink would be a stumbling block to those we are trying to reach, especially our protestant brethren.

We need not spend our time educating them on this issue when much weightier matters are needed to be understood.

I agree with your comment regarding our use of fermented drink. But I believe we need to spend time on correcting SDA leaders in this matter. Everytime I hear a leader teach wine use is sinful it hardens my heart to the fact that this leader is twisting truth to fit an agenda. This not only effects my commitment to a church that promotes this it also effects others from joining the church when they know the truth.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree with your comment regarding our use of fermented drink. But I believe we need to spend time on correcting SDA leaders in this matter. Everytime I hear a leader teach wine use is sinful it hardens my heart to the fact that this leader is twisting truth to fit an agenda. This not only effects my commitment to a church that promotes this it also effects others from joining the church when they know the truth.

I feel the same about those in the church who want to make diet a salvational issue. And will even try to use scripture to back it up. But don't try and tell them that Jesus ate fish and lamb...

 

[k4c]

I feel the same about those in the church who want to make diet a salvational issue. And will even try to use scripture to back it up. But don't try and tell them that Jesus ate fish and lamb...

I totally agree...

I visited a Bible worker school last week and sat in one of the classes. The instructor started talking about how we shouldn't clap for people. He even went as far as to say we should be be careful when thank people because they are only doing what is required. I believe this kind of teaching breeds an oppressive spirit within the church.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I totally agree...

I visited a Bible worker school last week and sat in one of the classes. The instructor started talking about how we shouldn't clap for people. He even went as far as to say we should be be careful when thank people because they are only doing what is required. I believe this kind of teaching breeds an oppressive spirit within the church.

It dawned on me last night during our Bible study that the new covenant is following exactly the old. Check this out....

Moses, who was a type of Christ, instructed and reproofed his people...
Jesus did the same.

After Moses died, the Israelites were subject to persecution from the heathen nations...
After Christ died, the church suffered persecution from the Romans as well as apostate judaism.

Satan began his campaign to destroy the Israelites from outside forces....
Satan began to destroy the Christian church from outside forces.

Balak, on the advice of Balaam, starts to corrupt God's people by mixing paganism into their worship...
Constantine starts to corrupt Christianity by mixing paganism with their worship.

God's prophets and messengers are persecuted and killed by succeedingly wicked Israelite Kings...
God's remnant people are persecuted and killed by succeedingly wicked Popes.

God has a message of warning for the coming advent of His Son through Daniel and Nehemiah...
God has a message of warning for the coming second advent of His Son through the Millerites and the Seventh Day Adventists.

In their quest to be ready for the Messiah, the Jews became stiffnecked and a nation of rule followers, instead of preparing their hearts....
In their quest to be ready for the Messiah, the Adventists have become stiffnecked and a people of rules, instead of preparing their hearts and seeing God's character for what it truly is.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Can anyone say, with a clear conscience, that the wine in these verses is unfermented?

It's an interesting question. How does one become addicted to grape juice?

BFA

 

[OldStudent]

What are the benefits of alcohol? At best it is a drug. There are times when certain drugs have a place and are beneficial. We use asprin and Tylenol at times. Even when those are used it is because something isn't right. We then need to figure out what went wrong and fix or avoid what brought us to need them. They do not have the addictive or mind blunting potential alcohol does.

Alcohol is generally used as a psychotropic drug. It would seem wise that it be used under the guidance and oversight of trusted counselors who will help resolve whatever problem that is making its use attractive.

Yes, wine was in common use in the time of the apostles. And yes Jesus may well have used some - especially in Passover commemoration. They would not have used it for a buzz. To use it to the point of "relaxation" would be to use it to a point that would dull their mind to the mission and war they had committed to. As has been said in the context of "winning" a woman: "Candy's dandy but liquer's quicker." Hmmm.

It may also be an interesting study to learn what the quality of wine was that would be found in common use among the general populous of the apostles time. Was it the 20 to 40 proof common today? They did not have access to refrigeration and preservation as we do today. There is really no excuse for us to be making excuses for use of a risky substance.

In the passages quoted it seems a given that wine would be in use at some level but note that a call for wisdom and warning are also embedded in the passages.

We as people who are living in the "Day of Atonement" would do well to be even more resistant to the use of any drug that has any mind altering, blunting, or blurring tendencies. The stakes are just too high.

 

[k4c]

What are the benefits of alcohol? At best it is a drug. There are times when certain drugs have a place and are beneficial. We use asprin and Tylenol at times. Even when those are used it is because something isn't right. We then need to figure out what went wrong and fix or avoid what brought us to need them. They do not have the addictive or mind blunting potential alcohol does.

Alcohol is generally used as a psychotropic drug. It would seem wise that it be used under the guidance and oversight of trusted counselors who will help resolve whatever problem that is making its use attractive.

Yes, wine was in common use in the time of the apostles. And yes Jesus may well have used some - especially in Passover commemoration. They would not have used it for a buzz. To use it to the point of "relaxation" would be to use it to a point that would dull their mind to the mission and war they had committed to. As has been said in the context of "winning" a woman: "Candy's dandy but liquer's quicker." Hmmm.

It may also be an interesting study to learn what the quality of wine was that would be found in common use among the general populous of the apostles time. Was it the 20 to 40 proof common today? They did not have access to refrigeration and preservation as we do today. There is really no excuse for us to be making excuses for use of a risky substance.

In the passages quoted it seems a given that wine would be in use at some level but note that a call for wisdom and warning are also embedded in the passages.

We as people who are living in the "Day of Atonement" would do well to be even more resistant to the use of any drug that has any mind altering, blunting, or blurring tendencies. The stakes are just too high.

The Bible speaks clearly against drunkeness but not against wine uses. Also, just as you stated, it comes with caution with wine use. As far as alcohol proof, the Bible does speak of wine and strong drink.

The funny thing is that in all this I don't even drink but it bothers me that people will wrongly tweak the Bible to fit an agenda even if the agenda has good intentions.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What are the benefits of alcohol?

Give strong drink to him who is perishing,And wine to him whose life is bitter. Proverbs 21:6

Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works. Ecclesiastes 9:7

BFA

 

[k4c]

It dawned on me last night during our Bible study that the new covenant is following exactly the old. Check this out....

Moses, who was a type of Christ, instructed and reproofed his people...
Jesus did the same.

After Moses died, the Israelites were subject to persecution from the heathen nations...
After Christ died, the church suffered persecution from the Romans as well as apostate judaism.

Satan began his campaign to destroy the Israelites from outside forces....
Satan began to destroy the Christian church from outside forces.

Balak, on the advice of Balaam, starts to corrupt God's people by mixing paganism into their worship...
Constantine starts to corrupt Christianity by mixing paganism with their worship.

God's prophets and messengers are persecuted and killed by succeedingly wicked Israelite Kings...
God's remnant people are persecuted and killed by succeedingly wicked Popes.

God has a message of warning for the coming advent of His Son through Daniel and Nehemiah...
God has a message of warning for the coming second advent of His Son through the Millerites and the Seventh Day Adventists.

In their quest to be ready for the Messiah, the Jews became stiffnecked and a nation of rule followers, instead of preparing their hearts....
In their quest to be ready for the Messiah, the Adventists have become stiffnecked and a people of rules, instead of preparing their hearts and seeing God's character for what it truly is.

Interesting...

What are your thoughts on clapping?

 

[k4c]

It's an interesting question. How does one become addicted to grape juice?

BFA

Now that's what I'm talking about...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Interesting...

What are your thoughts on clapping?

Here is one of those slippery slopes...

While I feel that clapping is ok to encourage, eg: my wife and I went to a piano/voice recital yesterday at a seniors care home. The young people performing were super nervous but overcame their fear and did their piece to the best of their ability. We clapped enthusiastically to help encourage them.

My problem with clapping/cheering is when I'm listening to a Christian artist playing live and at the end of the song, the crowd goes wild with cheering and clapping...

Two different situations, I feel the former is appropriate as it is done in love. The latter, however is a form of worshipping the artist.

I really commend musicians that instruct the audience to offer praise to God for their talent than to clap... that shows me a humble spirit.

 

[k4c]

Here is one of those slippery slopes...

While I feel that clapping is ok to encourage, eg: my wife and I went to a piano/voice recital yesterday at a seniors care home. The young people performing were super nervous but overcame their fear and did their piece to the best of their ability. We clapped enthusiastically to help encourage them.

My problem with clapping/cheering is when I'm listening to a Christian artist playing live and at the end of the song, the crowd goes wild with cheering and clapping...

Two different situations, I feel the former is appropriate as it is done in love. The latter, however is a form of worshipping the artist.

I really commend musicians that instruct the audience to offer praise to God for their talent than to clap... that shows me a humble spirit.

I believe worship is an attitude of the heart. We can clap and even give a standing ovation to encourage without any intent of worship. I believe we put ourselves in the seat as judge when we try to determine another persons heart as to whether we clap or not. I say clap you heart out for people and encourage to the max and let God deal with the heart issues of others.

 

[OntheDL]

I think if we want to justify our beliefs, we can most certainly find passage(s) to support them.

However the bible is to be understood as whole through ideas and experience.

This particular brand of health message was given to the remnant of the 1844 movement. It wasn't meant for the believers of all ages.

So Paul may not have advocated for total abstinence for the brand new believers, but the scriptures have provided enough warnings regarding the danger of the nature of alcohol, not just over drinking.

The OT typical Day of Atonement was only fast day of the biblical calendar. So for those who believe in and practice the message of the antitypical Day of Atonement, it is necessary to be sober and vigilant, guard the avenues to the soul and guard against substance that influences the mind. For solemn days of judgment is at hand.

And by the same token, yes Jesus ate meat. But were the fish and meat then the same as today's: full of mercury, antibiotics or hormones, fed with unnatural diet and came off of assembly lines?

The health message isn't advocated as requirement of salvation. But those who are ready and looking to the redemption and the translation adhere and practice the health message.

 

[k4c]

I think if we want to justify our beliefs, we can most certainly find passage(s) to support them.

However the bible is to be understood as whole through ideas and experience.

This particular brand of health message was given to the remnant of the 1844 movement. It wasn't meant for the believers of all ages.

So Paul may not have advocated for total abstinence for the brand new believers, but the scriptures have provided enough warnings regarding the danger of the nature of alcohol, not just over drinking.

The OT typical Day of Atonement was only fast day of the biblical calendar. So for those who believe in and practice the message of the antitypical Day of Atonement, it is necessary to be sober and vigilant, guard the avenues to the soul and guard against substance that influences the mind. For solemn days of judgment is at hand.

And by the same token, yes Jesus ate meat. But were the fish and meat then the same as today's: full of mercury, antibiotics or hormones, fed with unnatural diet and came off of assembly lines?

The health message isn't advocated as requirement of salvation. But those who are ready and looking to the redemption and the translation adhere and practice the health message.

The problem is when we tweak the Bible to fit a certain doctrine such as when we call fermented wine grape juice when the context clearly states fermented. The health message must agree with scripture, not tweak it. The health message can include wine, not to excess, and organic meat because the Bible allows for it. Anything less or more falls outside of Scripture.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I believe we put ourselves in the seat as judge when we try to determine another persons heart as to whether we clap or not. I say clap you heart out for people and encourage to the max and let God deal with the heart issues of others.

Very, very true. Well said.

BFA

 

[Princessdi]

Ok guys, I am surprised that none of you even considered the Bible text regarding clapping. this is the area where I believe SDAs as the weakest. We do not realize, neither do we want to, the power of praise and worship to God. For far too many of us "worship" begins and ends with emphasizing the "day" on which we worship. After that, it's all about following the bulletin. LOL!!! Oh yeah, that text is from Psalm......as with many others regarding praise and worship
;


Psalm 47:1 (Whole Chapter)
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.

 

[Princessdi]

Amen!!! We forget that God can make those things meant for evil work for His good. So, even a song rendered by someone with the wrong motives, can touch your heart, where you are, with whatever encouragement you needed. His blesseing for us never dependent upon another. "What God has for me, it is for me".

I believe worship is an attitude of the heart. We can clap and even give a standing ovation to encourage without any intent of worship. I believe we put ourselves in the seat as judge when we try to determine another persons heart as to whether we clap or not. I say clap you heart out for people and encourage to the max and let God deal with the heart issues of others.

 

[Mankin]

Can anyone say, with a clear conscience, that the wine in these verses is unfermented?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

Titus 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?

Romans 14:21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your weaker brother to fall.

Are we training up weaker brothers and sisters when we teach them that drinking wine is sinful?

Nope you can't. It's simply easier for the church to say, "Don't drink it" then "Well it's not wrong persay but getting drunk is wrong." That being said, it also irves me whenever a preacher makes a massive deal about diet. I have heard a few even proclaim that diet plays a direct role in salvation, because clearly Jesus is going to search your stomach before He lets you into heaven.

In order to make it such an issue, they basically have to ignore or twist all the other Scriptures that mention how what you eat isn't that important.

The whole amen versus clapping issue never made sense to me. They're both saying the same exact thing, "Good job, we agree with you."