Should we just forget about it?

[seajoy]

ang - i don't think filo's and CJ's posts mean what you think they do.....i didn't get that from those posts, and neither did Rev....

i agree to an extent with everybody that's posted here - we need to make sure that the correct information is provided to newcomers to this (main) forum, and we should probably just completely ignore those that we have butted heads with continually.....there comes a point in time when you have said your piece often enough and they have called you fool often enough, that you need to leave them to their own (detrimental) devices....unfortunately.

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but I'm pretty good at reading what people are trying to infer. Too much so for my own good, many times.

What I hear about the ELCA, I need to disregard, as I'm not willing to give out private information on a forum. So it's really my own fault for even bringing this up.

Let's just stamp this with a 'nevermind.'

 

[Zecryphon]

The newcomer is vitally important. However, they need to be steered out of TCL into this forum if possible.

When you say "newcomer", do you mean a new Lutheran or a visiting guest from another denomination. I don't think we can bring the latter in here as this forum is described as being for the more conservative branches of Lutheranism.

 

[alexnbethmom]

When you say "newcomer", do you mean a new Lutheran or a visiting guest from another denomination. I don't think we can bring the latter in here as this forum is described as being for the more conservative branches of Lutheranism.

zec - i think he meant newcomer as in "new Lutheran"....

 

[seajoy]

People who don't gather as many facts available as possible set themselves up to be misled, IMO. Gossip rarely benefits anyone as Scripture tells us and as Filo has already shown, no one likes to be on the wrong side of it. How quickly many of us forget what that feels like and TCL is certainly not immune to helping create those bad feelings.

I'm very sorry I brought this whole thing up. I promise, to the best of my ability, never to bring up what I perceive as problems in the ELCA again.

I apologize - I don't know what more to do than to say I'm sorry.

 

[DaRev]

zec - i think he meant newcomer as in "new Lutheran"....

Actually, I meant someone (anyone) who comes to TCL to ask questions about what we hold, teach and confess. Many times they will be answered by an ELCA member who gives them incorrect information. Rather than engage the ELCA member (which seems to do nothing but create havoc), we simply address the questioner directly with the correct information. And, we can most certainly invite someone here to discuss confessional Lutheranism.

 

[Studeclunker]

Actually, I meant someone (anyone) who comes to TCL to ask questions about what we hold, teach and confess. Many times they will be answered by an ELCA member who gives them incorrect information. Rather than engage the ELCA member (which seems to do nothing but create havoc), we simply address the questioner directly with the correct information. And, we can most certainly invite someone here to discuss confessional Lutheranism.

Exac-tic-ally!

Sis, I think Filo's needle was aimed at my post, not yours. He's basically saying we can't bar-b-q the heretics without first giving them a chance (darn, no BBQ ). All the same, my point is more what the Revrand was saying above. I believe it's time to stop responding, explaining, or correcting these people. Just dismiss them as lost and irrelevant.

Filo, had it been me, I would have sought you out and had a word. Well, maybe quite a few words. I kinda have a touch of a rep in that area. It really irritates me that people think in the behind-the-back mode so often. In fact, I've been known to seek out back biters like that and have a word or two.

All the same, it's just a bit late for the 'best possible spin' thing. Those people have demonstrated by their words and deeds that they mean the worst possible thing. They have no desire whatever to give up their errors, and intend to go on in the same heterodox vein. It's easy to find a 'Gentle Luther good and kind' quote in numerous places. However, if one looks at Luther's overall works, he says something quite different about people like the modern liberals. Yes... indeed, give people time to explain a misunderstanding. However, when it is patently crystal clear what the Heretics are promoting, the time for gloves is past. These people have had thirty years (and more) to mend their ways. HOW MUCH LONGER, FOLKS? How many more good Christian people are going to be led to the smooth, wide road to damnation before the true Church finally stands up and says no more?

As to steering outsiders into here, what better place to get the proper answers than here? We just need to be a touch more... gentle with the Protestants. They honestly just don't get it.

Seajoy, there's nothing for you to apologize for. You voiced a valid concern.

 

[porterross]

I'm very sorry I brought this whole thing up. I promise, to the best of my ability, never to bring up what I perceive as problems in the ELCA again.

I apologize - I don't know what more to do than to say I'm sorry.

C'mon, Ang. I hope you know I wasn't specifically targeting this thread. Please don't let someone else's assumptions apply meanings I never intended.

I was in sympathy with Filo's experience and expressing my sadness at the pain any manner of gossip creates, especially when people embellish the facts or twist what others say to stir up trouble. That seems to happen too often in the shared TCL area.

My post certainly wasn't meant to cause you to question your problems with liberals. I'm sorry you were made to think that it had. That's another irritating aspect of TCL and many other forums, though, unfortunately.

 

[seajoy]

No one's assumptions got me to thinking what I was thinking. I assume quite well on my own, thanks.

I think my foot pain has moved to my brain. I'm pretty much all better tonight though. Sorry about my going nutty earlier today.

 

[filosofer]

I do not know the name of the church. I'm taking my pastor's word for it on what the bulletin said. He read it, as the person from our congregation showed it to him. I get very nervous thinking about involving others in my crazy forum stuff. Paranoid is a good word for it.

Anyway - it probably wasn't worth my effort to bring it up. It was just frustrating to hear about, especially when we keep hearing that all is well with the ELCA teaching the Confessions.

That is certainly awful.....especially knowing you. I am shocked, actually.

I tend to take things very much to heart. So, I'm feeling that you think this didn't really happen in the bulletin. That it never said what my pastor told me. I don't know what else to think by your telling the terrible story that happened to you.

Perhaps we just shouldn't talk about this stuff anymore. I certainly don't have the answers in all this. It just pains me to watch.

Please don’t misunderstand why I wrote what I did. I am not questioning what your pastor said about the bulletin. My point is that even within a church body, Biblical practice of dealing with something like this is not followed. How much more so across denominational lines.

As I ponder this, the implications are much broader for us to consider. I think there are several aspects of this that I want to address (to everyone including me, not seajoy).

1. What are the limits of our concern? Are we given any authority in addressing the original concern? Although I am a national leader of a Lutheran church body and visit ELCA congregations regularly, I do not address every variation and deviation that takes place in the ELCA. I am not in any position or authority to do that. Nor is anyone in this sub forum. Is the internet the proper place to address these individual concerns?

2. How does putting this into a forum like this address the issue? Does it help the congregation and members involved? Does it make us look better, more Lutheran, more confessional? I think the use of internet has unintentionally given us the appearance of being judge and jury, when we are not given enough information (regardless of authority to do so, see #1).

3. The real issue is not whether the congregation had that statement in the bulletin. In fact, the congregation is being much more consistent than most ELCA congregations by stating it that way. Thus, what we can do is address what the ELCA has publicly stated on various topics. Consider the following official ELCA positions:


FOA (Formula of Agreement 1997) with RCA, PCUSA, and UCC establishing Full communion fellowship.

JDDJ (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification) which the LWF (of which ELCA is part) signed with the Roman Catholic Church in 1998. The document essentially gave up the Reformation doctrine of justification. Check out what Cardinal Ratzinger noted about it: “The RCC has never changed its teaching on justification.” So who changed to accommodate this statement? Look at the headings of two articles to see the subtle but significant changes:

4.2 Justification as Forgiveness of Sins and Making Righteous

vs. declaring righteous​

4.3 Justification by Faith and through Grace

vs. justification by grace through faith; yes, prepositions do make a difference​

CCM (Call to Common Mission 1999/2000) which the ELCA signed with the Episcopal Church establishing full communion fellowship and the recognition of apostolic succession.

So, the problem really is the entire public approach and stance of the ELCA, not an individual congregation. Justification, Lord’s Supper, and Pastoral Ministry are changed by the ELCA to accommodate agreement with church bodies that have significantly different understandings of each.

So what’s next? I don’t have definitive answers for that, and I don’t pretend to have them. Here are a few questions that help me (but I am not completely consistent in this):

• Have I been called to address a specific congregational issue. If you read my history over the past 9+ years on this board, I try to maintain that caution in my responses.
• What am I trying to prove, demonstrate, illustrate by my comments?
• Is this for the benefit of the board and its members? or me?
• Am I writing out of anger? If I detect anger in myself, I will wait at least 24 hours, then write out the response in a word processor to rearrange my thoughts (as I did for this post).
• Have I been accurate in what I present about the other person? In other words, if that person read my statement, would that person agree that I have summarized it correctly? Notice, at this point I am not concerned with whether I agree or disagree with that person, only that I have accurately reflected what the person is stating.
• Do I know when to stop? This has to be answered not because of anger, but because I have stated the issues and the disagreements.
• Have I attacked a person or the issue? If it is the person, then I need to apologize and refrain from any further discussion of this. Even if the person attacks me, what good is my self-defense in the internet forum?
• Am I responding like I would want the other person to respond to me?

Enough said…

 

[seajoy]

Not sure why, filo.....but I feel better after what you have stated.

I think because you were direct with your last post. When given the chance, I will see what I want to see into most things, and I normally beat myself up a lot.

You guys might be thinking, huh? But I am good friends with Radman and his wife. One of the biggest reasons is that one never has to guess what he means or what he is thinking.

Filo - what you said makes sense, and I've been looking at my involvement a lot on this forum over the past few months. I really don't know where I fit, or what my role should be.....but something doesn't feel right anymore. Time for prayer and study of God's word.

Thanks for what you said.

 

[Studeclunker]

Filo, just out of curiosity, what denomination do you belong to? The majority of your post makes perfect sense. However, this is the path our denominations have been taking for almost a hundred years. The philosophy you profess has done nothing except allow the Liberals to surreptitiously undermine most of the major denominations. LCMS dealt with the Semin-ex group much the same way. Yet that leaven is very much alive in LCMS. Their loving, careful approach didn't work. In fact, the Synod is still struggling with that group. It looks like the previous president (praise God he's out) may have been a closet member.

Yet, I also wonder if this is an example of, "Were not these times cut short, even the elect would be deceived, were that possible."

Yes, Filo, we need to be careful before burning people (figuratively speaking) at the stake. However, this lovey-dovey approach is not working. It's time the Church called a spade a spade and started doing what they were called to do two thousand years ago and separate these liars from amoungst them, publicly denounce them, and have nothing whatever to do with them. That would indeed include this forum as it is a form of social networking. We should not be associating with this kind of liar. The Apostle Paul says, "Have nothing to do with these people..."

If you are ELCA Filo, I would strongly advise you to consider that as a member of their hierarchy, you share in the sin of the rest of it. Is your soul worth a retirement account?

Is this venue a proper place to deal with these issues? Most certainly. As is any social network.

The issue isn't so much what good we are doing here or not. The problem has been allowed to grow by permissive and passive behaviour for far too long. It's long past time for the Church (what remains of it) to take a stand against these incursions against it's very foundations. If we continue second-guessing ourselves, it won't be long before the liberals have destroyed what little is left.

Is this venue a proper place to deal with these issues? Most certainly.
Should we limit the dealing of these issues to this venue? Most certainly NOT!
How much longer will we, as conservative Christians contunue in retreat? How much longer will we run from the Liberals and allow them to overrun the various denominations?

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[seajoy]

Filo is TAALC.

And I like your on fire attitude, too, Stude. Good grief - I'm having trouble picking a team.

 

[DaRev]

Filo, just out of curiosity, what denomination do you belong to?

I'm not Filo, but...

He is AALC.

 

[filosofer]

Filo, just out of curiosity, what denomination do you belong to? The majority of your post makes perfect sense. However, this is the path our denominations have been taking for almost a hundred years. The philosophy you profess has done nothing except allow the Liberals to surreptitiously undermine most of the major denominations. LCMS dealt with the Semin-ex group much the same way. Yet that leaven is very much alive in LCMS. Their loving, careful approach didn't work. In fact, the Synod is still struggling with that group. It looks like the previous president (praise God he's out) may have been a closet member.

Whoa! I was not addressing issues within a church body. In my long post I wrote about two situations: 1) inter church body interference and 2) internet approaches, which are not church body issues. For issues within a church body, there are still appropriate ways to handle issues; in my experience over the past 40 years, I haven't often seen the Biblical pattern followed.

For the AALC we are looking a long term preventive solutions that do not resort to bullying or attacks after the fact. Will it work? From my experience so far, it is better than any thing else I have seen. But realistically only time will tell. I will let each church body speak for itself in how they handle this. I do not interfere with ELCA nor do I with LCMS.

(BTW, My example early in this thread was when I was LCMS, and demonstrated that some who want to "corral the fences" with the Law, do not have a good track record on Biblical relationships. If you think otherwise, wait for the circle to get just a little smaller, so that you don't fit into it, and see how that works. Just for the record, I did not leave LCMS because my confessional stance was lacking.)

 

[filosofer]

Yes, Filo, we need to be careful before burning people (figuratively speaking) at the stake. However, this lovey-dovey approach is not working. It's time the Church called a spade a spade and started doing what they were called to do two thousand years ago and separate these liars from amoungst them, publicly denounce them, and have nothing whatever to do with them. That would indeed include this forum as it is a form of social networking. We should not be associating with this kind of liar. The Apostle Paul says, "Have nothing to do with these people..."

Wow, what can I say? Since when did I say "lovey-dovey" or even intimate that such was the approach I advocated? Since when haven't I called a spade a spade? You have no clue. Because I do not engage every discussion here nor engage a discussion like you think I should has no bearing on how I deal with them in the church.

If you are ELCA Filo, I would strongly advise you to consider that as a member of their hierarchy, you share in the sin of the rest of it. Is your soul worth a retirement account?

Would it have been a problem if you had waited to find our where I stood before counseling on these issues?.

Is this venue a proper place to deal with these issues? Most certainly. As is any social network.

The issue isn't so much what good we are doing here or not. The problem has been allowed to grow by permissive and passive behaviour for far too long. It's long past time for the Church (what remains of it) to take a stand against these incursions against it's very foundations. If we continue second-guessing ourselves, it won't be long before the liberals have destroyed what little is left.

Is this venue a proper place to deal with these issues? Most certainly.

Should we limit the dealing of these issues to this venue? Most certainly NOT!

How much longer will we, as conservative Christians contunue in retreat?

How much longer will we run from the Liberals and allow them to overrun the various denominations?

So, how have I retreated? I am not on this board long enough to engage very long because of my life. I enter the discussions I find interesting or pertinent. But I do really have a life outside this forum. Currently I have been home for four weeks... that's the longest I have been home in almost four years. And when I travel I deal everyday with church conflict, pastoral issues, and encouraging and teaching people to stand firm on the Scriptures.

When I visit ELCA churches and representatives from other church bodies do as well (LCMC, NALC, ALFC, LCMS, WELS), guess which representative is the only one to bring a Bible and teach from it so that the congregation can determine what Scripture says? Not LCMS or WELS or LCMC or NALC or AFLC. That's right, I am the only one. If people want to be a part of our church body and I fail to bring the Bible and teach from it, then what have I told/demonstrated about our own church body?

So, please hold this kind of criticism for someone doesn't give a rip or who doesn't live it every day.

 

[seajoy]

Just to make myself clear - I liked Stude's on-fire attitude for standing up to the truth, but I did not care for the roasting of filo. I have been a part of filo's bible studies in person, and he knows of what he speaks and is a faithful pastor to be sure.

 

[filosofer]

Thanks, seajoy. It doesn’t seem like it has been four years since we met in St. Louis. Wow, time flies.

 

[seajoy]

Thanks, seajoy. It doesn’t seem like it has been four years since we met in St. Louis. Wow, time flies.

No kidding! When's the next bible study?

 

[Studeclunker]

On fire attitude, eh sis? Yeah, well... usually when my hair goes aflame I put my foot in it. This is a perfect example. My apologies Filo, I wasn't addressing you in particular. Perhaps your earlier advice of waiting twenty-four hours and typing it up on a W.P. was such that I should have taken.

Forgive me for being brief today. I can't stay upright for any length of time right now.

 

[Zecryphon]

Just to make myself clear - I liked Stude's on-fire attitude for standing up to the truth, but I did not care for the roasting of filo. I have been a part of filo's bible studies in person, and he knows of what he speaks and is a faithful pastor to be sure.

I like Stude's attitude too. But we must be careful when taking such a stance as our hearts can easily become hardened and we perceive our friends as foes. We must also be constantly aware of the consequences such strong stands for Scripture can have. Especially when one is posting on a Christian forum that for the most part, wants the warm fuzzies more than the truth of Christ and Him crucified and resurrected for our sins.