Should we force something into our belief?

[WoundedDeep]

Well IF its full of it, could you take the time to show me it teaching that God is 3 persons?

Also could you explain why these 94 biblical verses teach that there is one God that exist in one person?


Its at Open bible info slash topic slash one God.

Verses that show God is 3 persons:

"I and My Father are one." - Jesus speaking of God as His Father, and Him being One with the Father. (John 10:30)

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!"" (Matthew 16:16)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John talking about Jesus being the Word, and the fact that the Word was also God. (John 1:1)

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth" - Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of Truth. (John 14:16)

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - this is only in the King James version, because all other modern translations took this verse out. Here John talks specifically that the Father, the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit are One, all of them are One God. (1 John 5:7)

 

[Mickiel]

Verses that show God is 3 persons:

"I and My Father are one." - Jesus speaking of God as His Father, and Him being One with the Father. (John 10:30)

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!"" (Matthew 16:16)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John talking about Jesus being the Word, and the fact that the Word was also God. (John 1:1)

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth" - Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of Truth. (John 14:16)

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - this is only in the King James version, because all other modern translations took this verse out. Here John talks specifically that the Father, the Word (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit are One, all of them are One God. (1 John 5:7)

I can understand you at least trying to pull a trinity out of 1 John, but those other scriptures don't even come close. There are 94 scriptures that teach God is one, including God himself teaching it in Isaiah 46:9 he said " I am God and there is none else like me." Can you explain to me why what you are saying , is different from what God himself said, and why I should believe you over God himself?

 

[Deidre32]

I grew up Catholic, and Catholics don't only follow the Bible, as it relates to doctrine/dogma. I don't think that would be considered 'forcing' anything, but the whole 'whatever you loosed on earth, will be loosed in heaven, etc..' is where I believe some of that is derived from.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I can understand you at least trying to pull a trinity out of 1 John, but those other scriptures don't even come close. There are 94 scriptures that teach God is one, including God himself teaching it in Isaiah 46:9 he said " I am God and there is none else like me." Can you explain to me why what you are saying , is different from what God himself said, and why I should believe you over God himself?

God is One indeed. Didn't Jesus say He and the Father are One? Didn't John in 1 John say the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are One? Never did anyone say God is not One. There is no difference in what the Old Testament say about God being One, and what the NT say about Three Persons being One, those Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) can all be called God.

 

[Mickiel]

I grew up Catholic, and Catholics don't only follow the Bible, as it relates to doctrine/dogma. I don't think that would be considered 'forcing' anything, but the whole 'whatever you loosed on earth, will be loosed in heaven, etc..' is where I believe some of that is derived from.

Well I was questioning the brother about God being three persons, instead of one. He shows me some scriptures, only in one could I see anyone thinking it gives a clue to this idea of a trinity. I asked him should I believe him, and I showed him what God himself has said, or should I believe God. Listen, God even supersedes anythingelse written in scripture, no matter what writer wrote it.

Now, God himself said in Isaiah 44:6 , that he is the Lord, he alone is God, and besides him there is no other God, and Jesus was sitting next to him when he said that. God repeats this in Is. 43:11, 45:5-6, HE said that HE is God and there is no other God or God's; no trinity, no other ways to create another God in biblical doctrine. Now here we have God, the Highest, teaching and saying one thing, and we have some followers of God teaching and saying the total opposite from what God has said, then they turn right around and tell us not to add to scripture , but they are adding two more gods!

I don't get it!

 

[Mickiel]

God is One indeed. Didn't Jesus say He and the Father are One? Didn't John in 1 John say the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are One? Never did anyone say God is not One. There is no difference in what the Old Testament say about God being One, and what the NT say about Three Persons being One, those Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) can all be called God.

Oh Jesus said he and the Father are one, but what did he mean; he meant they each were one individual, they are one in purpose, one in unity, one in belief, one in their teachings, ect... He did NOT mean they shared the same form, are somehow embodied into the same singular existence, are some kind of freak show with three heads, or are sharing some kind of Christian symbiosis.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Oh Jesus said he and the Father are one, but what did he mean; he meant they each were one individual, they are one in purpose, one in unity, one in belief, one in their teachings, ect... He did NOT mean they shared the same form, are somehow embodied into the same singular existence, are some kind of freak show with three heads, or are sharing some kind of Christian symbiosis.

It mean they are one in nature, that nature is the nature of God. I'll give you an analogy:

Water in chemical terms is called H2O. H2O exists in 3 states, ice, liquid and vapour. Yet all these 3 states are one H2O.

God, similarly comes in 3 Persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All 3 Persons are one God.

 

[Mickiel]

It mean they are one in nature, that nature is the nature of God. I'll give you an analogy:

Water in chemical terms is called H2O. H2O exists in 3 states, ice, liquid and vapour. Yet all these 3 states are one H2O.

God, similarly comes in 3 Persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All 3 Persons are one God.

Again you are ignoring what God himself has explained, and you are trying to explain it with a water analogy. Again God himself, recorded in Isaiah 44:6, " I am the first and I am the last, besides me, there is no God." In 45:5, " I am the Lord, THERE IS NONE ELSE, there is no God besides me!" So what are you doing with that from God, you're using water and vapors to prove that what God said is wrong; your religion thinks there are 3 gods, meaning 2 others besides the Father.

Now, Jesus said in John 7:16 that his doctrine is NOT his, but the Fathers, separation and giving honor to the leader, the ONE in Charge. In vs. 28 he taught that God sent him, if they were the same, he could have sent himself. In John 8:29 Jesus said he ALWAYS does those things that please his Father, again a type of separation of personalities, where the Father is clearly superior! In John 14:16 Jesus prays to his Father, you don't pray to parts of yourself, again separation. In 15:1, Jesus taught he is the vine, but his Father is the husbandman, again separation. Individuality. In John 17:11, Jesus teaches that God the Father " Has his OWN Name!' He asked his Father to keep us in HIS OWN Name, the Fathers name, again separation.

In John 20:17 he comes right out and calls the Father, " His God", and our God. He never equated himself with God, Christianity is doing that, trying too. If God and Jesus were a trinity, then what the Father knows, the Son would know, In Matt. 24:36, ONLY the Father knows when the Kingdom will come, stunning separation and singularity!

 

[Colter]

I was wondering about this, been on my mind. Should we force something other than what we see in scripture, because of outside influences? Now that influence may take on many forms; another believer seeing something differing; A church seeing and teaching differently; a book that views it differently than you're own consciousness is seeing it? Its like the life of a Salmon, swimming against the current.

But yet its what you see. Its what you honestly understand.

In example, in Job 23:13, its describing an interesting thing about God himself, as far as I can see it, "But he is of one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desires, that he does!" Seems like a simple scripture on the surface; and what I see in it, I mean what I get from it, is that God does anything that he desires, or wants to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. Maybe, maybe most would see that, that far.

But then I combined this with another scripture that I see as well, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, " For this is Good and Acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who Desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." And I am thinking, wait a minute, in Job it states that what God desires, that he does and no one can turn him from it. Then Timothy states that he desires All men to be saved, and then I see " That he does!" So I see this, and many of my friends who believe also, just don't see that kind of salvation.

So there is a definite difference in seeing just what you see. Now my friends don't condemn me, because they know me all too well, but in just seeing this so differently, so great a salvation, oh it can ruffle all kinds of feathers in some believers! And I find that so strange? In scripture it states that we can hope for all things, but my goodness, if I hope for this desire of God to be very true, often I get condemned by other believers, for seeing a much differing salvation, then get treated as if I am an unbeliever?

And I have found out, you can't shake what's deeply implanted into you conscious belief. Oh I have changed my beliefs in many areas over the years, and would like to think when I am wrong, I can change to what is right. But I can't shake this off, because I am seeing it in many other scriptures as well.

Scripture is for the most part man made, it's already what some man thought about something that God or his subordinates did.

A person shouldn't believe something that they don't think is true, don't know why that needs to be said, but man can delude himself.

 

[Mickiel]

But again, understanding the scripture is not a walk in the park, its just not. We have to understand what is being said, inside and out! Jesus said in Mark 3:35, who ever does the will of God, " The SAME is MY brother, and my sister and my Mother!" Now, I am not Jesus sister, I am not his Mother, and in the Kingdom, there are no male-or female genders; so the meaning of what he SAID, is DIFFERENT FROM what he said, oh but how anyone interprets it is then up for doctrinal grabs. When 1 John 3:7 says there are three that bear witness in heaven, its different from verse 8 that states there are 3 that bear witness on earth, The Spirit, the water and the blood, and these 3 AGREE! Well vs. 8 is different , but the outcome is the SAME, AGREEMENT! The Holy Spirit and Jesus AGREE with God! They are separate entities. I am totally separate from my Father, but I have his genes IN me, no difference between Jesus, the first born SON of God, who had to DIE! And God, CANNOT DIE! Clear separation.

 

[Mickiel]

Scripture is for the most part man made, it's already what some man thought about something that God or his subordinates did.

A person shouldn't believe something that they don't think is true, don't know why that needs to be said, but man can delude himself.

Oh yes, its man made, so then absolute proof and evidence that God communicated through the writers; in example, the thoughts of the biblical authors are human thoughts, yes, but we believe inspired by God; what other book do you know that has 40 authors, from different places and different times, yet the book has so much cohesion? Its been on the best sellers list for over 400 years running! What other man made book has done that? It was originally written in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. The likes of which the world has never seen! Explain to me how men could accomplish that back then with no help? Its the most shoplifted book in the world, WHY, you think because just men had something to do with it?

No, this is no delusion, its more to it than human thought; something else tinkered with that book.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Again you are ignoring what God himself has explained, and you are trying to explain it with a water analogy. Again God himself, recorded in Isaiah 44:6, " I am the first and I am the last, besides me, there is no God." In 45:5, " I am the Lord, THERE IS NONE ELSE, there is no God besides me!" So what are you doing with that from God, you're using water and vapors to prove that what God said is wrong; your religion thinks there are 3 gods, meaning 2 others besides the Father.

Now, Jesus said in John 7:16 that his doctrine is NOT his, but the Fathers, separation and giving honor to the leader, the ONE in Charge. In vs. 28 he taught that God sent him, if they were the same, he could have sent himself. In John 8:29 Jesus said he ALWAYS does those things that please his Father, again a type of separation of personalities, where the Father is clearly superior! In John 14:16 Jesus prays to his Father, you don't pray to parts of yourself, again separation. In 15:1, Jesus taught he is the vine, but his Father is the husbandman, again separation. Individuality. In John 17:11, Jesus teaches that God the Father " Has his OWN Name!' He asked his Father to keep us in HIS OWN Name, the Fathers name, again separation.

In John 20:17 he comes right out and calls the Father, " His God", and our God. He never equated himself with God, Christianity is doing that, trying too. If God and Jesus were a trinity, then what the Father knows, the Son would know, In Matt. 24:36, ONLY the Father knows when the Kingdom will come, stunning separation and singularity!

No. Scripture cannot contradict with Scripture. 1 John clearly talked about three being One, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

When God speaks in Isaiah, all three Persons of Godhead speaks as One in the Person of the Son.

"I am the first and the last" in Isaiah 45:5 is similarly spoken in Revelation 22:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

It is Jesus who is coming quickly, and who speaks of Himself as the first and the last. It is the Person of the Son, Jesus Christ who was speaking in Isaiah 45:5. Yet He speaks not by Himself, but together with all the Three Persons of the Godhead.

There is a separation in the Godhead in terms of individual Persons, but not in terms of substance. There is only One God in terms of substance, but Three in terms of Persons. That is what the water analogy was trying to show.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Now, Jesus said in John 7:16 that his doctrine is NOT his, but the Fathers, separation and giving honor to the leader, the ONE in Charge. In vs. 28 he taught that God sent him, if they were the same, he could have sent himself. In John 8:29 Jesus said he ALWAYS does those things that please his Father, again a type of separation of personalities, where the Father is clearly superior! In John 14:16 Jesus prays to his Father, you don't pray to parts of yourself, again separation. In 15:1, Jesus taught he is the vine, but his Father is the husbandman, again separation. Individuality. In John 17:11, Jesus teaches that God the Father " Has his OWN Name!' He asked his Father to keep us in HIS OWN Name, the Fathers name, again separation.

In John 20:17 he comes right out and calls the Father, " His God", and our God. He never equated himself with God, Christianity is doing that, trying too. If God and Jesus were a trinity, then what the Father knows, the Son would know, In Matt. 24:36, ONLY the Father knows when the Kingdom will come, stunning separation and singularity!

I am talking about the Persons of God, they are distinct and separate. Your earthly father is just as fully human as you are, but you are not your father. God the Father is just as fully God as the God the Son/Word Jesus Christ, but they are not the same Persons.

There is a difference in authority even in the Godhead, yes. Father has the greatest authority, then Son, then Holy Spirit. In John 20:17, Jesus is right in calling His Father His God. God the Father calls the Son God too:

"But God said about His Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice." (Hebrews 1:8) See? The Son, Jesus Christ, is also called God.

 

[Mickiel]

No. Scripture cannot contradict with Scripture. 1 John clearly talked about three being One, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

When God speaks in Isaiah, all three Persons of Godhead speaks as One in the Person of the Son.

"I am the first and the last" in Isaiah 45:5 is similarly spoken in Revelation 22:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

It is Jesus who is coming quickly, and who speaks of Himself as the first and the last. It is the Person of the Son, Jesus Christ who was speaking in Isaiah 45:5. Yet He speaks not by Himself, but together with all the Three Persons of the Godhead.

There is a separation in the Godhead in terms of individual Persons, but not in terms of substance. There is only One God in terms of substance, but Three in terms of Persons. That is what the water analogy was trying to show.

I totally disagree, the Father God is NOT a person, the Holy Spirit is not a person; person, by definition, is and means " A human being." Your terms are incorrect, God is not a person , the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, so how can they be three in one persons?

 

[WoundedDeep]

I totally disagree, the Father God is NOT a person, the Holy Spirit is not a person; person, by definition, is and means " A human being." Your terms are incorrect, God is not a person , the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, so how can they be three in one persons?

Personalities, Persons, Individuals, however you want to call it. Scriptures have lots of teachings that God is One with Three distinct Personalities. Jesus is called God by the Father, the Father is called God by Jesus. The Holy Spirit is also God.

 

[Mickiel]

God is not a person or a personality.

He is a Spirit.

 

[WoundedDeep]

God is not a person or a personality.

He is a Spirit.

Yes, God is a Spirit. How does that affect the reality that He exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

I suggest you go in prayer to God about this. I have shown you the Scriptures where it say God is One in Three Individuals. Both the Father and Jesus (Son) are called God according to Scriptures. You should hold onto this fact therefore and not deny what Scriptures say.

 

[Mickiel]

Yes, God is a Spirit. How does that affect the reality that He exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

I suggest you go in prayer to God about this. I have shown you the Scriptures where it say God is One in Three Individuals. Both the Father and Jesus (Son) are called God according to Scriptures. You should hold onto this fact therefore and not deny what Scriptures say.

I have shown you more scriptures where God himself said he is the only God, and besides him there are no Gods; no scripture can supersede what God himself has said, and neither can Christianity. God is not a confused being that thinks he is both Father and Son; Christianity is confused, not God!

 

[Mickiel]

Yes, God is a Spirit. How does that affect the reality that He exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

I suggest you go in prayer to God about this. I have shown you the Scriptures where it say God is One in Three Individuals. Both the Father and Jesus (Son) are called God according to Scriptures. You should hold onto this fact therefore and not deny what Scriptures say.

I am curious, what scripture supersedes God himself talking? What scripture is more valid, one where God is speaking, or one where a writer in the bible is speaking?

And do you understand the difference?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So now " Wrong has varieties?"

I suspect that you weren't really paying attention to what I was saying.

All of the Christian versions of a punishing hell are wrong, and a simple study on the different meanings of hell would show that, but too many Christians are interested in protecting and upholding Christianity, than they are the truth. These things are too deeply rooted within them, they are " The doctrines of Men" Jesus spoke of, that are vain and yet part of their worship.

My suspicions are proven correct. I'd recommend going back and looking at what I actually said in my post as you managed to ignore it in its entirety and zip onto some sort of axe grinding.

In Matt. 23:13 Jesus teaching, " But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you Shut off the Kingdom from men." ( meaning they were teaching limited atonement, teaching that many will not make it into the Kingdom; same thing Christianity is doing) In verse 15 Jesus tickles me by adding, " You make people twice as much the child of hell than yourselves!"

Well, no, that isn't what Jesus was saying. Not least of all because:

A) The idea of atonement and reconciliation with God from sin, death, etc are Christian ideas based upon the Gospel narrative itself. As such the Pharisees did not have a conception of atonement and salvation, or at least anything remotely coming close to the Christian ideas of atonement and salvation which, as noted, are intrinsically bound into the Gospel story itself.

B) The kingdom of God as taught by Jesus is not "heaven" or an otherworldly ever-after. But a fundamental reality of what it means for God to be king, for God to reign, and the parables of Jesus are often, "This is what it looks like when God is king", and according to Jesus in the Gospels that ushering in of God's reign is something not happening "somewhere over there" but right here in our midst. Jesus not only is the Preacher of that kingdom, but the embodiment of that kingdom in His own ministry of reaching out to the poor, the hungry, the marginalized of society, to sinners, tax collectors, and prostitutes.

As such to "shut someone out" of the kingdom is not about saying they are not part of an afterlife reward, but rather that through religious hypocrisy and arrogance many were being shortchanged, turning away the needy, acting as unruly gatekeepers to the things of God who has come for the poor, the needy, the sinner, and the renegade.

Jesus never talks about "Heaven" and "Hell" as modern people conceive them because such ideas, being as modern as they are, are simply not part of the ancient world view in which Jesus shared and was communicating within. And as I sought to point out before, ideas that largely have only come into the Christian tradition rather late, not having their basis in the language and teachings of the ancient Christian fathers, the Creeds, or the many Confessions put forward within Christendom (East and West) for most of these last two thousand years.

If you had bothered to engage my previous post instead of rushing right past it, you would see that this is what I'm getting at.

-CryptoLutheran