Should we force something into our belief?

[Mickiel]

Well, in case you didn't read the definition, it is clear that there is a biblical term called fruit of the Spirit. Believe it or not. This fruit is produced in us, not God. Believe it or not.

Since you are getting snarky, I'll let you answer your own question. Maybe you posted it to take people's time and then give snarky retorts when you didn't hear what you believe.

It may do you well to not believe that you know it all and actually seek to learn or find.

It is very low level knowledge what the fruit of the Spirit is and the fact that you think they are talking about God is a HUGE giveaway that you have no idea what it means.

So, again good luck. Seek to learn or at least substantiate your own belief.

Go out and spend an hour on Google and come back. Then you can apologize to me. Thanks.

I have done nothing to you to apologise for?? Gal. 5:22-23 is Godly Character, not Christian character. Its God's ways, not human ways. I do not equate Christian to mean Godly. Christian is just a title that the Romans gave to believers of the way at Antioch, and those believers accepted the title.

Peace on your journey.

 

[Mickiel]

You seem to know already. I'll let someone else spend their time and get BARKED at.

You take offense easy; I was not barking at you.

But now that I see this in you, I will be more careful with you.

Peace.

 

[kristina411]

Mickiel, do you believe we are currently in hell?

I have had ideas along these lines throughout my time so I'm just curious if you have any scripture that you see as evidence of this?

I am actually divided on many of these subjects so I look to others ideas to see if they have missing links I have not yet crossed.

We should always remember we all serve and worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He encouraged even those who practice differently to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Mark 9:39-41 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

 

[jacknife]

Mickiel, do you believe we are currently in hell?

I have had ideas along these lines throughout my time so I'm just curious if you have any scripture that you see as evidence of this?

I am actually divided on many of these subjects so I look to others ideas to see if they have missing links I have not yet crossed.

We should always remember we all serve and worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He encouraged even those who practice differently to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Mark 9:39-41 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

if this is hell.....then hell is rather pleasant.

 

[Mickiel]

Mickiel, do you believe we are currently in hell?

I have had ideas along these lines throughout my time so I'm just curious if you have any scripture that you see as evidence of this?

I am actually divided on many of these subjects so I look to others ideas to see if they have missing links I have not yet crossed.

We should always remember we all serve and worship the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. He encouraged even those who practice differently to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Mark 9:39-41 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

Greetings,

I do not believe in the mainstream Christian version of hell, the way they describe it and explain it, no. In my understanding and belief, the way I am seeing scripture, is as follows;

In the Old Testament , hell is mentioned 31 times, each of those times it is the Hebrew word " Sheol", its term for the " Grave." Nowhere in the entire Old Testament is anyone ever threatened with a hell, that matches the Christian definition and interpretation of it. No one is explained what that version of hell is, nor ever threatened with it as a result of sin. Which I find of arcane interest, IF the Christian version of hell is true.

Hell is mentioned 23 times in the New Testament. 12 times it means " Gehanna", or an actual valley outside of Jerusalem, called the valley of Hinnon. An actual place where they burned refuse and dead bodies, and kept the flames burning for purification purposes.

10 times it means " Hades", still the grave.

Only one tome in scripture does hell mean anything remotely close to what most are teaching; in 2 Pet. 2:4 hell is used in an eternal sense, and torment could be possible in its explination, the hell here, and only here in scripture is " Tartaros", the Greek for hell, but it has been used for eternal torment. And in this verse its clear that this is ONLY for the devil and his demons, not reserved for humans.

Again, this is going to ruffle some believers here feathers, because they have not been taught this, but if one takes the time with a concordance and check each verse with hell in it, check the meaning, they can see this for themselves.

 

[Mickiel]

Should we force something into our belief, and for what reasons?

Because of tradition?

Because your church teaches it?

Because of religion? ( does your religion mean more than the truth?)

Because of family and friends?

Because of books you read?

Just what is the real biblical description of how the truth enters into the human consciousness?

 

[kristina411]

Greetings,

I do not believe in the mainstream Christian version of hell, the way they describe it and explain it, no. In my understanding and belief, the way I am seeing scripture, is as follows;

In the Old Testament , hell is mentioned 31 times, each of those times it is the Hebrew word " Sheol", its term for the " Grave." Nowhere in the entire Old Testament is anyone ever threatened with a hell, that matches the Christian definition and interpretation of it. No one is explained what that version of hell is, nor ever threatened with it as a result of sin. Which I find of arcane interest, IF the Christian version of hell is true.

Hell is mentioned 23 times in the New Testament. 12 times it means " Gehanna", or an actual valley outside of Jerusalem, called the valley of Hinnon. An actual place where they burned refuse and dead bodies, and kept the flames burning for purification purposes.

10 times it means " Hades", still the grave.

Only one tome in scripture does hell mean anything remotely close to what most are teaching; in 2 Pet. 2:4 hell is used in an eternal sense, and torment could be possible in its explination, the hell here, and only here in scripture is " Tartaros", the Greek for hell, but it has been used for eternal torment. And in this verse its clear that this is ONLY for the devil and his demons, not reserved for humans.

Again, this is going to ruffle some believers here feathers, because they have not been taught this, but if one takes the time with a concordance and check each verse with hell in it, check the meaning, they can see this for themselves.

I haven't made a certain decision but I have considered the idea of hell as eternal death and my opinions often lean that way. It is repeated in the new testament repeatedly that it is eternal and you can read "weeping and gnashing of teeth" but other scripture leads me to believe it is death. Especially since Jesus Himself repeatedly discussed the dead as the ones who did not "inherit eternal life" which also suggests no hell, only eternity for certain believers.

But I haven't gone into details on this subject yet either. I'm trying to work on the teachings of Jesus, and how to live according to Him now, next step will be working out these details and what I believe them to be.

But I do think it is very much possible that hell is death of the spirit. I was discussing this with my husband just the other day. That perhaps the references to hell are the method in which the souls that were not saved are "disposed" of. It sounds so harsh but the alternative to eternal suffering is much less idealistic.

If you believe that hell I'd death itself, I suppose you do not believe what some others do, that Jesus visited hell before he was arisen? Do you believe Jesus is Son of God?

 

[Soul2Soul]

Should we force something into our belief, and for what reasons?

Because of tradition?

Because your church teaches it?

Because of religion? ( does your religion mean more than the truth?)

Because of family and friends?

Because of books you read?

Just what is the real biblical description of how the truth enters into the human consciousness?

I am not sure why anyone would want and/or have to force something into one's belief(s)? Why (sincerely) believe in something under duress? It seems to me that it would be counter productive(?).

What is the real biblical description of how the truth enters into the human consciousness?

From my understanding and experience it is via scripture(s) in conjunction with the work of The Holy Spirit i.e. convicting one of sin, righteousness and judgement (through the scriptures).

 

[Mickiel]

I haven't made a certain decision but I have considered the idea of hell as eternal death and my opinions often lean that way. It is repeated in the new testament repeatedly that it is eternal and you can read "weeping and gnashing of teeth" but other scripture leads me to believe it is death. Especially since Jesus Himself repeatedly discussed the dead as the ones who did not "inherit eternal life" which also suggests no hell, only eternity for certain believers.

But I haven't gone into details on this subject yet either. I'm trying to work on the teachings of Jesus, and how to live according to Him now, next step will be working out these details and what I believe them to be.

But I do think it is very much possible that hell is death of the spirit. I was discussing this with my husband just the other day. That perhaps the references to hell are the method in which the souls that were not saved are "disposed" of. It sounds so harsh but the alternative to eternal suffering is much less idealistic.

If you believe that hell I'd death itself, I suppose you do not believe what some others do, that Jesus visited hell before he was arisen? Do you believe Jesus is Son of God?

I most certainly do believe in Jesus being the Son of God , I believe in God and the bible is his word, with me, I just have stopped thinking that religion and most of Christianity is my source of learning about those three things. I am not against others who depend on religion for their nourishment and learning, but I could no longer force it into my spirit; something in me, over 30 years ago, started going against it.

Something in me started going against the teachings on hell and the Fire of God in scripture. I started questioning the traditional religious views on limited salvation, I found out through simple study that hell in the bible, simply means the grave, or a pit outside of Jerusalem. I found out that salvation was not based on human will, but on God's will; just those two things were like me going to the mountain top and allowed to look over and see something so fantastic, that it's unbelievable! Something actually hidden from the wise.

And it tripped me out, and then I knew the true meaning of " The Good News", God's grace, forgiveness, predestination, Love, gift of God, Jesus Holy Sacrifice, now none of these were tainted by this hell believed in, this horrid misunderstanding of free will; now I could see the true Salvation of a real enigmatic being like God; now religion could not insult the integrity of God to me any longer, a different type of freedom began.

I don't have to force things into my spirit any longer.

 

[Mickiel]

You ever sensed that something might be wrong with something you believe? Have you ever seriously thought about how long eternity must be> I mean one can imagine 999,888,666 billion years times 432,768,900 trillion years , and eternity has not even begun. Now can you also try to imagine a human being, in suffering every day, every moment and second of that day, but lets just say the suffering and agony must last as long as eternity. Do you REALLY know what that belief is suggesting, this eternal hell suffering? I can no longer force it into my belief. It suggest that;

Jesus was punished for a short time on earth, in order that most of the people he died for could be punished forever.

That a Great Merciful, Forgiving and Loving being like God, would actually co-exist with this mundane misery in eternity.

That God, in his infinite wisdom , designed and created a permanent pain amplifier.

That God cares more about this so called " Free Will", than he does about saving humans who don't know what they are doing.

It also suggest that the Christian version of hell, has to require God to create some spectacular " Super humanoid Sufferers" out of ordinary human beings, because no normal human being could suffer, lets say, what- 300 years straight without going insane? Why punish someone who is driven insane from being punished? What fun is that, we want them to feel each second of the torture.

They have to be recreated, given eternal life, given a super mind that will not crack under this immense pressure, AND, given the legs of the incredible Hulk, because they must stand up for all eternity, unless God allows " Sitting breaks" every what, 10 thousand years? They must be given the ability of the human torch , to " Flame on", but not ever combust and burn up, in these flames. They must be given " Super clothes" that will not burn up, unless God will have them roasting naked, which would be kind of awkward, don't you think? They must be given the ability of " Aquaman", to swim in this incredible lake of fire.

And hey listen, these poor super humanoids will be quite formidable with all that power, so God must post at least a legion of powerful angels there, because after 999,999,999,999,999,999,999 trillion billion quadrillion years of this incredible suffering, they might just be getting mad at God and try to escape;

and we would not want any of them getting out, now would we?

 

[Mickiel]

I wonder if in the Christian version of hell , if the people suffering there will be fed? You can't starve them to death, because supposedly they will have eternal life. So what kind of food will be served? Lets try and fit this into belief;

Cold cuts? At least it could survive the heat, or be cooked by the heat.

Hot dogs!

Flaming burgers?

Hot sauce?

Hot peppers?

Hot tomales?

Well we know there will be no ice cream.

What about activities? I mean we can't just let them suffer 24/7 for all eternity with no kind of social life in hell? I know! We can give them fire surf boards and let them surf the flames!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Greetings,

I do not believe in the mainstream Christian version of hell, the way they describe it and explain it, no. In my understanding and belief, the way I am seeing scripture, is as follows;

In the Old Testament , hell is mentioned 31 times, each of those times it is the Hebrew word " Sheol", its term for the " Grave." Nowhere in the entire Old Testament is anyone ever threatened with a hell, that matches the Christian definition and interpretation of it. No one is explained what that version of hell is, nor ever threatened with it as a result of sin. Which I find of arcane interest, IF the Christian version of hell is true.

Hell is mentioned 23 times in the New Testament. 12 times it means " Gehanna", or an actual valley outside of Jerusalem, called the valley of Hinnon. An actual place where they burned refuse and dead bodies, and kept the flames burning for purification purposes.

10 times it means " Hades", still the grave.

Only one tome in scripture does hell mean anything remotely close to what most are teaching; in 2 Pet. 2:4 hell is used in an eternal sense, and torment could be possible in its explination, the hell here, and only here in scripture is " Tartaros", the Greek for hell, but it has been used for eternal torment. And in this verse its clear that this is ONLY for the devil and his demons, not reserved for humans.

Again, this is going to ruffle some believers here feathers, because they have not been taught this, but if one takes the time with a concordance and check each verse with hell in it, check the meaning, they can see this for themselves.

In the strictest sense there is no "mainstream Christian version of hell". The historic Christian faith has come together on many issues, the core of those being outlined in the Nicene Creed.

The concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" however have been fluid, divergent. The biggest place of divergence is between Eastern and Western Christianity. The divide between Eastern and Western Christianity has its origins long before official division ever happened:

A confluence of differences in language (the Greek-speaking East vs. the Latin-speaking West), politics (the Fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, the unification of the Franks, the wars of Justinian, the crowning of Charlemagne, the rise of Islam in the East and the loss of Roman land in Africa and Asia, among others), different foundational theologians (St. Augustine is de facto the chief theologian of the Christian West, whereas Augustine was virtually unknown and of almost no importance in the Christian East where theologians such as St. Maximos the Confessor, St. John of Damascus, and the earlier Capadocians were far more important). Even Christian art was different, and one can see in theologies of images in East and West significant differences (the East, for example, historically rejects three-dimensional divine images as inappropriate).

The ideas of what we moderns will call "Heaven" and "Hell" are likewise significantly different between East and West. To an Eastern Orthodox Christian the modern caricature of "Hell" as a fiery chasm beneath the earth where the souls of the damned are harassed by devils for eternity is completely foreign. Classical medieval art of the Last Judgment with the souls of the damned being cast into pits of fire while the righteous are taken to dwell in a blessed otherwhere is uniquely Western; such images again are foreign to the Christian East.

The fact of the matter is that traditional Christianity doesn't have a monolithic idea of "Hell", and the stereotypical modern idea of "Heaven" is entirely alien from the historic faith of the Christian Church, both East and West. As an example of the latter one will never find in the Ecumenical Creeds a statement saying that the righteous will be taken away and live forever in a place called "Heaven" as whispy ghost-things in the sweet by-and-by. Instead the eternal and future hope is the bodily resurrection of the dead and everlasting life in the future world. As such "Heaven" if it should be called that, isn't "up there" it's down here on this solid ball of rock we call the earth.

For a variety of views on "Hell" there are three sources I'd recommend:

1) Look up comments written by a 7th century theologian, St. Isaac the Syrian (also known as St. Isaac of Nineveh), virtually every Eastern Orthodox source will usually talk about "Hell" the same way he does. And it's radically different than what most modern westerners are familiar with.

2) The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis.

3) Dare We Hope by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I wonder if in the Christian version of hell , if the people suffering there will be fed? You can't starve them to death, because supposedly they will have eternal life. So what kind of food will be served? Lets try and fit this into belief;

Cold cuts? At least it could survive the heat, or be cooked by the heat.

Hot dogs!

Flaming burgers?

Hot sauce?

Hot peppers?

Hot tomales?

Well we know there will be no ice cream.

What about activities? I mean we can't just let them suffer 24/7 for all eternity with no kind of social life in hell? I know! We can give them fire surf boards and let them surf the flames!

I once came across a sort of parable as a teaching tool for "Heaven" and "Hell" that has stood with me for many years now.

A man dies and is taken by an angel into a vast banquet hall where an immense number of people are seated at great big tables with more luxurious food than could ever be imagined. They sat at the table with bowels of food, with servings so large it spilled over. However the spoons and utensils by which to feed themselves were absurdly long and unwieldy. So each time one of them tried to feed him or herself the food fell upon the floor or upon themselves, never reaching their mouth. They did this time and again without success. They were grumbling, unsatisfied, miserable as they could not feed themselves.

The angel then takes the same man to another vast banquet hall identical to the last. An immense number of people seated around great big tables with the same food, even the same absurdly long spoons and utensils. But here the people were happy, because with their great long spoons they extended their reach across the table and fed one another. Each giving to the one across from them, and they were well satisfied.

The first hall was Hell, the second Heaven.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I don't think we should add anything to the word of God, many things can be spiritualised even seemingly moral movies or books but it does not make them inspired by God, if we start accepting anything on it's apparent merits we can make anything fit what we chose to believe and follow which is not solid ground that the bible talks of.

 

[Mickiel]

I don't think we should add anything to the word of God, many things can be spiritualised even seemingly moral movies or books but it does not make them inspired by God, if we start accepting anything on it's apparent merits we can make anything fit what we chose to believe and follow which is not solid ground that the bible talks of.

The term " Trinity" is not found in scripture , and Jesus did not teach the trinity, no prophet taught it, and no biblical writer taught it, yet Christianity " Added that."???

 

[Mickiel]

In the strictest sense there is no "mainstream Christian version of hell". The historic Christian faith has come together on many issues, the core of those being outlined in the Nicene Creed.

The concepts of "Heaven" and "Hell" however have been fluid, divergent. The biggest place of divergence is between Eastern and Western Christianity. The divide between Eastern and Western Christianity has its origins long before official division ever happened:

A confluence of differences in language (the Greek-speaking East vs. the Latin-speaking West), politics (the Fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, the unification of the Franks, the wars of Justinian, the crowning of Charlemagne, the rise of Islam in the East and the loss of Roman land in Africa and Asia, among others), different foundational theologians (St. Augustine is de facto the chief theologian of the Christian West, whereas Augustine was virtually unknown and of almost no importance in the Christian East where theologians such as St. Maximos the Confessor, St. John of Damascus, and the earlier Capadocians were far more important). Even Christian art was different, and one can see in theologies of images in East and West significant differences (the East, for example, historically rejects three-dimensional divine images as inappropriate).

The ideas of what we moderns will call "Heaven" and "Hell" are likewise significantly different between East and West. To an Eastern Orthodox Christian the modern caricature of "Hell" as a fiery chasm beneath the earth where the souls of the damned are harassed by devils for eternity is completely foreign. Classical medieval art of the Last Judgment with the souls of the damned being cast into pits of fire while the righteous are taken to dwell in a blessed otherwhere is uniquely Western; such images again are foreign to the Christian East.

The fact of the matter is that traditional Christianity doesn't have a monolithic idea of "Hell", and the stereotypical modern idea of "Heaven" is entirely alien from the historic faith of the Christian Church, both East and West. As an example of the latter one will never find in the Ecumenical Creeds a statement saying that the righteous will be taken away and live forever in a place called "Heaven" as whispy ghost-things in the sweet by-and-by. Instead the eternal and future hope is the bodily resurrection of the dead and everlasting life in the future world. As such "Heaven" if it should be called that, isn't "up there" it's down here on this solid ball of rock we call the earth.

For a variety of views on "Hell" there are three sources I'd recommend:

1) Look up comments written by a 7th century theologian, St. Isaac the Syrian (also known as St. Isaac of Nineveh), virtually every Eastern Orthodox source will usually talk about "Hell" the same way he does. And it's radically different than what most modern westerners are familiar with.

2) The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis.

3) Dare We Hope by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar.

-CryptoLutheran

So now " Wrong has varieties?" All of the Christian versions of a punishing hell are wrong, and a simple study on the different meanings of hell would show that, but too many Christians are interested in protecting and upholding Christianity, than they are the truth. These things are too deeply rooted within them, they are " The doctrines of Men" Jesus spoke of, that are vain and yet part of their worship.

In Matt. 23:13 Jesus teaching, " But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you Shut off the Kingdom from men." ( meaning they were teaching limited atonement, teaching that many will not make it into the Kingdom; same thing Christianity is doing) In verse 15 Jesus tickles me by adding, " You make people twice as much the child of hell than yourselves!"

 

[WoundedDeep]

I was wondering about this, been on my mind. Should we force something other than what we see in scripture, because of outside influences? Now that influence may take on many forms; another believer seeing something differing; A church seeing and teaching differently; a book that views it differently than you're own consciousness is seeing it? Its like the life of a Salmon, swimming against the current.

But yet its what you see. Its what you honestly understand.

In example, in Job 23:13, its describing an interesting thing about God himself, as far as I can see it, "But he is of one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desires, that he does!" Seems like a simple scripture on the surface; and what I see in it, I mean what I get from it, is that God does anything that he desires, or wants to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. Maybe, maybe most would see that, that far.

But then I combined this with another scripture that I see as well, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, " For this is Good and Acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who Desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." And I am thinking, wait a minute, in Job it states that what God desires, that he does and no one can turn him from it. Then Timothy states that he desires All men to be saved, and then I see " That he does!" So I see this, and many of my friends who believe also, just don't see that kind of salvation.

So there is a definite difference in seeing just what you see. Now my friends don't condemn me, because they know me all too well, but in just seeing this so differently, so great a salvation, oh it can ruffle all kinds of feathers in some believers! And I find that so strange? In scripture it states that we can hope for all things, but my goodness, if I hope for this desire of God to be very true, often I get condemned by other believers, for seeing a much differing salvation, then get treated as if I am an unbeliever?

And I have found out, you can't shake what's deeply implanted into you conscious belief. Oh I have changed my beliefs in many areas over the years, and would like to think when I am wrong, I can change to what is right. But I can't shake this off, because I am seeing it in many other scriptures as well.

There is a biblical procedure to receive salvation, and a biblical principle that can be applied to our lives. The fact is, a true believer (not a professing one) will have the Spirit of God who is also the Spirit of Truth teaching him/her everything he/she needs to know about salvation. I can personally testify to this because I was formally an atheist and was forbidden to go to church for years as a new Christian. God not only taught me by His Spirit who Jesus Christ is and what He did for us on the Cross, He taught that obedience to God's commands is the mark of true faith, and without this true faith, we cannot be saved.

This then lead me to understand many different things and contradictions that people perceive from the Bible, and also how many doctrines taught today (such as OSAS, predestination) contradict with early church teachings. At the end of the day, one must seek God and God alone for the truth and no one else. That is what I did with my faith and God has been faithful to give me understanding and wisdom.

 

[WoundedDeep]

The term " Trinity" is not found in scripture , and Jesus did not teach the trinity, no prophet taught it, and no biblical writer taught it, yet Christianity " Added that."???

Jesus did mention about the Holy Spirit, or the Comforter when He talked to His disciples. Jesus also mentioned His Father as God, and that was the reason why people wanted to crucify Him. They know that Jesus is claiming to be God. So in fact, the NT is full of teachings about how God exists in Three Persons, Father (as acknowledged by Jesus), Son (Jesus Himself and the voice of heaven who called Him "This is My Son") and Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth, the Comforter).

 

[Mickiel]

[QUOTE=WoundedDeep;
Well IF its full of it, could you take the time to show me it teaching that God is 3 persons?

Also could you explain why these 94 biblical verses teach that there is one God that exist in one person?


Its at Open bible info slash topic slash one God.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Well IF its full of it, could you take the time to show me it teaching that God is 3 persons?

Also could you explain why these 94 biblical verses teach that there is one God that exist in one person?


Its at Open bible info slash topic slash one God.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says God exists in only one person?