Should we force something into our belief?

[Mickiel]

I was wondering about this, been on my mind. Should we force something other than what we see in scripture, because of outside influences? Now that influence may take on many forms; another believer seeing something differing; A church seeing and teaching differently; a book that views it differently than you're own consciousness is seeing it? Its like the life of a Salmon, swimming against the current.

But yet its what you see. Its what you honestly understand.

In example, in Job 23:13, its describing an interesting thing about God himself, as far as I can see it, "But he is of one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desires, that he does!" Seems like a simple scripture on the surface; and what I see in it, I mean what I get from it, is that God does anything that he desires, or wants to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. Maybe, maybe most would see that, that far.

But then I combined this with another scripture that I see as well, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, " For this is Good and Acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who Desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." And I am thinking, wait a minute, in Job it states that what God desires, that he does and no one can turn him from it. Then Timothy states that he desires All men to be saved, and then I see " That he does!" So I see this, and many of my friends who believe also, just don't see that kind of salvation.

So there is a definite difference in seeing just what you see. Now my friends don't condemn me, because they know me all too well, but in just seeing this so differently, so great a salvation, oh it can ruffle all kinds of feathers in some believers! And I find that so strange? In scripture it states that we can hope for all things, but my goodness, if I hope for this desire of God to be very true, often I get condemned by other believers, for seeing a much differing salvation, then get treated as if I am an unbeliever?

And I have found out, you can't shake what's deeply implanted into you conscious belief. Oh I have changed my beliefs in many areas over the years, and would like to think when I am wrong, I can change to what is right. But I can't shake this off, because I am seeing it in many other scriptures as well.

 

[kristina411]

I am a FIRM believer in personal bible time, discovering the lessons of the bible between you and the Holy Spirit, and coming to discussion with others for direction if needed but never forced. Just for ideas if left with confusion. You should never feel forced to believe anything.

For your idea of salvation I dont think I quite followed, I believe something is missing in your description. Is it your belief by the scripture you have posted that all are saved because it is Gods desire that all be saved?
I can understand that idea and respect that idea. While I hold the mindset that He could have us all believe as it is His desire, He does not because He wants it to be our desire as well. But none know what He sees so we are all searching and hopefully with the Holy Spirit as our guide.

 

[Mickiel]

I am a FIRM believer in personal bible time, discovering the lessons of the bible between you and the Holy Spirit, and coming to discussion with others for direction if needed but never forced. Just for ideas if left with confusion. You should never feel forced to believe anything.

For your idea of salvation I dont think I quite followed, I believe something is missing in your description. Is it your belief by the scripture you have posted that all are saved because it is Gods desire that all be saved?
I can understand that idea and respect that idea. While I hold the mindset that He could have us all believe as it is His desire, He does not because He wants it to be our desire as well. But none know what He sees so we are all searching and hopefully with the Holy Spirit as our guide.

I mean its just what the scripture plainly stated, God desires, ( meaning he wants) all to be saved. I read another scripture that states that he is not willing that any would perish, but that all come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3:9. What I am reading is that its actually God's will for all to be saved. Which is incredible! I see God as a being that gets everything he wants, I have not seen in scripture where he does not get what he desires. Job stated that nothing can turn him from his desires.

As far as him not giving salvation to a human that does not desire it, consider this scripture, a " Holy Vow" sworn by God himself, that I see no room for human desire or will in; Isaiah 45:23, God speaking, " I have Sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in Righteousness, and shall not return to me void, ( not return to him un accomplished, similar to Job asking, " Who can turn him?), that to me, Every knee shall bow and Every tongue shall confess."

Wow!

God swearing that everyone will submit to him and confess, which in my view, is conversion.

 

[kristina411]

I love that view, its very loving. Its admirable. I do see how you come with that conclusion. Its an interesting idea for sure. To fully understand I would have to reference each of your verses to their chapters and books and analyze the dialogs taking place during the scripture to see where it fits. I well try to make time for this tomorrow morning and perhaps be a better discussion companion on the subject

 

[jacknife]

I mean its just what the scripture plainly stated, God desires, ( meaning he wants) all to be saved. I read another scripture that states that he is not willing that any would perish, but that all come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3:9. What I am reading is that its actually God's will for all to be saved. Which is incredible! I see God as a being that gets everything he wants, I have not seen in scripture where he does not get what he desires. Job stated that nothing can turn him from his desires.

As far as him not giving salvation to a human that does not desire it, consider this scripture, a " Holy Vow" sworn by God himself, that I see no room for human desire or will in; Isaiah 45:23, God speaking, " I have Sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in Righteousness, and shall not return to me void, ( not return to him un accomplished, similar to Job asking, " Who can turn him?), that to me, Every knee shall bow and Every tongue shall confess."

Wow!

God swearing that everyone will submit to him and confess, which in my view, is conversion.

i still don't get it. so everyone will convert? are you saying everyone gets into heaven? (i dont mean this to be insulting i am just curious)

 

[Mickiel]

i still don't get it. so everyone will convert? are you saying everyone gets into heaven? (i dont mean this to be insulting i am just curious)

Well the " I don't get it", is what I mean by not " Seeing it." No scripture is of any private interpretation, none of us can corner the market on truth, all I am sharing is what I see, not trying to change what others see. I see in scripture that in a time to come, that everyone will see the Salvation of God, Luke 3:6.

Now why would God show everyone his Salvation, and then not give it to them? To protect a concept called " Free Will?" Oh because of this concept, he will let humans decide to be stupid and miss out on the greatest gift possible?

I don't see that.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I think that I see what you are trying to say Mickiel.

Are you trying to say that God always get's what He wants? I'm reading this comment that you made, "I see God as a being that gets everything he wants, I have not seen in scripture where he does not get what he desires. Job stated that nothing can turn him from his desires."

First I would like to say that no I do not believe that God get's everything that He wants. I've read several things in the Bible that show me, IMHO that God does not get exactly what He wants.

We were created with free will and God gives us that. Whenever you give someone true free will, there is the possibility that they will do what you do not want them to do.

Genesis 6:5-7
"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

"I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." 12God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations;"

2 Peter 3:8-9
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance"



When it talks about that every knee shall bow, that is in heaven when all will know that their is a God and will be in His presence.

 

[kristina411]

^ agreed.

And we should all interpret for ourselves, otherwise we are leaving our trust in a human and not in the book that is our gift from God.
If you pray for understanding and dive into the Bible with open eyes, you are sure to learn more than what anyone can tell you.

I will look deeper when I have the chance but to my understanding, when every knee bows it will be because even the unbelievers will be shown the error of their ways, and have no choice. But because they are being forced to bow and not choose to bow, they have not been granted salvation.

Now I have a desire that even the darkest of people receive salvation. The idea of any soul in torment for eternity is painful to imagine. But it is not our choice.

If Jesus, the Son of God, says that some will be sent to hell, I'm gonna believe Him. However, if during the end times there is another chance for souls to come to repentance and salvation I am unsure but it has been my understanding by the teachings of Jesus, that not all-worse yet only few- will be saved.

 

[jacknife]

Well the " I don't get it", is what I mean by not " Seeing it." No scripture is of any private interpretation, none of us can corner the market on truth, all I am sharing is what I see, not trying to change what others see. I see in scripture that in a time to come, that everyone will see the Salvation of God, Luke 3:6.

Now why would God show everyone his Salvation, and then not give it to them? To protect a concept called " Free Will?" Oh because of this concept, he will let humans decide to be stupid and miss out on the greatest gift possible?

I don't see that.

I actually think their is a denomination of Christianity that holds a belief similar to this but i cant recall it's name for the life of me.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Now why would God show everyone his Salvation, and then not give it to them? To protect a concept called " Free Will?" Oh because of this concept, he will let humans decide to be stupid and miss out on the greatest gift possible?

I don't see that.

If we look back throughout the Bible, I am going to touch briefly on some main points.

When God created Adam and Eve, they walked WITH God. They didn't just know OF GOD, but they interacted with Him all the time. Why? Because before sin, there was no enimity between us and God.

When sin came to Adam and Eve, there was a HUGE PROBLEM. The problem was that God is holy and man/woman had sinned.

God because He is holy cannot commune with sin.

So, God gave the Law (10 commandments) to Moses and the Israelites. If they kept the Law, then they would not be in sin. The problem is that no one could perfectly keep the Law, so that didn't work.

So, because people were unable to keep the Law, God sent His Only Begotten Son to DIE FOR US, because we couldn't get back to being holy ourselves.

Jesus died in our place, for our sins. Since Jesus is HOLY, Jesus imputes His sinless righteousness on us. So when the Father sees us, He doesn't see our sin, but see's His Son and He is holy.

Through Jesus, the Father see's us as holy. When the Father see's us, He see's His perfect Son. We are not made holy by anything that we have done, but because Jesus impudes His righteousness to us.

With the righteousness and holiness of Christ, we are once again reconciled back to God. That is why we are given the Holy Spirit, a part of God, because we have been reconciled back to God.

People still have free will and people must CHOOSE to accept salvation.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I actually think their is a denomination of Christianity that holds a belief similar to this but i cant recall it's name for the life of me.

I think it's called Universalism.

 

[Mickiel]

I think that I see what you are trying to say Mickiel.

Are you trying to say that God always get's what He wants? I'm reading this comment that you made, "I see God as a being that gets everything he wants, I have not seen in scripture where he does not get what he desires. Job stated that nothing can turn him from his desires."

First I would like to say that no I do not believe that God get's everything that He wants. I've read several things in the Bible that show me, IMHO that God does not get exactly what He wants.

We were created with free will and God gives us that. Whenever you give someone true free will, there is the possibility that they will do what you do not want them to do.



When it talks about that every knee shall bow, that is in heaven when all will know that their is a God and will be in His presence.

Well this is what I mean by so many seeing differently, I don't see in those three scriptures God not getting what he wants. Being grieved at his heart, means God " Suffers for us", one of the fruits of his Spirit is " Longsuffering, how can it be a fruit of his Spirit, and he himself not experience it? That does not mean he does not get his way with humanity. Him saying he will never flood the earth again, is not him being deprived of his will. And him having every human bow is NOT taking place in Heaven, in Isaiah 45:22, it clearly states, " Look unto me, and be you saved, ALL the ends of THE EARTH, not heaven! In verse 24 it clearly states that to him shall MEN come; flesh humans, not heavenly transfigured humans who are now Spirit beings.

So you see the difference in what we are seeing? A huge difference!

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Well this is what I mean by so many seeing differently, I don't see in those three scriptures God not getting what he wants. Being grieved at his heart, means God " Suffers for us", one of the fruits of his Spirit is " Longsuffering, how can it be a fruit of his Spirit, and he himself not experience it? That does not mean he does not get his way with humanity. Him saying he will never flood the earth again, is not him being deprived of his will. And him having every human bow is NOT taking place in Heaven, in Isaiah 45:22, it clearly states, " Look unto me, and be you saved, ALL the ends of THE EARTH, not heaven! In verse 24 it clearly states that to him shall MEN come; flesh humans, not heavenly transfigured humans who are now Spirit beings.

So you see the difference in what we are seeing? A huge difference!

I guess we must see it differently. You know what has helped me a lot in understanding scripture? A parrallel bible. Where more than one Bible version is shown side-by-side.

A fruit of the spirit is what good things are produced in us (humans) through our walking with God. I don't think I have ever heard someone say that God would have to also experience the fruit of the spirit? That is more than a little off base, IMHO. And God of course can be grieved, but long suffering? I don't think you should make assumptions like that that are not in the Word. God is holy. We cannot automatically account something that is for us as being the same for Him. It is not the Spirit, but fruit (meaning outcome in us) from walking with the Spirit. Two very different things.

Him not flooding the earth does not mean He was deprived of His will, how? It is important in the fact that He made a covenant with us not to do that again.

I hope you find what you are seeking to find. I'm not sure it exists though.

 

[kristina411]

I was under the idea the the fruit of the spirit were attributes we gain by living in the spirit. The fruit being what is described, the spirit being the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

 

[Mickiel]

I was under the idea the the fruit of the spirit were attributes we gain by living in the spirit. The fruit being what is described, the spirit being the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

Well in my understanding, the fruit of the Spirit ARE the very character of God himself, in other words , they " Describe his ways and being." In fact, I believe that Gal. 5:22-23, is one of the most detailed descriptions of God. Its how he really is. And I think when the Spirit of God is really in a human, they would have these ways as well.

God is Love ( describing what he will " Do", he will love), he is Joyful , he is Peaceful, he is longsuffering, he really is by nature gentle, he is a Good being, he has great faith, he is meek in his disposition and he is temperate, meaning he does not have hissy fits! He does not loose control of himself.

And yes, I agree that IF a human had God's Spirit, they would be given these things as well.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Well in my understanding, the fruit of the Spirit ARE the very character of God himself, in other words , they " Describe his ways and being." In fact, I believe that Gal. 5:22-23, is one of the most detailed descriptions of God. Its how he really is. And I think when the Spirit of God is really in a human, they would have these ways as well.

God is Love ( describing what he will " Do", he will love), he is Joyful , he is Peaceful, he is longsuffering, he really is by nature gentle, he is a Good being, he has great faith, he is meek in his disposition and he is temperate, meaning he does not have hissy fits! He does not loose control of himself.

And yes, I agree that IF a human had God's Spirit, they would be given these things as well.

Nope that is incorrect.

Here is a definition I found.


Fruit of the Holy Spirit
A biblical term that sums up the nine visible attributes of a Jesus Christ Christian life written of by Paul in his Letter to the Galatians chapter 5. Though this references nine attributes to the Fruit of the Spirit, the original Greek term translated as "fruit" is singular, signifying that there is one fruit with nine attributes. Throughout the Bible, the righteous are likened to trees,[Prov. 11:30] and in Galatians 5 Paul explains what fruit a righteous tree bears. Accordingly, this "fruit" is grown by those who have truly repented and become followers of Jesus[Matt. 3:8] and correspond with God's divine personality worked into the Christian human spirit.[2] It is arguable whether one who does not bear this fruit is truly a Christian.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
—Galatians 5:22-23
​

There is nothing in the Word that equates these fruit with God. They are said to be attributes of Jesus life while he was on earth.

These are attributes that the followers of Christ should have.

 

[Mickiel]

I guess we must see it differently. You know what has helped me a lot in understanding scripture? A parrallel bible. Where more than one Bible version is shown side-by-side.

A fruit of the spirit is what good things are produced in us (humans) through our walking with God. I don't think I have ever heard someone say that God would have to also experience the fruit of the spirit? That is more than a little off base, IMHO. And God of course can be grieved, but long suffering? I don't think you should make assumptions like that that are not in the Word. God is holy. We cannot automatically account something that is for us as being the same for Him. It is not the Spirit, but fruit (meaning outcome in us) from walking with the Spirit. Two very different things.

Him not flooding the earth does not mean He was deprived of His will, how? It is important in the fact that He made a covenant with us not to do that again.

I hope you find what you are seeking to find. I'm not sure it exists though.

This is almost like saying that God does not have his own Spirit. The fruits of his Spirit, only means the evidence it is there, and its in God without limit. God is a Spirit, he is THE Spirit, he IS the Fruits OF THE Spirit! God IS Goodness, he IS Love, he IS Peace, and so on. It is impossible to separate God from the fruits of his own Spirit! And then claim its a human thing, which only we experience.

And oh yes, God does suffer, his suffering is his experience with humans and dealing with satan and evil, these are things God does not like, but they would not exist, if he did not allow it, in that manner, he suffers. Because those things are a vital part of the plan of salvation, even Jesus had to suffer; goodness, all of us must suffer; WHY, because its God's will!

If God could have brought us into his Kingdom without us living in flesh first, without us being exposed to sin and evil, IF he could have done it in a better possible way, then he would have! God is super wise and intelligent, if he did something in a certain way, then it could NOT have been done in a better way.

 

[Mickiel]

Nope that is incorrect.

There is nothing in the Word that equates these fruit with God. They are said to be attributes of Jesus life while he was on earth.

These are attributes that the followers of Christ should have.

Okay, list me ANY fruit of the Spirit that is NOT in God? Or does not accurately describe him.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

This is almost like saying that God does not have his own Spirit. The fruits of his Spirit, only means the evidence it is there, and its in God without limit. God is a Spirit, he is THE Spirit, he IS the Fruits OF THE Spirit! God IS Goodness, he IS Love, he IS Peace, and so on. It is impossible to separate God from the fruits of his own Spirit! And then claim its a human thing, which only we experience.

And oh yes, God does suffer, his suffering is his experience with humans and dealing with satan and evil, these are things God does not like, but they would not exist, if he did not allow it, in that manner, he suffers. Because those things are a vital part of the plan of salvation, even Jesus had to suffer; goodness, all of us must suffer; WHY, because its God's will!

If God could have brought us into his Kingdom without us living in flesh first, without us being exposed to sin and evil, IF he could have done it in a better possible way, then he would have! God is super wise and intelligent, if he did something in a certain way, then it could NOT have been done in a better way.

Well, in case you didn't read the definition, it is clear that there is a biblical term called fruit of the Spirit. Believe it or not. This fruit is produced in us, not God. Believe it or not.

Since you are getting snarky, I'll let you answer your own question. Maybe you posted it to take people's time and then give snarky retorts when you didn't hear what you believe.

It may do you well to not believe that you know it all and actually seek to learn or find.

It is very low level knowledge what the fruit of the Spirit is and the fact that you think they are talking about God is a HUGE giveaway that you have no idea what it means.

So, again good luck. Seek to learn or at least substantiate your own belief.

Go out and spend an hour on Google and come back. Then you can apologize to me. Thanks.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Okay, list me ANY fruit of the Spirit that is NOT in God? Or does not accurately describe him.

You seem to know already. I'll let someone else spend their time and get BARKED at.