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Should they challenge me?

swdee

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Hi, I was brought up in the church and believed in Jesus wholeheartedly for over 20 years. But then I decided to study the existence of Jesus because I was always tought by the church that there was loads of evidencefor Jesus, more evidence than Julius Ceaser.
But what I discovered, to my absolute shock - after 6 months of in-depth research, was that there wasn't any evidence at all! That it was an allegorical myth copying the pagan myths of a dying and resurrecting godman.

Now to my question. I still wholeheartedly believe in God because all this couldn't have been an accident, and so I often go to church to praise God. And to meet people. The peope I know most in the church know what I think about Jesus yet no-one questions me about it.
It's not as if I'm argumentative I'm a friendly fellow and would happily have a peaceful discussion, as I did initially with some of them
But it's been a couple of years now and everything ticks along in church as normal but I am disconcerted that no-one seems to care or seem concerned what I think.
No-one ever talks to me about it or challenges me.
Should they?
 

heron

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Well, I have just lost my posts twice trying to respond to you -- maybe this has happened to people at church too!

First of all, remember that people have a lot on their minds -- job layoffs, parents with cancer ... while they probably care about you, they know your stance. You seem to be bubbling with information that you want to express. Maybe they are too.

I recognize the theories you are trying to espouse, but it seems you have chosen to ignore some that are widely accepted by neutral and agnostic professionals.

The historian Flavius Josephus is not ignored by historians, and anthropologists, even though some of his writing was clearly tampered with. He was a military commander, governor of Galilee, and extensively educated. He did not promote Jesus' teachings, but wrote about Jesus' following and death... also remarked that Jesus' followers claimed to have seen Him after His burial.

Look also into the writings of Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius.

The Shroud of Turin has been researched by so many neutral scientists that international conferences of scientists and imaging professionals have revolved around the topic. Yes, you will find web sites that say the carbon dating showed it was newer than 30 AD -- the carbon dating sample was later proven to be taken from a mended patch.

Here are some articles -

BROWN, John L. - "Microscopical Investigation of Selected Raes Threads from the Shroud of Turin." (.pdf format) [190k] [January 2005] (Includes 7 photomicrographs and SEM views)

BENFORD, M. Sue and MARINO, Joseph G. - "New Historical Evidence Explaining the ‘Invisible Patch’ in the 1988 C-14 Sample Area of the Turin Shroud" (.pdf format) [44k] [September 2005] (From the 3rd International Dallas Conference)

ACCETTA, August D., M.D.- "Nuclear Medicine and Its Relevance to the Shroud of Turin" (.pdf format) [326k] [August 2000] (From the Sindone 2000 Shroud Conference in Orvieto, Italy) (15 photos) An earlier version of this paper titled, "Experiments with Radiation as an Image Formation Mechanism," was first presented at the June 1999 Richmond Conference.

ALLEN, Nicholas P.L. - Verification of the Nature and Causes of the Photo-negative Images on the Shroud of Lirey-Chambery-Turin* [1995] (Illustrated)

GUERRESCHI, Aldo - Photographic & Computer Studies Concerning the Burn & Water Stains Visible on the Shroud (.pdf format) [536k] [April 2002] (From the IV Symposium Scientifique International du CIELT, Paris, France) (49 photographs and illustrations)

MARINO, Joseph G. and BENFORD, M. Sue - "Evidence for the Skewing of the C-14 Dating of the Shroud of Turin Due to Repairs." (.pdf format) [235k] [August 2000] (From the "Sindone 2000" Orvieto Worldwide Congress) (Includes 8 illustrations)

DANIN, Avinoam - The Origin of the Shroud of Turin From the Near East as Evidenced by Plant Images And By Pollen Grains [June 1998] (Abstract only - from the 1998 Turin Symposium)

BUCKLIN, Robert, M.D., J.D. - The Legal and Medical Aspects of the Trial and Death of Christ [1970]

LATENDRESSE, Mario - “Evidence that the Shroud was not Completely Flat during the Image Formation” (.pdf format) [September 2005] (From the 3rd International Dallas Conference)

http://www.shroud.com/library.htm

The shroud is not proven to be connected with Jesus, but if not Him, then who else would have generated such a blast of light that a photographic image of every wound and blood stain would be printed on the linen.
 
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heron

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Notice what just happened -- you wanted to address the personal side of the issue, and I returned with data.

That is probably what happened at church. People wanted to approach you as a person, and care about what's going on in your life, and you might be responding to their interest with data.

Discussions like this tend to turn into competitions. At some point, they always default to an "I am right and you are wrong" stance. I'd guess that people didn't want to play that game. They just wanted you to feel like you belong there.
 
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Emmy

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Dear swdee. Perhaps they decided not to challenge you, but pray that you might see. Knowing Jesus is a personal joy, and the best challenge you could have, swdee, why don`t you ask Jesus yourself? He died for us, He reconciled us to God, He vanquished Satan and Death, and without Christ, there would not be this wonderful relationship, thousands of Christian men and = women, myself included, have. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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HisArrow

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Josh McDowel is an author. he was going to try to prove the Bible wrong but found out it was true and there is evidence for it. You might want o check out one of his books. unfortunately, there are many people in churches that know all about Jesus but have not asked him in their heart and lives. Just not by going to church makes one a christian or a follower of Chriist A person needs Jesus in theior hearts. One can do this thru prayer. Everyone has sinned Romans3:23 And eternal life is a gift from God thru his son Jesus Romans 6:23 To accept this gift ask for ir thru prayer with sincerity of one's heart.
 
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HeavenBoundByBlood

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Hi, I was brought up in the church and believed in Jesus wholeheartedly for over 20 years. But then I decided to study the existence of Jesus because I was always tought by the church that there was loads of evidencefor Jesus, more evidence than Julius Ceaser.
But what I discovered, to my absolute shock - after 6 months of in-depth research, was that there wasn't any evidence at all! That it was an allegorical myth copying the pagan myths of a dying and resurrecting godman.

Now to my question. I still wholeheartedly believe in God because all this couldn't have been an accident, and so I often go to church to praise God. And to meet people. The peope I know most in the church know what I think about Jesus yet no-one questions me about it.
It's not as if I'm argumentative I'm a friendly fellow and would happily have a peaceful discussion, as I did initially with some of them
But it's been a couple of years now and everything ticks along in church as normal but I am disconcerted that no-one seems to care or seem concerned what I think.
No-one ever talks to me about it or challenges me.
Should they?

Brother Swdee,
My heart breaks for you my friend. There was a time that I too struggled with issues of faith regarding the historicity and validity of Christ. I spent years going over Comparative Mythology,Comparative Religion, ( Apparent ) Contradictions,Documentary Hypothesis, Literary Dependence, NT criticism, NT integrity, etc. etc... I would agonize with trying to get my brain to catch up with my heart. My Christian friends would tell me to "just have faith" where as I was unwilling to kick my brain to the curb and "wish" Christianity to be true.
Although it was an extremely lonely and painful journey. I have without a doubt come to the conclusion that Jesus IS just who he and the Bible claims him to be. The copy cat theories are outdated and have been soundly refuted on all fronts. Even to the point where the most respected Athiest's do not trample the ground and dig up the extremely fallible position.
Furthermore, I do care and I am very concerned with how you feel and what you think. When I was a skeptic/borderline Atheist, it was not that my friends did not care...It was just that they were not equipped with the knowledge to handle the questions I raised. I could see their faith being shaken as I inquired about certain aspects and what I regarded at the time Copy Cat Saviour Myths. I eventually stopped questioning them because it broke my heart seeing them struggle with my questions. I played along like all was well while spending 4-5 hours a night in constant study. I eventually realized that the copy cat myths of "Dying and Rising Gods" (e.g. Adonis, Baal (and Hadad), Marduk, Osiris, Tammuz/Dumuzi, Melquart, Eshmun etc. where not as compelling as I originally believed. Mithra, Dionysos, (Hellenistic period Isis/Osirus) Indra, Thor, Horus? Which is the most disturbing to you. Perhaps I can help you.
My dear Brother, I have felt the deep seated pain of uncertainty. Many of us have been there. And perhaps we where allowed to struggle in order for us to be able to assist with someone who is having the same difficulties we once had. Do not give up. An explanation of the copy cat myths is too long to post on here. But if you have a question I would be more than happy to assist you in anyway I can. Keep praying for God to increase your knowledge and faith. I by no means a scholar or "professional". But I am at your service regardless and I am willing to travel this road at your side.
In His Grace,
Tommy
 
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HeavenBoundByBlood

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Don Howell explains the general rationale for the diminishing of this 'borrowing' position [BibSac, V150, #599, Jul 93, p310]:

"At the turn of the 20th century a new approach to Paul was forged by the religionsgeschichtliche Schule, "the History of Religions School." Spawned in Germany, this approach built on the Tübingen dichotomy between Palestinian and Hellenistic Christianity, and found the origins of the more developed Pauline Christology in the mystery religions and pagan cults of the Greek world. The mystery religions of Greece (Eleusian), Egypt (Isis and Osiris), Syria (Adonis), Asia Minor (Cybele), and Rome (Mithras) were researched and mined for parallels with Pauline theology. A dying-rising redeemer god, the exalted kurios, sacramental redemption, initiation into mystic participation in the deity, gnosis, and pneumatic experience were mystery-religion concepts claimed to have conditioned Paul’s thinking.
"Two pioneers in this field were Bousset and Reitzenstein. Bousset argued that the Jesus of the primitive Palestinian church was the eschatological Son of Man, largely derived from Daniel 7:13–14. But in the Greek-speaking Christian communities like Antioch, Jesus was transformed, under the influence of the Hellenistic mystery cults, into the acclaimed kurios. "Behind the personal piety of Paul and his theology there stands as a real power and a living reality the cultic veneration of the kurios in the community." With consummate skill Bousset explored the Hermetic literature, Philo, Gnostic documents, and the cults of Isis, Osiris, and Orphis and discovered "parallels" with Paul’s Christ-mysticism ("in Christ"), doctrine of the Holy Spirit, Christ-Adam theology, cross and sacrament, and the dying-rising Redeemer. Reitzenstein, a philologist and authority on Eastern Gnosticism, researched the second-and third-century Hermetic literature and concluded that Gnostic terminology was the source of Paul’s Christology. Neill, in an extended survey of the History of Religions approach, credits the Harvard scholar Kirsopp Lake with popularizing in America the arguments of German scholars such as Bousset and Reitzenstein .
"The influence of the various religionsgeschichtliche models has greatly diminished in recent decades with the discovery of the Qumran scrolls and wider research in the Jewish materials of the intertestamental (Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha) and New Testament (rabbinical traditions) periods. It is no longer feasible to separate Hellenistic and Jewish influences into two hermetically sealed compartments. Paul’s Jewishness is in the process of being rediscovered. But a more fundamental issue is the entire logic of the comparative religionist methodology which presupposes the apostle to have been an inclusivistic, impressionable absorber of alien ideas rather than the proclaimer of a pure gospel of faith and repentance. As Hunter comments,
They did not stop to consider that their knowledge of these mysteries was really very scanty, that all this amazing transmogrification of the Gospel must have taken place within twenty years, that, if Paul derived his message from his environment, he did what no other missionary has ever done--borrowed his gospel from the people among whom he worked.
And, C.E. Arnold, in his article on Syncretism summarized the current state of scholarship in this way:

"To what extent did the Hellenistic/Roman syncretism influence the development of early Christianity? H. Gunkel and other adherents of the History-of-Religions School argued that it was a major factor. Gunkel, in fact, concluded that, "Christianity is a syncretistic religion" (Gunkel, 95). He argued that the NT was strongly influenced by many foreign religions, but that these beliefs entered Christianity in the first instance through Judaism, which itself was very strongly syncretistic. R. Bultmann spoke of syncretism more often in connection with Hellenistic Christianity, which he sharply distinguished from Jewish Christianity. He noted, "on the whole, one could be tempted to term Hellenistic Christianity a syncretistic structure" (Bultmann, 1.164). For Bultmann the Jewish apocalyptic kerygma of Jesus was combined with the gnostic myth of redemption as Christianity spread to the Gentile world. Like Gunkel, however, he saw Hellenistic Judaism as "in the grip of syncretism" (Bultmann, 1.171) and therefore as the purveyor of these concepts to Christianity.
"The subsequent course of scholarship has effectively dismantled many of the conclusions drawn by the History-of-Religions School. Various studies have demonstrated that there was not one coherent gnostic redeemer myth nor was there a common mystery-religion theology. We have already touched on the fact that Judaism was not the syncretistic religion that some scholars once thought that it was. Now most scholars are reluctant to assume that Gnosticism even existed during the genesis and early development of Christianity.
"The majority of scholars are reaffirming the essential Jewishness of the early Christian movement. The background of various Christian rites, ideas and terms is being illustrated out of the OT and Judaism, in contrast to the previous generation that pointed to gnostic texts and the mystery religions. The background of the Christian practice of baptism, for instance, is now seldom traced to the mystery initiation sacraments of Attis, Adonis or Osiris but to the OT initiation rite of circumcision and the Jewish water purification rituals.
"Gunkel, Bultmann and others clearly undervalued the formative influence of the OT and Judaism for early Christianity. Neither were they sufficiently open to the possibility that the NT writers could use religious language shared by adherents of other religions without adopting the full meaning of that language, as it was understood in other religious contexts. In other words, Christian writers could use the term mystery (e.g., Rev 10:7; Ign. Magn. 9.1; Diogn. 4.6) without implying that Christianity is a mystery religion like the cults of Cybele or Mithras. John could use the image of light (1 Jn 1:5, 7; 2:8, 9, 10) without dependence on a gnostic light-darkness dualism. Both of these terms have long histories of usage in the OT that provide us with the essential conceptual framework for understanding their NT usage. Yet at the same time they are terms that would communicate in a Gentile world, albeit now with a different set of connotations.
"There is also evidence that the apostles and leaders in the early Christian movement made explicit and earnest attempts to resist the syncretistic impulses of the age. For example, when Paul preached in Lystra (Acts 14:8–20), he was faced with an opportunity to make a syncretistic innovation to the gospel. Luke records that after Paul healed a crippled man the people of the city mistook him for Hermes (the messenger of Zeus) and Barnabas for Zeus. Rather than allowing any form of identification with their gods (even the identification of "the living God" with Zeus), Paul takes the bold step of telling them to "turn from these worthless things" to the one God, the Creator (Acts 14:15). Earliest Christianity appears to have made stringent effort to resist the larger cultural trend toward the identification of deities and directed people to the God of Israel, who had now revealed himself in the Lord Jesus Christ.

To illustrate this from one of the alleged examples of borrowing, "washed in the blood of the Lamb" makes perfect sense being seen against the background of OT usage:
"Making robes white with blood is clearly a ritual rather than visual image: sacrificial blood purified utensils for worship in the Old Testament (see comment on Heb 9:21–22), and white was the color of robes required for worship in the New Testament period.

Likewise, the same goes for "sprinkled with the blood of Jesus", which could refer back to either of two OT passages/themes [although the Numbers 19 passage does not have any blood actually in the water of purification]:
"Such an understanding helps explain why obedience precedes rather than follows the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." The latter phrase gives concreteness and vividness to Peter’s brief glance at Christian conversion. "sprinkling with the blood," recalls the Jewish sacrificial system, particularly as seen from a distance or in retrospect by the early Christians. The apparent origin of the (sprinkling) terminology is the ceremony described in Numbers 19 in which ashes from the burning of a red heifer are mixed with water and sprinkled for purification on those who have defiled themselves by contact with a corpse (the phrase "water of sprinkling," occurs repeatedly in Num 19:9, 13, 20, 21 LXX). In Barn. 8, this passage in its entirety is applied to Christ’s redemptive death, its imagery of sprinkling being associated with Jesus’ blood rather than with water and ashes (Barn. 5.1; 8.3; in the NT cf. Heb 9:13–14).
"More significantly, Hebrews uses the same language (where the LXX did not) in connection with the institution of the Mosaic covenant: Moses built an altar at the foot of Sinai, and when he had sacrificed cattle he threw half of the blood against the altar; the other half he put in bowls, and read aloud to the people out of the scroll of the covenant the Lord's commands. When they promised to obey all that the Lord commanded, Moses took the bowls and threw the remaining blood at the people, saying (in the words of Heb 9:20), "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you" (cf. Exod 24:3–8; Heb 9:18–21). In Hebrews, the blood of the covenant poured out by Moses corresponds to the "blood of sprinkling" shed by Jesus, the "mediator of the new covenant" (Heb 12:24; cf. 10:29). The participants in this new covenant are invited to "draw near with a true heart in the full confidence of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse a guilty conscience and having the body washed in pure water" (10:22). Peter lacks the direct reference to Christian baptism (although cf. 3:20), but the close connection between obedience and sprinkling suggests that Exod 24:3–8 is as determinative for his imagery as for that of Hebrews. Without speaking explicitly of a "new covenant" or the "blood of the covenant" (which may in his circles have been reserved for the Eucharist, cf. Mark 14:24; 1 Cor 11:25), Peter relies on language that had perhaps become already fixed among Christians as a way of alluding to the same typology. To "obey" was to accept the gospel and become part of a new community under a new covenant; to be sprinkled with Jesus’ blood was to be cleansed from one's former way of living and released from spiritual slavery by the power of his death (cf. 1:18). Peter’s choice of images confirms the impression that he writes to communities of Gentiles as if they were a strange new kind of Jew.

If you are interested looking more closely into the Copy Cat theories, let me know. I apologize for the length of the post my brothers and sisters, I just figured it was an interesting read.
In His Grace,
~Tommy
 
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Stinker

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Hi, I was brought up in the church and believed in Jesus wholeheartedly for over 20 years. But then I decided to study the existence of Jesus because I was always tought by the church that there was loads of evidencefor Jesus, more evidence than Julius Ceaser.
But what I discovered, to my absolute shock - after 6 months of in-depth research, was that there wasn't any evidence at all! That it was an allegorical myth copying the pagan myths of a dying and resurrecting godman.

Now to my question. I still wholeheartedly believe in God because all this couldn't have been an accident, and so I often go to church to praise God. And to meet people. The peope I know most in the church know what I think about Jesus yet no-one questions me about it.
It's not as if I'm argumentative I'm a friendly fellow and would happily have a peaceful discussion, as I did initially with some of them
But it's been a couple of years now and everything ticks along in church as normal but I am disconcerted that no-one seems to care or seem concerned what I think.
No-one ever talks to me about it or challenges me.
Should they?

So many members of churches behave like those you describe. It is an indication (to me anyway) that they are not converted! The New Testament description of church members would have immediately raced to you to reinforce your faith.

I have checked out a number of churches in and around the city I live and have found that in all of these congregations maybe 2% of the members showed any genuine interest before, during, and after the service, to new comers. Maybe they do not have any genuine interests in each other either since they may not be converted to the Lord.

When one does not keep examining the 4 Gospels, and they keep getting challenged by the savior gods arguments, one's faith can begin to waver. What I have found is to open up the New Testament (red-letter edition helps) and start reading the Gospels. To me, there is just absolutely no way these are man-made! I came across a secularist argument that the reason the Apostle Paul became involved with Christianity and made such a missionary effort, was to spite his Jewish contemporaries because the Jewish high priest refused his hand in marriage to his daughter. All one has to do is read what Paul wrote in the New Testament to see that this argument is ridiculous!
 
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childofGod31

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swdee,

I just wanted to make a quick note: the Bible teaches that you have to believe in Jesus as well as God. (I don't know if you knew that. I am not sure if there is evidence or not, but faith is not really based on evidence.)

God is Holy and cannot accept sinners. The only way He can accept us is IF we come THROUGH Jesus. ONLY if we put Jesus' righteousness on ourselves. Only then are we going to become righteous enough to enter God's presence and worship Him.

Jesus is the one who intercedes for us. Without Jesus, there is no forgiveness from God, only justice: the wages for sin is death.

1JO 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

JOH 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


1JO 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1JO 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

1JO 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,

1JO 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
 
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kamikat

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Is this a new feeling for you? Did you only recently tell them abbout this? Have you gone to speak with the pastor or minister privately? Perhaps they are giving you some room because they don't want to drive you out of the church. Everybody goes through doubts at some point in their lives. "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!". Have you read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel? He was an atheist who was researching the historical Jesus and came to believe during his research. It was very helpful for me when I was going through some doubts.
 
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salida

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swdee--

I'm very surprised that you think there is no evidence at all. Where are you looking?

I strongly suggest that for intellectual information you read Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (this would stand up in a court of law) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest but now a christian). These books arn't about "their opinions" but real facts. They did the research for us.

A website I love is www.reasons.org; it combines faith and belief. The person who started it has a PhD in Chemistry. I'm a scientist myself.

Coming to Christ is a spiritual decision and second an intellectual one.
 
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swdee

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Brother Swdee,
My heart breaks for you my friend. There was a time that I too struggled with issues of faith regarding the historicity and validity of Christ...
Furthermore, I do care and I am very concerned with how you feel and what you think. When I was a skeptic/borderline Atheist, it was not that my friends did not care...It was just that they were not equipped with the knowledge to handle the questions I raised. I could see their faith being shaken as I inquired about certain aspects and what I regarded at the time Copy Cat Saviour Myths...
I by no means a scholar or "professional". But I am at your service regardless and I am willing to travel this road at your side.
In His Grace,
Tommy

I appreciate your concern.
Although I still believe what I do, if more christians had your attitude (ie in my church) then more people would be helped instead of just pushing issues under the carpet pretending they're not there!

Don Howell explains the general rationale for the diminishing of this 'borrowing' position [BibSac, V150, #599, Jul 93, p310]:

...The influence of the various religionsgeschichtliche models has greatly diminished in recent decades with the discovery of the Qumran scrolls and wider research in the Jewish materials of the intertestamental (Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha) and New Testament (rabbinical traditions) periods.
...The background of the Christian practice of baptism, for instance, is now seldom traced to the mystery initiation sacraments of Attis, Adonis or Osiris but to the OT initiation rite of circumcision and the Jewish water purification rituals.

...To illustrate this from one of the alleged examples of borrowing, "washed in the blood of the Lamb" makes perfect sense being seen against the background of OT usage:
"Making robes white with blood is clearly a ritual rather than visual image: sacrificial blood purified utensils for worship in the Old Testament (see comment on Heb 9:21–22), and white was the color of robes required for worship in the New Testament period.

Likewise, the same goes for "sprinkled with the blood of Jesus", which could refer back to either of two OT passages/themes [although the Numbers 19 passage does not have any blood actually in the water of purification]:
"Such an understanding helps explain why obedience precedes rather than follows the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." The latter phrase gives concreteness and vividness to Peter’s brief glance at Christian conversion. "sprinkling with the blood," recalls the Jewish sacrificial system, particularly as seen from a distance or in retrospect by the early Christians. The apparent origin of the (sprinkling) terminology is the ceremony described in Numbers 19 in which ashes from the burning of a red heifer are mixed with water and sprinkled for purification on those who have defiled themselves by contact with a corpse (the phrase "water of sprinkling," occurs repeatedly in Num 19:9, 13, 20, 21 LXX). In Barn. 8, this passage in its entirety is applied to Christ’s redemptive death, its imagery of sprinkling being associated with Jesus’ blood rather than with water and ashes (Barn. 5.1; 8.3; in the NT cf. Heb 9:13–14).
"More significantly, Hebrews uses the same language (where the LXX did not) in connection with the institution of the Mosaic covenant: Moses built an altar at the foot of Sinai, and when he had sacrificed cattle he threw half of the blood against the altar; the other half he put in bowls, and read aloud to the people out of the scroll of the covenant the Lord's commands. When they promised to obey all that the Lord commanded, Moses took the bowls and threw the remaining blood at the people, saying (in the words of Heb 9:20), "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you" (cf. Exod 24:3–8; Heb 9:18–21). In Hebrews, the blood of the covenant poured out by Moses corresponds to the "blood of sprinkling" shed by Jesus, the "mediator of the new covenant" (Heb 12:24; cf. 10:29). The participants in this new covenant are invited to "draw near with a true heart in the full confidence of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse a guilty conscience and having the body washed in pure water" (10:22). Peter lacks the direct reference to Christian baptism (although cf. 3:20), but the close connection between obedience and sprinkling suggests that Exod 24:3–8 is as determinative for his imagery as for that of Hebrews.
~Tommy

I agree with you! Many aspects of christianity are nearly identical to judaism because the outline of the Jesus story is a re-working of the Jewish Old Testament myths which were written by jewish gnostics, so yes that is correct.
But the rest of the story (born of a virgin, miracles, dying and resurrecting, baptism, communion) were copied from the pagan myths.

...What I have found is to open up the New Testament (red-letter edition helps) and start reading the Gospels. To me, there is just absolutely no way these are man-made!
Apart from the fact that they contradict each other.
Read the 2 geneologies at the start of 2 of the gospels for example.

Is this a new feeling for you? Did you only recently tell them abbout this?
I've felt like this for 3 years.

... Have you read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel? He was an atheist who was researching the historical Jesus and came to believe during his research..
I have read it and actually he didn't do any research.
All he did was interview some christians, who obviously are going to have one point of view, and then just believed what they said without question. That's not research.
 
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heron

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I agree with you! Many aspects of christianity are nearly identical to judaism because the outline of the Jesus story is a re-working of the Jewish Old Testament myths which were written by jewish gnostics, so yes that is correct.
Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. Jesus didn't declare an end to Judaism, but a fulfillment of the Law and a new covenant. We use the same scriptures, with the exception of writings after Jesus' birth.

Historians consider the OT as much historical documentation as Hammurabi's Code and Sumerian clay tablets.
 
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