Should there structured prayer time in school? {moved from prayer requests]

[keith99]

That was how it was in the state (public) school that I went to where there was a regular and structured Christian prayer time. Most complaints in Great Britain about the laws that govern these things come from non-religious groups (National Secular Society, British Humanist Association) than come from other religions, who if they do have any qualms, stay much quieter. Not speculative, just telling everyone of my experience in the matter (members of another religion happily joined in). I'm not saying that this attitude would be repeated elsewhere in other countries (the USA for example), but that this is how I have found it.

I have a feeling those secular groups are mainly British by birth, while most of those of other faiths are not. When you are at risk you chose yuor fights carefully. Quiet does not always mean not offended.

However I think a far larger contributer is that at least in my experience such public prayers are fairly generic. The Lords Prayer is a good example. One has to nitpick to find something objectionable to a Jew or Muslim. (I could do it, just blow Our Father all out of proportion and make it a clear referecen to Trinitarian doctrine).

I wonder if other faiths would be as 'understanding' if public prayer ended in "we ask this in Jesus name", or even finer splintering I wonder if there wouldn't be objections from Protestants if the public prayers used Catholic formulas invoking Mary or the Saints?

I tend to think so. Keeping the prayers fairly generic tends to give more than it takes from faith groups.

 

[keith99]

But why bring it up if it's only applicable to one isolated situation?

It is not an isolated situation, it is his experience and was clearly stated as such. My experience echos his, though I have found that when those of faith do object they make their objection in very strong terms.

 

[Kalevalatar]

To show that your suggestion that "religious minorities might take issue with [structured Christian prayer time]" was not necessarily the case. The example from my school was one case, but the fact that religious minorities (in Britain at least) don't take much issue with this is more widespread and not isolated. Any complaints that [British] people hear often come from non-religious groups and not from religious minorities.

Within the context of the whole thread, I thought people might be interested to hear of an occasion when a religious minority has not taken offence but has happily welcomed the time for prayer.

Same here. Just recently, Finnish religious leaders handed the Minister of Education a petition to keep religion in elementary schools. The petition was signed by the two "majority" churches, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland and the Orthodox Church of Finland, but also by all the "Christian minorities", the Catholic Church, the Pentecostal Church, the Finnish Ecumenical Council (which represents, to name a few, the Evangelical Free Church of Finland, the Baptist Union of Finland, the United Methodist Church of Finland, the Anglican Church of Finland, and the Quakers), as well as the Jewish Community of Finland and the Finnish Islamic Council.

The "non-religious" Freethinkers Association are on their own campaigning to take all religion out of education.

 

[TheReasoner]

The "non-religious" Freethinkers Association are on their own campaigning to take all religion out of education.

I think that would be a mistake of rather epic proportions. Religion has played a HUGE role in the formation of our modern day philosophies, ideologies, perceived human rights and so on and so forth. I would argue that you cannot understand the political scene today without an understanding of religion AND it's influence on ideologies, philosophy and so on.

 

[Kalevalatar]

I think that would be a mistake of rather epic proportions. Religion has played a HUGE role in the formation of our modern day philosophies, ideologies, perceived human rights and so on and so forth. I would argue that you cannot understand the political scene today without an understanding of religion AND it's influence on ideologies, philosophy and so on.

Fear not! Won't happen any time soon. The freethinkers are truly a minority -- I'm tempted to say, a fringe element: their membership count for 2010 is 1986, or 0.03 % of the Finnish pop. Not exactly a force to be reckoned with.

 

[TheReasoner]

Fear not! Won't happen any time soon. The freethinkers are truly a minority -- I'm tempted to say, a fringe element: their membership count for 2010 is 1986, or 0.03 % of the Finnish pop. Not exactly a force to be reckoned with.

Good! It would be a shame to ruin that wonderful education system you have going by eliminating something this important.

 

[Phylogeny]

Our local government decided to open sessions up with prayers from nonChristian denominations a while back. The first time a Hindi prayer was offered, people openly walked out.

I guess people's mileage vary. Some are comfortable with certain Christian denominations, others with a monotheist religion, but once you get out of that comfort zone, I notice it makes certain "pro-prayer" people distinctly uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure those same people that walked out were probably very supportive of prayers in school, structured or otherwise, but when they are the ones on the receiving end of a "heathen" religion, they decided it was too offensive.

Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who say they advocate prayers in public schools because they are supportive of religious rights. I only see support for one type of prayer here.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who say they advocate prayers in public schools because they are supportive of religious rights. I only see support for one type of prayer here.

I only ever see support for one type of prayer -- the supporters'.

 

[ACougar]

I think the Churches are doing such a poor job religiously educating people that some people want the public schools to get back involved.

Our local government decided to open sessions up with prayers from nonChristian denominations a while back. The first time a Hindi prayer was offered, people openly walked out.

I guess people's mileage vary. Some are comfortable with certain Christian denominations, others with a monotheist religion, but once you get out of that comfort zone, I notice it makes certain "pro-prayer" people distinctly uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure those same people that walked out were probably very supportive of prayers in school, structured or otherwise, but when they are the ones on the receiving end of a "heathen" religion, they decided it was too offensive.

Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who say they advocate prayers in public schools because they are supportive of religious rights. I only see support for one type of prayer here.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I think the Churches are doing such a poor job religiously educating people that some people want the public schools to get back involved.

Sounds suspiciously Socialist to me -- having the government in charge of what should be privatized.

 

[William_0]

I think the Churches are doing such a poor job religiously educating people that some people want the public schools to get back involved.

And whose fault is that?

 

[ACougar]

I agree that it strikes a poor balance between what should be public and what should be private. I'm a bit too annoyed at the whole socialism boogy man in politics today to call anything socialist other that what is truely socialist.

Sounds suspiciously Socialist to me -- having the government in charge of what should be privatized.

 

[ACougar]

And whose fault is that?

That's a tough question, I think it's normal for any church to struggle during periods of rapid social change. As an institution we have have seen the churches role in society steadily decline for quiet a while now... despite that almost half of Americans still regularly attend churches. I suspect that churches really wouldn't have to think or work too hard to become more relevant in the lives of their members if they consciously decided that's what they want to do. Attempts to enlist the muscle of secular government to push their agenda is a waste of time at best and a potential disaster at worst as corrupt governments begins developing a quid pro quo relationship with church leaders.

 

[William_0]

That's a tough question, I think it's normal for any church to struggle during periods of rapid social change. As an institution we have have seen the churches role in society steadily decline for quiet a while now... despite that almost half of Americans still regularly attend churches. I suspect that churches really wouldn't have to think or work too hard to become more relevant in the lives of their members if they consciously decided that's what they want to do. Attempts to enlist the muscle of secular government to push their agenda is a waste of time at best and a potential disaster at worst as corrupt governments begins developing a quid pro quo relationship with church leaders.

Yeah. If religious education is faltering in churches, the churches need to do something about it. Not the government.