Should there be an Urgency to Fix Education in the U.S.?

[Caliban]

I have observed that many discussion threads on this forum end up discussing education in some form (often off topic). Because of this, I thought it would be helpful to have a discussion specifically relating to education and its perceived positive or negative effects. I want to make the topic broad enough to allow a wide range of ideas and opinions. As long as we stick to the general topic of education, it shouldn't be considered off topic.


Many young people today are struggling to perform well in school. When students do well, it hardly makes the news; but there is increased attention upon the educational attainment of students and their knowledge base.What is your opinion concerning the urgency of the problem?


If interested, please take the poll.


Some stats to consider:


For the First Time: 90% completed High School or More


Nations Report Card—4th Grade Math by State

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Great topic. One problem in education in America is that the students aren't mature enough for the courses they are forced to take.

 

[Caliban]

Great topic. The biggest problem in education in America is that the students aren't mature enough for the courses they are forced to take.

Do you mean psychologically or cognitively mature?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Do you mean psychologically or cognitively mature?

Yes, among other things. 'Militarization' of the school system would help; good breakfast, uniform dress, strict discipline, control of distractions; in the early grades at least.

 

[Caliban]

Yes, among other things.

Are you replying yes to both--as in students are both psychologically and cognitively immature?
Why do you think that?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Are you replying yes to both--as in students are both psychologically and cognitively immature?
Why do you think that?

I edited that post.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Are you replying yes to both--as in students are both psychologically and cognitively immature?
Why do you think that?

I had a course in Civics, in 8th grade. It may as well have been Greek. I got B's, because I had a good memory for political terms. Other than padding my overall grade average it was a total waste.

 

[Caliban]

Yes, among other things. Militarization of the school system would help; good breakfast, uniform dress, strict discipline, in the early grades at least.

I agree, but would not use the term militarization as it has negative connotations relating to the use of force--maybe you mean uniformity.
Uniforms and meals are positive trends in education.
I am not sure I agree with strict discipline--the studies point in the opposite direction.

 

[Caliban]

I had a course in Civics, in 8th grade. It may as well have been Greek. I got B's, because I had a good memory for political terms. Other than padding my overall grade average it was a total waste.

Often education is not about memorization of small details and facts, but categorical learning. For example: maybe you forget that Pennsylvania did not want to participate in the American Revolution at first, but you now have categorical knowledge of the American Revolution and that it took some compromise to form a new nation. The details are not as important as knowing the broad categories and being able to look it up later if needed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Some stats to consider:


For the First Time: 90% completed High School or More

A high school diploma has little value in obtaining a good job. It's greatest value, it seems, is that it allows you into college more easily.

 

[Caliban]

A high school diploma has little value in obtaining a good job. It's greatest value, it seems, is that it allows you into college more easily.

That is because it is considered a basic achievement. A high school diploma is not a way to distinguish oneself from others. A young person today needs advanced degrees for that. We have moved into an intellectual economy--that requires higher education.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree, but would not use the term militarization as it has negative connotations relating to the use of force--maybe you mean uniformity.
Uniforms and meals are positive trends in education.
I am not sure I agree with strict discipline--the studies point in the opposite direction.

I have experienced civilian and military education. Military education methods are far superior. As one of my instructors insisted, "You will learn this stuff".
And learn we did.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is because it is considered a basic achievement. A high school diploma is not a way to distinguish oneself from others. A young person today needs advanced degrees for that. We have moved into an intellectual economy--that requires higher education.

High school has been dumbed down over the decades, making college almost necessary. Sadly even college has been dumbed down as well. A Master's Degree is almost a necessity today. When will it end?

 

[Caliban]

I have experienced civilian and military education. Military education methods are far superior. As one of my instructors insisted, "You will learn this stuff". And learn we did.

I have as well. I used to teach basic firefighting in the Navy to enlisted personnel and officers. They were motivated to learn because they were adults who wanted to advance their career. That model will not work on the broad level of public education. It may work in small private schools.

 

[Caliban]

High school has been dumbed down over the decades, making college almost necessary. It's a conspiracy to promote costly colleges.

I don't think it has. Since the advent of the Common Core standards, the expectations of students have increased a lot. Here is a link to the 11th and 12 grade ELA California State Standards.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have as well. I used to teach basic firefighting in the Navy to enlisted personnel and officers. They were motivated to learn because they were adults who wanted to advance their career. That model will not work on the broad level of public education. It may work in small private schools.

I raised and trained a hunting dog, and made the mistake of starting her too early, against the advice of the experts. You let the dog be a puppy until he/she wants to be with you more than it wants to chase butterflies. One year old (age seven in human years) is advised. We are starting our kids formal education way too young. Parents should be preparing their kids to learn, not just to 'go to school'.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't think it has. Since the advent of the Common Core standards, the expectations of students have increased a lot. Here is a link to the 11th and 12 grade ELA California State Standards.

Interesting. Sounds like a guide for forensic argument. Can you provide an example of such writing?

 

[Caliban]

I raised and trained a hunting dog, and made the mistake of starting her too early, against the advice of the experts. You let the dog be a puppy until he/she wants to be with you more than it wants to chase butterflies. One year old (age seven in human years) is advised. We are starting our kids formal education way too young. Parents should be preparing their kids to learn, not just to 'go to school'.

I agree in part. Some Scandinavian schools do not begin until the child is seven years old--they experience excellent results. However, all the scientific research and data suggests that in American schools, time is essential. Especially for underprivileged children, early education is vital. My own kids could read before kindergarten and were farther along that their peers when entering school. My oldest, in fact, is almost a year behind her classmates and is the top student in her entire class now (fifth grade). Some students would benefit from a late start, some early. The problem is that is difficult to individualize an educational place for each student. American schools are not that well funded and teachers are already overworked.

 

[Caliban]

Interesting. Sounds like a guide for forensic argument. Can you provide an example of such writing?

Here is a sample response from a poem students analyzed (11th Grade ELA):
Covers standards:
CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.WHST.11-12.1.A
CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.WHST.11-12.1.C
CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.WHST.11-12.1.D
CCSS.ELA-LITERACY.WHST.11-12.2

Inferring Meaning in the Poem Kinship


The meaning of stanza 5 is that moving from an ancestral home is different for the narrator’s mother and father. Their mother moved fora better life and the father moved to escape the atrocities in Ukraine. Between stanza 1 and 4, the narrator writes, “ ...the violence in the Ukraine, which dad’s parents had to flee forever, leaving all their loved ones behind….when I asked my Ukrainian-Jewish-American grandma about her childhood in a village near snowy Kiev, all she reveals is a single memory of ice-skating on a frozen pond.” The demonstrates the two sides of the parent’s past, the father faced hardship and violence in which he had to escape as an attempt of ensuring their immediate family’s safety. The mother’s past ancestors can have fond memories of their home, but immigrated, most likely not to escape from violence, but to ensure them a better future. The difference between immigration and escape involves the fear and threat of violence and the abandonment of the native home and culture.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree in part. Some Scandinavian schools do not begin until the child is seven years old--they experience excellent results. However, all the scientific research and data suggests that in American schools, time is essential. Especially for underprivileged children, early education is vital. My own kids could read before kindergarten and were farther along that their peers when entering school. My oldest, in fact, is almost a year behind her classmates and is the top student in her entire class now (fifth grade). Some students would benefit from a late start, some early. The problem is that is difficult to individualize an educational place for each student. American schools are not that well funded and teachers are already overworked.

If schools can fail students and place them with younger kids to repeat they can also move more gifted kids ahead. The only problem I see is the insistence on age-uniformity.