Should the minimum wage be hiked?

Christopher0121 · Jul 11, 2019

blackribbon said:
Minimum wage jobs are entry level jobs. They are not intended to support a family. They are not intended to support an individual with a life of luxuries like a cell phone, cable, and a nice car. A couple could get by with a spartan life style with TWO minimum wage jobs (one each). A single person can get by with a roommate(s) to share expenses. I have never had a minimum wage job except when I picked one up to make extra money. I had skills at 15 through volunteer work that meant when I qualified to work at 16, I didn't start at minimum wage. Neither of my college kids make minimum wage. My daughter started at $12 an hour at 16 for the same reason I had. My son worked minimum wage because it was entry level and he wanted to work his way up. None of their jobs require more than a high school diploma in spite of their college.

You and I know that these are supposed to be entry level jobs. However, the reality is that an increasing number of older people, parents, and even college graduates are landing minimum wage jobs. Just walk through a local Burger King or Taco Bell. At least half of the staff are not entry level workers. They are mothers, fathers, and even grandparents. Many of them are making minimum wage, and some working just above minimum wage which provides minimum budgetary impact against the cost of living. The individuals I mentioned I know personally. Another trend in these McJobs is that they work you just under full time, which allows them to not have to provide any benefits or medical insurance.

A lot of people have a main job that pays a little above minimum wage, but even that wage isn't enough to make ends meet with the cost of living in some places, so they also work at McDonald's or Taco Bell as a second job because of the flexibility to make ends meet. I know an Assistant Manager of a Pet Store that only makes $9.50 an hour. She works at Lucent VR for minimum wage to supplement her income because not even $9.50 an hour is enough to sustain a household.

Again, this is very bad for the family and when they are too old to work we will see the rise of shanty towns in America once more.

FenderTL5 · Jul 11, 2019

blackribbon said:
Community college is affordable.

Not for someone working minimum wage.
Today, there is not one U.S. state, metropolitan area, or county in which a minimum wage worker who clocks 40 hours a week can afford a two-bedroom apartment.
Community college is an expense too far when you can't pay for housing, and food, and transportation.

Christopher0121 · Jul 11, 2019

Even the idea that minimum wage jobs should be "entry level" is technically hogwash. The President who helped establish the minimum wage, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, stated:

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

The minimum wage was intended to be a bare minimum living wage.

98cwitr · Jul 11, 2019

You hike the minimum wage, the markets respond by raising prices. It's a form of artificial inflation.

$15 Minimum Wages Will Substantially Raise Prices

Archivist · Jul 11, 2019

miamited said:
Hi archivist,

Having been born and raised in WV, it is my testimony that WV has always, much like Mississippi, been a depressed state as far as wages and worker rights and safety. One might wonder if it isn't the fear of just raising the wages and making businesses work to pay their employees that is the root of that problem.

Why are WV and MS always on the bottom, by far, of state rankings for such things as wages and opportunities? Is it really that the people are just not bright or that the government doesn't just go ahead and force businesses to treat their employees fairly on this issue of wages. I know for a fact that many of WV's governors and state line leaders have been pretty corrupt. I don't know if that's changed, but it could well be something that has always kept the average person in that state down.

You see, as I understand it, the only reason that a business that is expected to pay a fair wage would go out of business is because their business model is to undercut the competition. I mean if this widget maker in Wisconsin can pay its employees $12/hr and sell its product for a profit, why can't the WV business? If the WV business closes its doors, then everyone in WV will be forced to buy their widgets from the Wisconsin supplier who's paying better wages. If they can afford to buy their widgets from the Wisconsin supplier who's paying better wages, then why can't they buy their widgets from the WV supplier who also pays reasonably equivalent wages?

I've honestly never really understood the argument that raising wages across the board would put businesses out of business. If everyone is playing by the same rules then one business, because it's located in a different part of the country, shouldn't have a particularly great advantage over another business that is doing the same thing.

WV, as I've understood it, has a couple of significant problems. One is that they've never put much value in raising the skill level of their people. Two is that they've had real problems with corrupt government. They have for many, many years allowed big business to run the show and big business has always kept the employees unsafe and underpaid, if they could get away with and WV government allows them to get away with it.

My father owned an insurance agency in S. Charleston until he died some 20 years ago. He tried to entice me to come to work with him and I flat out told him that I had no intention of ever moving to a state like WV. God has blessed it with great natural beauty and so it is a wonderful place to visit. But, to live there? Not in my lifetime.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Yes, the minimum wage in WV needs to be increased. I just don’t think smaller businesses here are in a position to make a jump to $15/hour as has been done elsewhere. Example, a Reuben sandwich is $8.00 at Mountain State Brewing in Morgantown. The same sandwich is $12 at Pyramid Brewing in Seattle. Can Morgantown increase to Seattle-level wages without raising prices? Probably not. So prices either increase or businesses close, and if prices increase they may close anyway.

BTW, the Reuben at Mountain State is excellent!

Archivist · Jul 11, 2019

miamited said:
Hi OWG,

I was raised in Huntington WV and I was surprised to see a doc on netflix that showed that Huntington was one of the highest rated cities in the country for drug overdoses. Yes, another statistic that I saw showed that both Huntington and Charleston WV are ranked pretty much dead last in 'well being' of the people. They both have a very, very high rate of depression, according to the study. In this study, done only last year: Healthiest & Unhealthiest Cities in America Huntington came in 170th out of 174.

As a stand alone city that wouldn't be terrible, but that rating pretty much stands for the whole state, as your evidence shows. Living in poverty is depressing. I've traveled through some of the 'hollers' in WV and you see people with nothing to do but sit out on their porches and buildings are dirty, grimy dingy things. Trash is everywhere. There just isn't any enduring 'happiness' in the people.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

In West Virginia’s defense, there are parts of the state that are doing very well. The Morgantown area, home of WVU, is a major pharmaceutical and education town. The eastern panhandle is likewise doing well. It is the rest of the state, southern WV and the western panhandle, that is an economic disaster.

miamited · Jul 11, 2019

Hi archivist,

Thanks for the recommendation. I've never been to Morgantown. My father, as a representative for Celina insurance 40 years ago has been in that area a number of times, but as I said, he's long dead now.

I do agree with you that $15/hr across the board nationwide is not a wise amount. That should be for local municipalities or states to choose. I, like you, am just considering that $7.75 is just too low and out of touch with the reality of the cost of living.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

miamited · Jul 11, 2019

Archivist said:
In West Virginia’s defense, there are parts of the state that are doing very well. The Morgantown area, home of WVU, is a major pharmaceutical and education town. The eastern panhandle is likewise doing well. It is the rest of the state, southern WV and the western panhandle, that is an economic disaster.

Hi archivist,

Not having been to the state since my father's funeral, and only then for a short 3 day stay in S. Charleston, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the state of WV economy. All I know, as far as current situation, is what I read about it. However, I'm not familiar with a 'western' panhandle. I know there's an eastern one that bounds against Maryland and the northern 'chimney' that squeezes between PA and OH. which is where, I believe, Morgantown and Wheeling are situated. When I lived in Huntington and Charleston, I don't remember any of that area being called a panhandle.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Archivist · Jul 11, 2019

miamited said:
Hi archivist,

Not having been to the state since my father's funeral, and only then for a short 3 day stay in S. Charleston, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the state of WV economy. All I know, as far as current situation, is what I read about it. However, I'm not familiar with a 'western' panhandle. I know there's an eastern one that bounds against Maryland and the northern 'chimney' that squeezes between PA and OH. which is where, I believe, Morgantown and Wheeling are situated. When I lived in Huntington and Charleston, I don't remember any of that area being called a panhandle.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Wheeling is in the western panhandle. Morgantown is in the northern part of the state near the PA border, but not near any of the panhandles. The eastern panhandle includes Shephardstown and Romney.

Foxfyre · Jul 11, 2019

miamited said:
Hi foxfyre,

Yes, most of what you said is agreed. Although, I'm wondering who the 'booming employee' is. The fact that most people don't stay at minimum wage long is even more reason to question why it is so low. However, for many, they may stay at minimum wage level for 6 months and that's six months that they'll struggle to support their family. Those in your explanation that apparently aren't 'worth more than minimum wage' may stay at that wage rate for even longer.

For a company to be able to legally pay someone $7.25/hr just seems terribly cheap to me. If most businesses hire on at more than $7.25/hr, then why have it at such a low level? As I said, I'm not much concerned with raising it to $15/hr nationwide, but $7.25 is equally as ludicrous at the other end of the spectrum. In a bad labor market it allows employers to take advantage of their new hires and low skilled labor, even though they're still going to have the same bills to pay.

Further, one other consideration is that the minimum wage hasn't been changed in 10 years and yet the Fed says that healthy inflation is 2%/year. This means that in a healthy economy, according to the Fed, minimum wage workers are constantly losing value in their paychecks. Perhaps we should do the same with minimum wage that we do with COLA adjustments in other cost/pay equations. SS makes COLA adjustments based on some inflationary mark. Why not do the same with minimum wage. Make it a fairly constantly moving value. Say, once every two years the minimum wage is adjusted based on such mark.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

It is the simplest of economics. I'll use one real life example that I believe is probably representative of many circumstances across the land.

The kid had almost no practical experience, no references, had been fired twice before for reasons he wasn't sure why, he would need some training to do the simplest tasks we needed done. But there was something in his eyes, in his bearing that prompted me to give him a chance. "Would you be willing to start and train at minimum wage on a trial basis?" He jumped at the chance.

So even though our budget was strained to the limit, and because that young man would probably be paid more than he would produce for the organization, and he would require time from people who would otherwise use that time more productively, I hired him.

There were some fits and starts and bumps in the road, but within a week or two he was beginning to hold his own. And then he began to shine with talents and ability I don't think he had any clue he had. He didn't stay at minimum wage for long and earned several more raises and a promotion before somebody who could afford to pay him a lot more than I could hired him away from us. With my blessings I might add.

That's why you keep minimum wage low because it helps people to get a foot in the door and prove they are worth more than minimum wage. If I had to start that kid out at $15/hour I never would have taken a chance on him but would have looked for somebody who would earn $15/hour from day one.

miamited · Jul 12, 2019

Hi foxfyre,

Thanks for your response:

Foxfyre said:
It is the simplest of economics. I'll use one real life example that I believe is probably representative of many circumstances across the land.

That's a good story, but please understand that I'm not trying to make a way for people who have screwed up their work record with second chances. Further, you don't seem to have been followiing my position on the matter. I'm actually in agreement with you that a national $15/hr minimum wage is not necessarily a good idea. You'd know that if you'd been keeping up.

I think it's a foregone conclusion that a lot of young people do stupid things. They often don't fully understand the consequences of their actions. However, if you have a price point on your charity, that's your business. I'm not sure that I can justify paying most decent employees minimum wage for start up and low skilled work just because you want to be charitable in giving second chances to one person in the nation.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Foxfyre · Jul 12, 2019

miamited said:
Hi foxfyre,

Thanks for your response:

That's a good story, but please understand that I'm not trying to make a way for people who have screwed up their work record with second chances. Further, you don't seem to have been followiing my position on the matter. I'm actually in agreement with you that a national $15/hr minimum wage is not necessarily a good idea. You'd know that if you'd been keeping up.

I think it's a foregone conclusion that a lot of young people do stupid things. They often don't fully understand the consequences of their actions. However, if you have a price point on your charity, that's your business. I'm not sure that I can justify paying most decent employees minimum wage for start up and low skilled work just because you want to be charitable in giving second chances to one person in the nation.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Jesus was pretty clear in one of his parables that those who agree to work for a given wage should not complain when others agree to work for a different wage. (He was actually referring to God's grace as given to the last minute repentant as well as those who lived a lifetime of righteousness, but the principle is the same.)

Nobody forces anybody to go to work for anybody. We have a great President right now that has accomplished an economy in which it is a seller's market for labor. Those who merit higher wages are getting them as currently there are fewer people with training, credentials, qualifications to fill all the vacancies for those jobs.

But if a person is willing to accept a low minimum wage to get a foot in the door to obtain training and experience to merit more money, and/or if the person is someone like me who would work for free if it was allowed to get my foot in the door so I could show an employer what I am worth, what is that to anybody else? How is that anybody else's business?

Many employers, especially mom and pop organizations, can't afford to hire people who won't earn their wages, at least without supervision, for a length of time. But they can often afford a low minimum wage to take a chance on training and qualifying somebody when they wouldn't take that chance at a higher wage. And those opportunities have put millions of people on the path to a living wage and prosperity.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 13, 2019

DavidPT said:
What is the point of raising it to $15 if we still have 10 million plus illegals still here who will take those same jobs for half of that?

They take a chance on getting busted if they hire someone without a tax number. People are required to pay their taxes. The women I bought my house from did not pay her taxes and she had 15 people working for her. The government use to send people out here banging on my door looking for her. I had a landlord once he had to pay over $200,000 in back taxes. That was money he was suppose to withhold and was responsible to pay it even though he did not collect it.

DavidPT · Jul 13, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
They take a chance on getting busted if they hire someone without a tax number. People are required to pay their taxes. The women I bought my house from did not pay her taxes and she had 15 people working for her. The government use to send people out here banging on my door looking for her. I had a landlord once he had to pay over $200,000 in back taxes. That was money he was suppose to withhold and was responsible to pay it even though he did not collect it.

The trade I learned, I learned that in Houston around 1980. Even back then the illegals were already here and doing some of these same trades. And they are still here some 40 years later still doing some of these same trades. I don't recall one time when anyone ever got into trouble for hiring an illegal without a tax number. I don't doubt what you say though. I'm not questioning that. My point would be that maybe that happens in one case out of a million, while the other 999,999 times people are hiring illegals without tax numbers, and that no one seems to be doing anything about it.

archarios · Jul 13, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 13, 2019

DavidPT said:
What is the point of raising it to $15 if we still have 10 million plus illegals still here who will take those same jobs for half of that? I learned a trade in 1980 and can't recall how many times I got underbid on jobs that should have been mine first, by illegals. That aside. The last job I had the man I was working for, he was paying me $20 an hour. Even though I have made far more than $20 an hour before, meaning when I was subcontracting, I still felt $20 an hour was a decent wage at the time. And if they raise the min to $15, it basically means I was barely making above min wage at the time.

Great point. In suddenly bumping everyone up to $15 they make $20+hr jobs seem less worth having put in the time for. As for Amazon, I wouldn't work for them for $50hr. But at $15hr they are creating trouble for the big courier companies re: new hires. Why work THAT hard for 2-3bucks more an hour? Problem for Amazon workers is they are expendable and basically have no solid future there.

DavidPT · Jul 13, 2019

archarios said:
If you dont fix that typo, your opponents are going to ignore the points you make to focus solely on that.

LOL at myself. And the funny thing about it, in high school, math is what I got the best grades in at the time.

Sparagmos · Jul 14, 2019

GOD Shines Forth! said:
Great point. In suddenly bumping everyone up to $15 they make $20+hr jobs seem less worth having put in the time for. As for Amazon, I wouldn't work for them for $50hr. But at $15hr they are creating trouble for the big courier companies re: new hires. Why work THAT hard for 2-3bucks more an hour? Problem for Amazon workers is they are expendable and basically have no solid future there.

It has been stated repeatedly that no one is proposing an immediate jump to $15/hr. It’s always done incrementally.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jul 14, 2019

Sparagmos said:
It has been stated repeatedly that no one is proposing an immediate jump to $15/hr. It’s always done incrementally.

I just did a comparison of pieces from CNN, Vox and USA Today and they stated Bezos wanted this quickly. The OP did mention Amazon, and they don't qualify as "no one". The full timers have been getting $15hr. already. This new rate is for part-timers and temp agency hires (incl. seasonal hires). The plan is to add ONE bonus buck to the full timers' hourly rate. Gee, thanks a million, Bezos! Amazon will employ smoke, mirrors and sticky tape to mitigate against their sudden attack of "generosity".

Newtheran · Jul 14, 2019

mukk_in said:
Here's an interesting piece on WSJ about the possible ramifications of hiking minimum wage to $15 an hour. Amazon had done that and as an investor, I'm OK with it. CBO seems to suggest that many jobs would be lost as well. I believe all the 2020 Democrats are big on this. What do you folks think?

Links:

$15 Minimum Wage Would Bring Mixed Fortunes for U.S. Workers

A $15 minimum wage could lift 1.3 million out of poverty — and cost 1.3 million jobs

Labor is a market, like any other. When you have an oversupply of labor, prices go down. When you have an undersupoly of labor, prices go up.

The classical response would be that we should have no minimum wage and that the market should set wage rates.

The reason this is false is our current immigration policies where hundreds of thousands of new units of labor (speaking in economic terms) enter the country every month.

This artificially depresses the labor rates markets would set and thereby creates a corporate subsidy with respect to the labor market.

So until we can reform our immigration laws in such a way that only capital can enter the country, there is really no legitimate economic argument against a minimum wage.

Should the minimum wage be hiked?

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