Should Schools Teach Evolution as Fact?

[DialecticMaterialist]

Who has accredited ICR, I'd like proof of that. And for what have they been accredited? You speak of Astrophysics guys, but what does that have to do with evolution?

That's like a linguist speaking on surgery.

 

[Drotar]

http://www.icr.edu/accreditation.html


TRACS has been approved by the U.S. Department of Education.

Actually, check the whole site. The four links above are the four types of degrees you can get.

 

[Arikay]

How very sad. I wonder what happens when their students try to actually go out and get a job that requires knowledge of biology and evolution?

I did notice that they arent actually dirrectly accredited but TRACS is recognized by the US gov and then TRACS gave their accrediditation to ICR.

http://www.icr.edu/accreditation.html


TRACS has been approved by the U.S. Department of Education.

Actually, check the whole site. The four links above are the four types of degrees you can get.

 

[notto]

Taking down guys like me and the others should almost ruin the honor in debating this. We're jokes. Hey, I'll admit it. I haven't started college yet, but when I graduate with a doctorate from ICRGS, and one in philosophy from DTS, maybe I'll come back and take a peek. It'll be 8 years minimum. But, I won't be asking questions anymore.

ICR doesn't offer doctorates, they offer masters degrees in general sciences.

The agency that gave them there Accreditation has no standards related to science or science programs and is based purely on religious tenents that the schools must adhere to.

At the time of their accreditation, Henry Morris was Chairman of TRACS’ Board of Directors.

The ICR accreditation says nothing about the quality of their science education. Typically, a school is accredited by an agency that deals specifically with a subject area or program area. Based on ICR's accreditation, the only assumption one can make is that they are a Christian school that adheres to religioius tenets that make a statement that regardless of evidence, their science is true, an assumption that would lead one to believe that their science education is biased.

 

[Jet Black]

It's a graduate school, meaning that they're doctors. The school is also accredited, so it's the real thing. These doctors, 82 right now, are not jokes. They're not the guys like Hovind who publish anti-evolution books for the ignorant. They have real laboratory equipment and studies. Especially the Geology and Astrophysics guys.

The problem is, that if there were any big problems with the models, the scientific method by it's very nature would have exposed them by now, like it does with all the various hoaxes and so on that we see from time to time.

 

[LorentzHA]

It's a graduate school, meaning that they're doctors. The school is also accredited, so it's the real thing.

No, "grad school" does not mean that you are a doctor. Grad school simply means school after your Baccalaureate degree...usually meaning masters level which you have to take the GRE to get into most masters level programs. I have an aquaintence that went to Grad School for Substance abuse counseling, she would be shocked to hear she is a Doctor, consider she has a masters degree.

Example of grad school degrees MBA, Architects, (neither of these professions would be doctors... and many more. Architecture is considered a professional degree because it is beyond a Baccalaureate, but far from being a Dr.

To receive a "Doctorate" you have to attend school beyond Masters level (typically-not always though-there are exceptions) and complete a Doctoral thesis, Ph.D., for example is after Masters level. Med. School requires Baccalaureate degree plus completion of core requirements before application/admission.

 

[LorentzHA]

The agency that gave them there Accreditation has no standards related to science or science programs and is based purely on religious tenents that the schools must adhere to..

This is true notto. A degree from a non-accredited College or University is worthless. The reason schools are accredited is for this very reason! Accreditation means, The College or University follows core curriculums, meaning, Physics 101 at University of Michigan is the same concepts and equations taught in Physics 101 at UCLA. They are guideline minimum standards. If there was not accreditation anyone could open a "school", take students money, teach basic (high school level) science, put a religious spin on it and give a degree that is not worth the paper it is printed on in the real world, hence, religion teaching watered down science to validate their belief system. My advice to Drotar would be : Go to a real University, major in Chemistry, Biology, Physics, etc. while still practicing your faith. You will find it will strengthen your belief in a creator but you may start to look at your own belief systems and turn it upside down for the first time ever to see what is underneath (like I did). Plus, a University setting is nice. You get to meet people from everywhere and compare and contrast beliefs and belief systems. For the first time realize that what makes yours "the one" is not because it is the one you are a member of. Surrounding yourself with people exactly like yourself, especially in undergrad, is the recipe for a narrow mind.

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

I would be careful about quoting that particular SciAm article.
1. It was an opinion piece.
2. It unfortunately was very colored by the author's own faith -- atheism -- and does incorrectly paint both evolution and science as atheism.

Um, no.

Atheism isn't "faith" lucaspa.

Why are you trying to make it one?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Um, no.

Atheism isn't "faith" lucaspa.

Why are you trying to make it one?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (I've seen lucaspa debate this before... trust me, you don't want to get into it. Just back away slowly... don't run... slowly... slowly...)

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (I've seen lucaspa debate this before... trust me, you don't want to get into it. Just back away slowly... don't run... slowly... slowly...)

Sure I do. That's why I brought it up. As an atheist, I do happen to know just a teensy little bit about it.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Sure I do. That's why I brought it up. As an atheist, I do happen to know just a teensy little bit about it.

Have you seen him debate atheism is faith before? It ain't pretty, let me tell you...

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

Have you seen him debate atheism is faith before? It ain't pretty, let me tell you...

No, I haven't.

(If you have a link to a previous debate on it, perhaps it would save a lot of time...)

Besides, atheism isn't faith, so I am interested to hear a case that it is.

 

[Gracchus]

cre·tin·ism (kr¶t"n-¹z"…m) n. A congenital condition caused by a deficiency of thyroid hormone during prenatal development and characterized in childhood by dwarfed stature, mental retardation, dystrophy of the bones, and a low basal metabolism. Also called congenital myxedema.

"Like most cretinists"? You think he has a thyroid problem?

cre·tin
Pronunciation: 'krE-t&n
Function: noun
Etymology: French crétin, from French dialect cretin, literally, wretch, innocent victim, from Latin christianus Christian
Date: 1779
1: one afflicted with cretinism
2: a stupid, vulgar, or insensitive person : clod, lout
- cre·tin·ous /-t&n-&s/ adjective
Merriam-Webster Dictionary http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary 9/06/03


I leave it to others to explain how the word that meant "Christian" came to designate a stupid, vulgar or insensitive person.

 

[Jet Black]

Um, no.

Atheism isn't "faith" lucaspa.

Why are you trying to make it one?

it is a belief, since an atheist believes that there isn't a God. the best thing to do here is circumlocue and use lots of words to exlpain your position. my favourite three are:

"I don't know."

that way no-one gets to accuse me of having a faith, though of course I have to have some faith in the most basic axioms such as "existance exists" and "I am" and "the universe is understandable"

 

[bagfullofsnakes]

it is a belief, since an atheist believes that there isn't a God. the best thing to do here is circumlocue and use lots of words to exlpain your position. my favourite three are:

"I don't know."

that way no-one gets to accuse me of having a faith, though of course I have to have some faith in the most basic axioms such as "existance exists" and "I am" and "the universe is understandable"

Lucaspa didn't say "belief", he said "faith", and it was used in a context that seemed to allude that it was equivalent to a religious sort of faith.

And it isn't, and it doesn't.

Furthermore, think of it this way Jet... each human is born an atheist. That is, every child is born without theistic belief. Theistic belief must be learned, whereas atheism is default. So, to say that a newborn baby has "faith" that there is no god, or even "believes" that there is no god is ridiculous.

I don't believe in god in the same way that I don't believe in invisible, pink, Unicorns. Just because somebody can imagine it, doesn't put them in a position where I should say, "Well, perhaps you've got a point there? Perhaps there are invisible, pink, Unicorns...?"

Atheism doesn't claim to know there isn't a god, it is simply a lack of belief in one. Although, it is absolutely certain that the Christian god does not exist. Logical impossibilities, and all that.

 

[Steve_Graham]

Hi JohnR7,

I have read your posts regarding Rev. Ernest Angley. I live in Atlanta, GA and I first saw him on TV in 1989. I was 20 years old then. He stayed on TV for maybe a year or two and then his show was no longer shown here. And then earlier this year he came back on. I have watched him almost every Sunday morning and I must admit I think he is a true Prophet of God. God has endowed him with so many gifts. I'm sure these gifts were given to him because of his obedience to God. He never takes claim of any of the miracles. It's my understanding that he lives a very modest life and doesn't use the money for anything but trying to reach the lost. IMO, he is a true Christian who does not comprise the word of God for popularity.

Don't believe Siliconaut's lies. First of all Rev. Angley does not do the healing and the miracles, God does. Second of all, there is no money involved AT ALL in the healing and the miracles. It is free of charge.

There are people who would pay huge amounts of money to the doctors if they could get the healing they get for free from God.

Rev. Angley prays for people toward the end of the service, after he has preached his sermon. He takes up a offering before he preaches a sermon, for missions. People continue to lie against him, and claim that he steals the missions money and puts it in his pocket. That is just not true.

As far as the offering for the running of the church, what they usually call the tithe. The pastors do not take up that offering. The choir members take turns taking up the tithe offering.

The tithe offering, and the love offering for missions is two seperate offering. One goes to pay the bills on the church. Our gas bill in the winter can run as high as $30,000. The offering for missions is used to help people over seas. In Africa for the most part.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Sure I do. That's why I brought it up. As an atheist, I do happen to know just a teensy little bit about it.

And a very teensy bit it is too. Faith simply means something you believe without proof. Hence, when you vote for a candidate you have faith that he will do a better job then his opposition. You have faith that god does not exist, because you have no proof. Lucapsa can explain it to you more thoroughly (I borrowed some of his arguements to save him time).

Edit: I'd rather say a newborn is agnostic, i.e. he/she has no opinion on the matter. If you want to disagree with this, then give me video evidence of a newborn saying "there is no god."

 

[Arikay]

I would say that a new born is also close to weak atheism. A lack of belief or without belief of god. So, not only does the new born, not know if god is real or not, but it has never even heard the concept of god before.

Very few atheists say "there is no god" and leave it at that.

And a very teensy bit it is too. Faith simply means something you believe without proof. Hence, when you vote for a candidate you have faith that he will do a better job then his opposition. You have faith that god does not exist, because you have no proof. Lucapsa can explain it to you more thoroughly (I borrowed some of his arguements to save him time).

Edit: I'd rather say a newborn is agnostic, i.e. he/she has no opinion on the matter. If you want to disagree with this, then give me video evidence of a newborn saying "there is no god."

 

[Vintersorg]

A newborn doesent even know what the word God means so how could they be agnostic. Agnostic means a person tells themself that the meaning of God or the Universe is so great, they couldent even begin to fathom it, so therefore they simply dont and go on living their life....I dont believe in a God because of the way the world is. Look around, do you see mercy, do you see grace, do you see happiness. If God is thoes things then why make the human race suffer...Heres the point, no human alive can prove God is real, no human can prove the universe is infinite, and the only think we can be sure of is that we cant be sure of anything at all....period...And if you can prove one of thoes then maybe you arent human at all...

 

[revolutio]

no human can prove the universe is infinite

True because we already proved it is finite.