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Should Schools be Required to Teach Evolution?

Should schools be requires to teach evolution?

  • We should only teach creationism. It's wrong to teach children about evolution.

  • We should only teach evolution. It's wrong to teach children about creationism.

  • It doesn't matter if children learn about creationism, but they should not learn about evolution

  • It doesn't matter if children learn about evolution, but they should not learn about creationism

  • Creationism and evolution should be taught equally.

  • We should not teach children about creationism or evolution.


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AceHero

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The important thing is critical thinking. I'd see that (with the associated logic) as an essential skill that all students should be taught. Not just believing what you're told, but knowing why, and how likely it is that it is true. You could use evolution vs. creationism as a case study, but might as well use phlogiston-theory (that was our example in high school..), flat earth, ether, medicine vs. faithhealers, etc.

This might be part of the problem.

Creationism can be taught in a religious studies class of some sort. However it should only be taught with the stipulation that it's what the Christian religion believes is true, and is not taught as fact. Either way, it certainly has no place in a science class.

Creationism in the confines of a theology classroom should be taught as being only one idea behind how God created the universe. Not every believer thinks that the Bible makes the case for an earth that's only thousands of years old. Unfortunately, the ones who do try to make it seem like the only option, thus making Christianity seem very anti-science.

Tom,

People view science and it's theories differently. Obviously you are more passionate about those that I am not, and that's OK. No, I am not an authority on scientific theory, nor am I an idiot, I realize the good that has come from science. I just choose to not accept science's theory on the origins of life, not because my poor little brain cant take it in, but because my FAITH says otherwise. If that offends you, well, I can't change that, won't even try too.

I share your faith as well, but that doesn't keep me from believing that science is valid.

carole2u said:
I am a Christian, see my little cross? I was raised in a Christian household but didn't accept the belief as my own until 5 years ago. I chose it as personal belief thru experiences and occurrences that have helped me to develope my faith. I am a member of a church but my doctrinal beliefs are based on my own perception of the Bible, not denominational interpretation.
Ok, however many Christians accept Evolution, and many even deny the biblical creation story as that's the way the overwhelming evidence points.

It seems to be perfectly acceptable to accept Evolution and still remain Christian, so that's why I'm asking why you stick to believing a story that odds are very high is just a bronze age myth.

I'm not saying that to try to be insulting, but that's the simple reality of the situation.

I have a little cross by my name as well. I don't feel that Genesis is untrue, but that it's an allegory (akin to Jesus' parables) that tells the story of the creation of the universe and the fall of man. Not simply one man, but all of humankind. Because I believe in evolution, I don't believe that the earth was created in six days, or that Adam and Eve were actual people, but that doesn't weaken my faith in any sense.

Perhaps abiogenesis hasn't been proven yet, but I'm not sure that means we move on to magic. God always gets pushed back, and some religious people say God did the thing we haven't fully understood yet. Then somehow they are surprised when scientists figure it out. Then God gets pushed back further.

How about religious people stop pushing God into a corner and just accept that God set up the world and let it run like clockwork. It really isn't that bad to think God had the intelligence to invent a universe that was capable of creating life in its own. :)

He's the master programmer. :)
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Sorry about the late reply.

Lion Hearted Man said:
Seriously? Biology without evolution is mindless fact recall. "Why does our embryology develop this way?" "It just does!" Completely unsatisfying.

To your specific examples -- evolution has very important things to say about mitochondria and the nervous system. Neuroanatomy is a complete mystery if you seal off the evolutionary tie-ins!
We can understand how something works without really know why it works that particular way - I can use a computer but I only have a rudamentary knowledge on how its hardware works.

Besides, even creationists will know how an embryo develops. If anything they might use it as evidence against evolution. What they reject is how we went from egg-laying fish to live birth mammals.

Mystman said:
I'd think that a population with a scientific mindset produces more proper scientists, is less likely to believe in weird conspiracy theories, less likely to go faith healers instead of proper doctors, might make better voting decisions, etc.

The important thing is critical thinking. I'd see that (with the associated logic) as an essential skill that all students should be taught. Not just believing what you're told, but knowing why, and how likely it is that it is true. You could use evolution vs. creationism as a case study, but might as well use phlogiston-theory (that was our example in high school..), flat earth, ether, medicine vs. faithhealers, etc.
I don't think we can so easily divide people into critical-thinking supporters of science and kooks who believe whatever they're told. We'd probably find more of a mix that we expect: evolutionists who are also holocaust denialists or anti-vaccine, and creationists who are also medical doctors or are genuinely concerned about global warming.

Some people accept certain forms of science and reject others,or are able to think critically in one area but not in another. I have no idea why. But I think it's a bit naive to think if we teach them critical thinking skills they will be immune to being duped. If anything intelligent and highly educated people seem to be duped in certain areas more often that less intelligent people.

(BTW, several months ago I made a couple of threads - here and here - asking creationists whether they also believe in flat earth, vaccine denial or whether the holocaust really happened, and I didn't find all that much correlation ... though admittedly a couple of CF threads probably don't count as research. :p)
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Oops, missed a bit:

Lion Hearted Man said:
Creation myths of all sorts belong in ancient history and/or literature classes. I took a great class in college on ancient epics that drew heavily on creation myths to shape an understanding of the authors (like Gilgamesh, and we even read a scholarly translation of Genesis.)
Christian schools and religious education have always looked at what Genesis means - how the Fall of man connects to Jesus' death and resurrection. Theistic evolutionists believe that too. What I mean when I say we shouldn't teach creationism is that we shouldn't distort the evidence to try and prove a literal interpretation of Genesis. Even St. Augustine didn't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, and he lived 1,500 years ago.
 
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Paradoxum

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There is a difference between not believing in a god and not having a religion.

Well I guess you could say some religions don't have a God like in Abraham religions.

Merriam says this of religion:

The definition uses a form of the word religion in the definition, so it is pretty much useless.

Certainly one can not wave the atheist flag if they have doubts (they'd then be agnostic),

I think this is all going to end up being word games. Atheist means lacking a belief in God.

their attitude is one of not supporting religious organizations, they have beliefs . . . such as an origin of life that involved a cosmic dice roll per Carl Sagan type atheism or aliens of a sort per Douglas Adams . . . pretty much anything but god(s). Practices, well, very few atheists I have known fail to evangelize. When we look at a basic definition of religion, it is hard to miss that atheism is simply the religion of the godless. Agnostics on the other hand, may escape "having a religion" on the grounds that their "I don't know" leaves EVERY possibility open and therefore can't truly be said to be institutionalized.

I would suggest you read up on the difference between religion and worldview, because I doubt I can really explain it here.

Anyway, it is pretty hard to define religion, but one way of doing it is by listing things that tend to be common to religions. The more of these things one has then more religious one is:

-Belief in something sacred (for example, gods or other supernatural beings).
-A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
-Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
-A moral code believed to have a sacred or supernatural basis.
-Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual.
-Prayer and other forms of communication with the supernatural.
-A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
-A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
-A social group bound together by the above.

Certain Christian denominations use something like the Nicene Creed as a litmus test "agree, you are Christian/ disagree you are not" Clearly Atheists have their creed as well "Believe there are no god(s) you are an atheist, believe there may be or are & you are not".

That is a definition, not a creed.

If you are uncertain and happy that way, you might be an agnostic . .. or anything else . . . doesn't quite meet the standard of institutionalized dogma.

Even Dawkins says he isn't certain.

While I can agree with an agnostic who declares themselves free of religion, I don't believe atheists are.

All of this is just an attempt to redefine words it seems.
 
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selfinflikted

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Parts of this thread give me hope in mankind, then there are the other parts...

Anyway, of course evolution should be taught in science and biology classes. What a ridiculous question. As for Creationism, um, no. That belongs in either Sunday school or in the home - not in school.
 
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sg2385

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Creationism is far more threatening to the education of children than evolution. I attended private schools where religion was the core focus of ALL subjects. While "believers" thought this was a great idea and it was focused on improving the students' lives, I thought it was much more harmful to the students. How can one possibly excel at the sciences in a University when all you were taught was religious science (which is an oxymoron to begin with) ? I personally had a hard time from being in a religious high school and transitioning to education and social life after graduating. Science has to teach evolution for our society to progress at all! Creationism as the focus of science should be a crime against intellectual humanity. Those are just my thoughts....

My one question would be: How, if any, can creation based sciences be helpful to anyone at all?
 
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Dave Ellis

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We should not teach children about creationism or evolution...in school both belong in a church setting since both are religions...not science


What is religious about Evolution?
 
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Apollo Celestio

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What is religious about Evolution?
It gets lumped in mentally because it is debated in religious atmospheres.


Evolution must be taught in science classes using the scientific method. It's simple.

I'd take an "evolution of creationism" class though.
 
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selfinflikted

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My one question would be: How, if any, can creation based sciences be helpful to anyone at all?

Creation "science" isn't helpful. At all. And, it's not even science. They just call it that to make it sound legit.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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I wasn't quite sure how to word this question. I was originally going to call it "Is refusing to teach children evolution child abuse?" but that sounded a little over-dramatic. :p

I also wondered whether the trouble lies with teaching them creationism, rather than not teaching them evolution.

Should teaching evolution be limited to schools? Are parents required to teach their children about evolution too?

Im all for teaching children in schools about the fallacious unproven wild imagination of Macro Evolution started from non living chemicals in the sky , so long as they get taught the vast scientific evidence of Intelligent Design so the student can make up their own mind .
 
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selfinflikted

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Im all for teaching children in schools about the fallacious unproven wild imagination of Macro Evolution started from non living chemicals in the sky , so long as they get taught the vast scientific evidence of Intelligent Design so the student can make up their own mind .

Name just ONE piece of legitimate scientific evidence for intelligent design.
 
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Gadarene

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I will, but first....I need you to say you will commit to God if i show you. Can you ? Please count the costs of surrendering your life to Christ , because it will come with costs to you .

Oh look, Dave makes a claim and then wastes time playing 20 questions instead of backing it up.

Just back up your claim already.

I've never seen an IDist try and prove the identity of the intelligent designer though, this'll be good. Usually those ex-creationists, sorry, "intelligent design theorists" will deny furiously that it's the god they already believe in ^_^
 
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quatona

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I will, but first....I need you to say you will commit to God if i show you. Can you ? Please count the costs of surrendering your life to Christ , because it will come with costs to you .
Is that the way creationism "science" is gonna be taught in science classes? ("Students, we have vast scientific evidence of Intelligent Design, but before we will present it we need you to say you will commit to God if we show it to you"?).
:doh:
 
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Gadarene

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Is that the way creationism "science" is gonna be taught in science classes? ("Students, we have vast scientific evidence of Intelligent Design, but before we will present it we need you to say you will commit to God if we show it to you"?).
:doh:

I don't think it's actually that unreasonable to ask in itself - the number of times a Christian has tried to pull some tired apologetics argument on me claiming that it's proof for god, and then when you paddle them into the ground and ask them whether the refutation of their argument caused them to reconsider belief, they say no (because their belief is not based on rational argument - not least that specific argument - in the first place).

What is unreasonable here is (a) it's TheyCallMeDave attempting to make a claim, which is not one of his strengths so he really shouldn't be provisoing his claims in discussion given his track record and (b) given the dodgy interconnect between the creationist movement and ID it's somewhat interesting to see someone claim that ID specifically proves the Christian god. They've been pretty sneaky about emphatically not naming the designer, even though most of the ID leaders are Christians, so they're not fooling anyone.
 
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Beanieboy

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I believe in evolution, but also believe in God, and believe that God has influence over life and evolution.

With creationism, I think the problem that most people have is that it can't be proven. It's more of a matter of faith, and seems to insist on rejecting all facts and science.

For example, there is an insistence by some that the world is only 4000 years old, with man being on the Earth on the literal 6th day of Earth's existence. Man is literally modeled out of dust by God. Animals are plopped onto the Earth from nothingness, and Adam walks around and gives them random names. A serpent walks and talks in the Garden of Eden, and it is never questioned.

In university, in my biology class, my teachers prefaced evolution by saying this: "In biology, we have to refer to science. We can make no claim without evidence to draw conclusion. For this reason, we will show you the evidence for evolution. You need to know what the facts are. You need to know "survival of the fittest" or "adapting to environment", similarities of life forms, the family names of living beings, etc. You can believe in Intelligent Design or Creationism, but because we have no hard evidence to present it, we can't discuss it, and will not cover it."

I didn't understand why they would even mention it.

It's kind of like taking a math class, and rather than explaining division, someone thinking it necessary to explain why 2x2 is 4, or who created math itself.

Creationism, to me, is more of an opinion, and a philosophy, not a science. It doesn't draw on any previous knowledge. It has a tendency, rather than to draw conclusions from acquired knowledge, science, nature, or research, to completely reject it, insisting on the belief in Creationism. It seems to draw on the often antiquated, primitive ideas of ancient man (such as, God lives "above" in heaven, or that mankind started only 4000 years ago, the age of the Earth), rather than understanding man's faulty understanding based on their limited knowledge. If one looks at the book of Noah, for example, the sky's "open up", and the rains fall, because the blue sky was thought to be literal body of water, and not actually light waves, making it appear blue. Because we have been in the sky, flying in a plane, we have seen that heaven is not literally above us, nor is God, nor is the blue water.

In the same way, I don't think that the bible can be used to base one's scientific beliefs on.

We can see how a virus mutates and evolves, becoming resistant to the medicine that once cured it. We can go to ponds, and see frogs mutate, growing extra limbs, or having a missing one, to show mutation based on water pollution and an indicator of the health of the environment.

My prof showed us a slide with an embryo of a pig, a frog, and a human. Strangely, we couldn't distinguish which was which, because even human embryos seem to have a tail, which later becomes the backbone.

I took a religion class in college as well, and my professor brought up this debate. He said, "You like my watch? Yesterday, it was just a bag of parts, and today, it "evolved" into a watch. Does that make sense to you?"

I raised my hand and said, "Do you like my watch? Yesterday, I had only a bare wrist, but when I woke up to day, it was there on my arm, "created" NOT from parts, but from nothing at all. Does that make MORE sense to you???"

Evolution is often misunderstood, and oversimplified to suggest that it is something that it is not.

It isn't just "a theory." It is a lot of facts put together to explain how living forms can mutate and change, and adapt to their environment. It shows a number of family groups that animals belong to, such as an average house cat, and a lion. It shows that all life forms are carbon based.

What it is NOT is that a dog one day had a giraffe baby. It does not say that one day, a monkey suddenly walked upright, put on a suit, and went to work in an office as a man.

And it still acknowledges that there are still some very interesting mysteries and questions about it.

For example, however man came to be, we went from being cave men, with Stone Age understanding and tools, to suddenly building pyramids with such precision that mankind today is unable to duplicate it, nor understand how it was done, and these pyramids happened in Mexico and Egypt, about the same time, among peoples who didn't know of each other.

It is still a puzzle to understand the Mayan Calendar, because it is still more accurate that our atomic clock, and predates the Mayans themselves by 3000 years. Why would they start a calendar before their own existence?

We have a puzzle of the "missing link", where there seems to be a missing step of the apparent progression of primates in the fossil record.

I don't understand why so many people see Evolution as "denying God" or "God's influence" or whatever. Evolution simply asks the question, "Where did we come from? Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Are we more like animals that dislike? How and why does mutation and evolution occur? What proof do we have, and what conclusions can we infer?"

Religion, on the other hand, does the opposite. I can't prove to you that I speak in tongues, but have no doubt about it that it is real. I can't prove God to you, can't show God to you, have you touch, hear, taste, smell, or see God him/herself, but I believe in God absolutely no doubt. I believe that God is the small inner voice that we call "our conscience", our Jimminy Cricket that guides us if we listen, that is louder when we are listening to it a lot, and harder to hear when we defy it. I can't prove that, not even with scripture, but I often have literal conversations with that voice, and it answers in a thought, or a general knowingness. Can I prove to anyone, even another Christian, that that voice is God? No. I don't have to. One Christian once claimed that it was simply my own heart, and to follow one's own heart is to be led into darkness, referring to the selfishness of their own heart. However, my "heart," my "heart of hearts", my conscience, my God who lives within, who knocked and I asked in and have faith that he/she entered, and resides there, is not selfish, not dark. If anything, my heart never allows me to be selfish without feeling heavy and guilty, constantly gently but persistently tells me "you know better," until I surrender.

I can't, then, imagine a religion class insisting on proving God with scientific criteria. That would make the concept of faith pointless. It would make my discussions about my belief system, my faith, my spirituality, and my relationship with God frustrating. My faith is based on my walk with God, listening to God, reading, listening to God, to others point of view, using reasoning, and much of the time, taking a leap of faith.

For that reason, I am unable to really understand this "debate."

University shouldn't teach "creationism" in science, where one can't even prove that God even exists, any more than a pastor should be responsible for teaching Chemistry in a church service.

Nor do I think that one must choose between religion or science.
 
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abdAlSalam

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Science for science classes, religion for religious studies. Evolution should be taught as science, since it has a body of observed and tested facts supporting it. Creationism, or rather stories of creation, should be relegated to either history classes or some other social studies class.
 
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