Should Revelations be studied?

[visionary]

You brought up It is finished by sayin it is not finished here:http://www.christianforums.com/t7397815-12/#post53364660 in response to LLOJ statement IT IS FINISHED! directly above your post. I replied to your post cited above here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7397815-15/#post54525180 . So yes you are correct I did not bring it up. LLOJ did to which you commented on and I commented on your refutation statement. Maybe I should have said LLOJ quoted Jesus saying It is finished.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. So your saying it is not finished disagrees with Jesus' statement. Either you or Jesus is correct. Since both of you can't be right I asked if Jesus was lying combined with a mocking truth statement. Who should I pick?

I have been accused of being

But you must have seen only my dust. I really must slow down.


bugkiller

Okk.... let's work on the "it is finished" comment by Yeshua. ... He just completed the sacrifice for our sins.. and said "it is finished"...

Let's put this in context on the big picture...

Hebrews 4:4
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."

Here we have a finished since the creation of the world... and yes, the Lord was talking about finishing with creating in six days... and resting on the seventh day... That is a grand view of the God's plan finished since the creation of the world... even our salvation from sin.. just in case we choose to fall away from Him in sin was taken into consideration and a plan was worked out...

Proverbs 8:23
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God is not finished until He has irradicated sin and sinner... That is why there is more written, since Christ died, why the gospel had to be preached to all the world... then the end will come.

Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[bugkiller]

Okk.... let's work on the "it is finished" comment by Yeshua. ... He just completed the sacrifice for our sins.. and said "it is finished"...

Let's put this in context on the big picture...

Hebrews 4:4
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."

Here we have a finished since the creation of the world... and yes, the Lord was talking about finishing with creating in six days... and resting on the seventh day... That is a grand view of the God's plan finished since the creation of the world... even our salvation from sin.. just in case we choose to fall away from Him in sin was taken into consideration and a plan was worked out...

Proverbs 8:23
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God is not finished until He has irradicated sin and sinner... That is why there is more written, since Christ died, why the gospel had to be preached to all the world... then the end will come.

Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Nothing unusual here. You either must not understand what Jesus said or must be taking His words out of context to mean something He made no reference to. I think you are talking about something entirely different by applying Jesus' statement to the New Jerusalem. We are all looking for that I would think.

Would a new pair of these help?

I doubt it.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

Would a new pair of these help?

I doubt it.

bugkiller

I rather like these glasses myself

Hi BMN! I need to find a way to photoshop Obama into this picture.......wanna give it a try?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Father Thomas Hopko has some awesome lectures on the book of Revelation that you can find if you do a little google-ing.

 

[visionary]

The main point is that when Yeshua said it was finished, He was talking about His offering of Himself for the sins of the world... not that everything is finished.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The main point is that when Yeshua said it was finished, He was talking about His offering of Himself for the sins of the world... not that everything is finished.

Remember what our Lord left off from Isaiah 61:2 [which He quoted from in Luke 4:21

Y@sha`yah 61:2 To call of Year of acceptance/07522 ratsown for YHWH and Day of Vengeance for our Elohiym.
To comfort all of mourning ones.
[Luke 4]

Luke 4:21 He begins to say yet toward them "that today has been ful-filled the Writing, this, in the ears of ye".
[Isaiah 61]

Luke 21:22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be ful-filled all the having been written

Reve 15:1 And I saw another Sign in the Heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers seven, having stripes/blows seven, the last, that in them is-finished the Fury/qumoV <2372> of the God

 

[visionary]

Remember what our Lord left off from Isaiah 61:2 [which He quoted from in Luke 4:21

Y@sha`yah 61:2 To call of Year of acceptance/07522 ratsown for YHWH and Day of Vengeance for our Elohiym.
To comfort all of mourning ones.
[Luke 4]

Luke 21:22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be ful-filled all the having been written

Reve 15:1 And I saw another Sign in the Heaven, great and marvelous. Messengers seven, having stripes/blows seven, the last, that in them is-finished the Fury/qumoV <2372> of the God

amen

 

[visionary]

Here is another verse... at another great end in the process of eliminating sin from sinner...

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done... as in FINISHED..

This is the end to the sanctuary service where our Lord has been serving as the HIgh Priest before God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is another verse... at another great end in the process of eliminating sin from sinner...

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done... as in FINISHED..

This is the end to the sanctuary service where our Lord has been serving as the HIgh Priest before God.

If it is finished then, what is that event after the 1000yr period?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7457416/#post54535966

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738), up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the redemption of ye.

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out a great Voice great from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 21:6]

 

[visionary]

Why another step towards cleaning up .... the Lord, our shepherd goes through this step by step... at each step when it is completed.. tell us.. that part is finished.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why another step towards cleaning up .... the Lord, our shepherd goes through this step by step... at each step when it is completed.. tell us.. that part is finished.

Jesus repeats that same word for "become/completed" twice in Revelation.

If that is the total Completion of the End of the Age, what is that event showing after that mysterious "1000yr period"?

Mark 13:7 Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles no be being alarmed! it is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), but not as yet the end

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End
[Matthew 24]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 21:6]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 16:17]

 

[visionary]

Jesus repeats that same word for "become/completed" twice in Revelation.

If that is the total Completion of the End of the Age, what is that event showing after that mysterious "1000yr period"?

Mark 13:7 Whenever yet ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles no be being alarmed! it is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635), but not as yet the end

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End
[Matthew 24]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great Voice from the Sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 21:6]

Reve 21:6 And He said to me "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 16:17]

It is all rehearsed in the feasts

 

[Stryder06]

I won't be here when those tribulation events take place. So I don't need to be prepared for them. I do admit to thinking things are going to get tough in very near future and some people might think it is the tribulation.

Hey since you brought up mark of the beast what do you think it is? Just asking, I will not debate you on this at the moment. I do have an opinion or position, tho.

bugkiller

Your response of "I won't be here" is why I think study of the book of Revelation is crucial. Rev 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You can't come out of something if you haven't been in it.

As far as the mark of the beast is concerned: It will be (notice the future tense there) forced Sunday worship through legislation.

 

[Cribstyl]

Your response of "I won't be here" is why I think study of the book of Revelation is crucial. Rev 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You can't come out of something if you haven't been in it.

As far as the mark of the beast is concerned: It will be (notice the future tense there) forced Sunday worship through legislation.

What a shameful outlook to think that worshipping on Sunday is a seal of the satanic. The scripture does not establish that worship is only acceptable by God on the sabbath.

Studying the scriptures to gain wisdom is fruitful, but some commentaries are designed to change the understanding of God's word.

 

[Stryder06]

What a shameful outlook to think that worshipping on Sunday is a seal of the satanic. The scripture does not establish that worship is only acceptable by God on the sabbath.

I think that its more shameful for us to assume what God does and doesn't care about. And if you didn't notice, I said it was the seal once it is forced through legislation. You do realize that's happening now right?

Think of it like this. This whole controversy is over worship and authority if you will. What could the mark of the beast be aside from something geared at gaining mans worship and having him acknowledge another authority besides God?

Studying the scriptures to gain wisdom is fruitful, but some commentaries are designed to change the understanding of God's word.

Ok...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What a shameful outlook to think that worshipping on Sunday is a seal of the satanic. The scripture does not establish that worship is only acceptable by God on the sabbath.

Studying the scriptures to gain wisdom is fruitful, but some commentaries are designed to change the understanding of God's word.

Tis an SDA thang me thinks

http://www.christianforums.com/t6982465-107/#post44368491
Is Sunday worship the mark of the beast?

 

[Yekcidmij]

As Christians, and those anticipating the coming of our Lord, should it be of importance to the body of Christ to study and understand the last book of the bible?

There are many incorrect theories floating around about what Revelations teaches, this being the case, shouldn't the church have the best understanding (as good as possible that is) in regards to this book?

Even move, do you think that Revelations is important to salvation and our mission to preach the gospel?

Should it be studied? Yes, of course. It's difficult though since there is such a wide disagreement over the most basic elements of the letter. People can't agree over who it was written to and why or what type of writing it is.

It wouldn't be too much of a problem if everyone agreed on a general reference, such as it being written to and for a group of people in the first century sometime. But people don't treat it like that. Many treat it as if it were written for some distant future audience far removed from the first century. Further, people can't get their heads around the type of writing it is. We approach it with very westerinized thinking and think that everything in the book is either literal or metaphorical; it's either a predictive textbook or it isn't. We often don't allow for an author to be human; we don't allow him to use hyperbole, symbols, and vivid imagery.

What I see many people failing to see that the book of Revelation is written to and for a first century audience with a message that they will understand. What John is not telling them about is nuclear war, helicopters, UN or EU peace treaties, etc.. This should be evident to people, but it's often missed:

1:4 From John, to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia:
2:1 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Ephesus
2:8 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Smyrna
2:12 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Pergamum
2:18 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Thyatira
3:1 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Sardis
3:7 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Philadelphia
3:14 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Laodicea
22:16 &#8220;I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.

The book opens and closes with a specific reference to the churches of Asia Minor. Two chapters of the book have explicit references and particular messages for each of those churches. How can it still be doubted that this book is written TO and FOR churches in Asia Minor in the first century?

Sometimes people will do really silly things like say "take the text literally unless it's obviously metaphorical", then they will turn right around and say that the 7 churches in Asia Minorare metaphorical/symbolical for church ages or types of churches throughout history! It doesn't get much more inconsistent. You might as well throw away the axiom if you're going to take such a clear literal reference to be some type of methaphor or symbol.

In failing to account for the genre and audience of the book people will start to interpret everything as if it's refering to events contemporary to us. Things like: helicopters, nuclear war, wild anti-christ speculation (to include any number of silly guesses: the RCC, Ronald Regan, Tony Blair, Kofi Anan, Barak Obama, Javier Solana, Sunday worship, computers, the internet, and on and on and on....), modern day peace treaties like the Geneva Accords, some Revived Roman Empire, the EU, the UN, NAFTA, etc... There is really no end to much of this nonsense so long as people fail to use a good method of interpretation.

So, should we study the book? Yes, absolutely. But by "study" we shouldn't take the book and start running rampant through the newspaper trying to piece together John's book from the Associated Press, Fox News, or CNN.

 

[Cribstyl]

I think that its more shameful for us to assume what God does and doesn't care about. And if you didn't notice, I said it was the seal once it is forced through legislation. You do realize that's happening now right?


Think of it like this. This whole controversy is over worship and authority if you will. What could the mark of the beast be aside from something geared at gaining mans worship and having him acknowledge another authority besides God?

Ok...

The dream about the forth beast in Daniel 7 causes some people to act fearful of things that are not clearly understood.
These people feel that their prophetic connection to God have revealed the mysteries of the word. The bible sez, if they ever say "Thus sayeth the Lord", and that thing does not come true, dont pay them no mind.

God has called Christians to faith in the Gospel, not in the doctrines of prophetic interpretation.


Where is it written that Sunday worship will be forced by legislation?
You're presenting a questionable doctrine about Sunday worship being the mark of the beast as if we're in violation of God's law. (We get it, you're the one keeping God's law.)
We are the ones who should be outraged:o because your doctrines were designed to scare ignorant people.

We know that you're quoting a false prophet rather than the word of God.


Consider this......
Same sex marriage is against God's law and designed to change God's law (not in the 10). This could be seen more as the mark of the beast, rather than offering God the same worship that SDA suppose to give out of a sincere heart.


The debate about worship and sabbath prove that words have clear meaning. God commanded sabbath as both a sign and a day of rest for the COI.

Christ gave His faithful "communion with bread and wine" as a sign in remembrance of Him.

 

[Stryder06]

] -snip-

God has called Christians to faith in the Gospel, not in the doctrines of prophetic interpretation.

You don't see prophecy as part of the gospel? Isn't it good news that Jesus is coming back? Isn't it good news that He has given us the inside track so that our hearts won't faint with fear at those things which are to come?

Where is it written that Sunday worship will be forced by legislation?

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

You're presenting a questionable doctrine about Sunday worship being the mark of the beast as if we're in violation of God's law. (We get it, you're the one keeping God's law.)

You don't get it actually. You think that the day of worship doesn't matter simply because its a day. It's such a small trivial matter that the Most High God couldn't possibly be concerned with a day. So long as we worship Him then that's all that really matters.

I ask you this: Lot's wife was turned to a pillar of salt for simply looking at Sodom one last time. Something so trivial, I promise you that in her heart all she said was "I'll just look one last time...just real quick..." And that was the last thing she ever did. It doesn't matter how "small" the command is. If God said do it or don't do it, we're suppose to do it or not do it.

We should have the right to be outraged:o because your doctrines were designed to put fear in the ignorant people. We know that you're quoting a false prophet rather than the word of God.

Good. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If anyone should be outraged it should be God. His creation telling Him what is and isn't important for salvation when the scripture clearly says that all of it is profitable. And you can go ahead with your "false prophet thing". Beautiful thing about it is that either it will happen or it won't. You name for me one prophet that was popular in his day. Christ wasn't even accepted by His own, and He was God! Prophets have never been popular, they've never not been accused of being false or bringing disaster. Fortunately the popular opinion doesn't matter. The majority vote stands with God.

Consider this......same sex marriage is against God's law and designed to change God's law (not in the 10). This could be seen as the mark of the beast, rather than offering God worship out of a sincere heart. The debate about worship and sabbath prove that words have clear meaning. God commanded sabbath as a sign not worship.

You could consider anything to be the mark of the beast. Won't make it so. And all of the commandments of God are for worship. What do you think obedience is? When you obey you worship Him. You acknowledge Him as God and leader. Sincerity doesn't amount to a hill of beans. He didn't ask for sincerity. He asked you to be obedient. This is why the mark is future. When it happens your "she's a false prophet!" this and "you're an alarmist" that won't matter. There will be no time for excuses, it will be time to chose.

I mean the signs are all around. There are individuals diligently working to make sunday a holy day of rest, one enforced by law. It's happening in other countries. Problem is that people put more stake in the constitution than they do in the word of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Should it be studied? Yes, of course. It's difficult though since there is such a wide disagreement over the most basic elements of the letter. People can't agree over who it was written to and why or what type of writing it is.

1:4 From John, to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia:
2:1 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Ephesus
2:8 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Smyrna
2:12 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Pergamum
2:18 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Thyatira
3:1 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Sardis
3:7 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Philadelphia
3:14 &#8220;To the angel of the church in Laodicea
22:16 &#8220;I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.

The book opens and closes with a specific reference to the churches of Asia Minor. .

I find the Assembly of "thyatira" especially interesting.

Daniel mentions a "4th" beast and coincidentally, this Assembly is shown 4th in Revelation.

Daniel 11:1 And I, in year one to Dar`yavesh the Maday to stand me, to make strong and to protect him.
2 And now truth I shall tell to you. Behold! Yet 3 Kings, ones standing to Parac, and the 4th he shall be richer [in] great riches than all. And as to be strenghthed in his riches, he shall arouse/raise-up all the Kingdom [#04438] of Javan
[Yavan-Zech 9:13].

Reve 2:20 But I am having against of thee *few. That thou suffer the woman/wife Jezebel, the one saying herself Prophetess and she is teaching and deceiving My bond-servants to prostitue and to be eating idol-sacrifices.
[1 King 16:31/Reve 18:7]

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

*snip*

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches,.....
.........There is one name in the Bible that no parents would think to give to their daughter, and that name is Jezebel. The name Jezebel sweeps across the pages of the Bible. The typical Jezebel of the Old Testament was the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Tyre and Sidon. The name Ethbaal means "with Baal." Prior to becoming king, Ethbaal was a priest to the goddess Astarte, also known as Ashtoreth or Ishtar. This was the goddess of sensual love and sex. From her childhood Jezebel was steeped in false religion and government. Jezebel grew up in an atmosphere of position, power, and prestige..........