Should Protestants and Catholics really be arguing over Good Works?

[Daniel Peres]

Well then there’s the idea that it’s not the works themselves that play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind the works that is actually taken into consideration.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB

I don’t know what, if any motivation, Protestants have for doing good works. I do know the motivation for Catholics. We view ourselves like the sheep in the parable of the sheep and goats. When we see someone in need, we don’t see that person, we see Jesus. And just like in the parable, we believe that by loving the person in need we are loving Jesus. As Jesus said to the sheep in the parable, when you did it to them, you did it to me. That’s what Catholicism is all about.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This always amazes me. How can honoring the woman that taught us to ,”Do whatever he says” be idolatrous. This idolatry accusation also comes from ignorance. For some reason, there are many Protestants that actually believe the words worship and prayer are synonyms. Of course they have completely different meanings. You would think that Americans would know the definition of common English words, but apparently that’s not the case. Because of this ignorance of the English language, they naturally believe that when a Catholic prays to Mary to ask for her prayers to God, they are worshipping Mary. The good news is that the problem is easily solved by using a dictionary. Then again, Protestants are probably so committed to the idea that Catholics worship Mary that I wouldn’t be surprised if they said the dictionary was wrong. But that’s what happens when you believe false dogmas. You can’t see the truth even if it slaps you in the face.

Thats not an American misconception my friend it’s just people in general who simply refuse to accept something for what it is. It’s not an exclusively American faulty trait there are many of us who understand the difference between prayers of supplication and worship.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don’t know what, if any motivation, Protestants have for doing good works. I do know the motivation for Catholics. We view ourselves like the sheep in the parable of the sheep and goats. When we see someone in need, we don’t see that person, we see Jesus. And just like in the parable, we believe that by loving the person in need we are loving Jesus. As Jesus said to the sheep in the parable, when you did it to them, you did it to me. That’s what Catholicism is all about.

That parable is exactly what comes to my mind every time I see someone in need and I’m not a Roman Catholic. I typically describe myself as a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox doctrines pertaining to salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For a lot of people, proving the Catholic Church wrong is the only means to justify their religion. It all hinges on Catholicism being wrong.

It's sad.

Amen sad but true.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Thats not an American misconception my friend it’s just people in general who simply refuse to accept something for what it is. It’s not an exclusively American faulty trait there are many of us who understand the difference between prayers of supplication and worship.

That’s why I didn’t accuse all Protestants confusing prayer and worship.

I am also not suggesting it’s a problem exclusive to Americans nor the English language. I am simply relating my experience. Being an American, that’s who I interact with. Being the child of Cuban refugees, I do speak Spanish fluently, but I’m not comfortable enough with the language to discuss theological matters with the Spanish-Speaking Christian community, neither Catholic or Protestant. I’m not even sure what the word for worship in Spanish is. Then again, now that I think about, the Spanish speaking Evangelicals I have occasionally communicated with also have the belief that Catholics worship Mary. So they confuse prayer with worship also.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This always amazes me. How can honoring the woman that taught us to ,”Do whatever he says” be idolatrous. This idolatry accusation also comes from ignorance. For some reason, there are many Protestants that actually believe the words worship and prayer are synonyms. Of course they have completely different meanings. You would think that Americans would know the definition of common English words, but apparently that’s not the case. Because of this ignorance of the English language, they naturally believe that when a Catholic prays to Mary to ask for her prayers to God, they are worshipping Mary. The good news is that the problem is easily solved by using a dictionary. Then again, Protestants are probably so committed to the idea that Catholics worship Mary that I wouldn’t be surprised if they said the dictionary was wrong. But that’s what happens when you believe false dogmas. You can’t see the truth even if it slaps you in the face.

Actually, the idolatry meme was more directed in general towards other issues separate from Mary.

However, the idea of Mary being a co-redeemer does seem to indicate that protestants and catholics will not be able to agree on salvation related theological issues.

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28)

This illustrates how the over emphasis of Mary has resulted in a diversion of focus away from the word of God. Jesus said, but the catholic church didn't care .. therefore, protestants and catholics will argue over works until the end of time.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Actually, the idolatry meme was more directed in general towards other issues separate from Mary.

However, the idea of Mary being a co-redeemer does seem to indicate that protestants and catholics will not be able to agree on salvation related theological issues.

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28)

This illustrates how the over emphasis of Mary has resulted in a diversion of focus away from the word of God. Jesus said, but the catholic church didn't care .. therefore, protestants and catholics will argue over works until the end of time.

What does Mary have to do with "works"? I see no real relationship.

 

[Soyeong]

Sometimes I wonder if it really even makes any sense for Protestants and Catholics to argue over good works. Does it really matter whether one holds the common Protestant belief that our good works are a result of our justification or of someone holds the Catholic belief that there is no salvation if you refuse to do good works for those that are suffering. The fact is that neither side believes salvation can be earned. Maybe the important thing is that Christians on both sides of the argument perform good works as Jesus wants us to. Sometimes it just seems like this argument is exactly like the argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg. It just doesn't matter which one God made as long as we have chickens and eggs in the world. So maybe it doesn't matter, as much as we think it does, where exactly good works fall in God's plan for Salvation. Maybe it's more important that all Christians remain unified in the fight against the Devil. Maybe it just matters that Christians do good works to glorify God.

There are many verses that I could cite that support that we do not earn our justification by obeying God's law as a wage, such as Romans 4:4-5, and many verses that I could cite that support that our justification requires us to choose to obey God's law, such as Romans 2:13, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to it.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

The problem tends to be with Catholics citing verses that support our justification requiring us to choose obey God's law be misunderstood by Protestants responding with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage, or with Catholics misunderstanding the doctrine faith alone in accordance with the verses cited by Protestants as speaking against the verses that support our justification requiring us to choose to obey God's law.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What does Mary have to do with "works"? I see no real relationship.

The relationship is the quoted scripture verse in my previous post.

Furthermore, time could be better spent.

Instead of praising Mary, go do God's will.

That's the relationship.

 

[Daniel Peres]

There are many verses that I could cite that support that we do not earn our justification by obeying God's law as a wage, such as Romans 4:4-5, and many verses that I could cite that support that our justification requires us to choose to obey God's law, such as Romans 2:13, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to it.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

The problem tends to be with Catholics citing verses that support our justification requiring us to choose obey God's law be misunderstood by Protestants responding with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage, or with Catholics misunderstanding the doctrine faith alone in accordance with the verses cited by Protestants as speaking against the verses that support our justification requiring us to choose to obey God's law.

I would also add that the word earn does not always refer to earning in the way one earns a wage. Think about how you earn someone’s trust. It is impossible to earn someone’s trust as if you earned a wage. A relationship built on trust was not earned like a wage.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The problem I see in your argument is that you say that we must love Jesus, and I agree. But, how can we know we love Jesus. Fortunately for us, Jesus taught us how he we
are to love him. He very clearly said, “Those who love me will keep my commandments.” This is where your argument gets problematic. Following Jesus’ commandments entails doing good works. Look at the parable of the sheep and goats. There goats were not pagans, they were Christians who had accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So, the goats had faith in Jesus but went to hell anyway. And why why did they go to hell. Jesus was very that it was for one reason only, the goats had not done any good works (not works of the law). By not loving people who needed help and doing good works for them, they were refusing to do the good works to Jesus.

You want to call me evil for being a sheep? Go ahead and call me evil. And you can go ahead and be a goat and receive everything that comes with it.

I'm guessing you missed the regeneration by His Holy Spirit. This is first and foremost. Blessings

 

[Daniel Peres]

I'm guessing you missed the regeneration by His Holy Spirit. This is first and foremost. Blessings

Sorry, but I don't understand your comment. Could you please explain?

 

[Daniel Peres]

There are many verses that I could cite that support that we do not earn our justification by obeying God's law as a wage, such as Romans 4:4-5, and many verses that I could cite that support that our justification requires us to choose to obey God's law, such as Romans 2:13, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to it.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

The problem tends to be with Catholics citing verses that support our justification requiring us to choose obey God's law be misunderstood by Protestants responding with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage, or with Catholics misunderstanding the doctrine faith alone in accordance with the verses cited by Protestants as speaking against the verses that support our justification requiring us to choose to obey God's law.

Nobody earns salvation. And I know of no Christian (Protestant or Catholic) that believes salvation can be earned.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Actually, the idolatry meme was more directed in general towards other issues separate from Mary.

However, the idea of Mary being a co-redeemer does seem to indicate that protestants and catholics will not be able to agree on salvation related theological issues.

And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28)

This illustrates how the over emphasis of Mary has resulted in a diversion of focus away from the word of God. Jesus said, but the catholic church didn't care .. therefore, protestants and catholics will argue over works until the end of time.

The easiest way to understand why Catholics look to Mary is because she points us to her son. She was the first person in scripture to say, "Do whatever he tells you.” Those words are a big part of Cathoic theology. I don't see how following her orders to do whatever Jesus tells us takes the focus away from God. I realize you are not Catholic so you believe that Mary is a diversion. However, as much as you can't see it, the truth is that whole purpose of Marian devotion is for us to focus on God.

 

[Soyeong]

Nobody earns salvation. And I know of no Christian (Protestant or Catholic) that believes salvation can be earned.

There can be any number of reasons that someone could have for choosing to obey God's law, such as fear of Hell, fear of God, love, faith, building godly character, building a relationship with God, restoring the world, in order to look pious, or in order to earn their salvation. The Bible can speak in favor of correct motivations for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law while also speaking against incorrect motivations that misunderstand the goal of the law, and the problem is when people mistake verses that were only said against incorrect motivations as being against the correct motivations for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13).

 

[Daniel Peres]

For a lot of people, proving the Catholic Church wrong is the only means to justify their religion. It all hinges on Catholicism being wrong.

It's sad.

It's funny you mention this. I have come to believe that the Protestant Reformation didn't just create new doctrines. I think it started an unending competition among Protestants. The purpose of the competition is to see who can be the least Catholic Protestant. The Protestant Reformation started off people like Martin Luther and John Calvin who, although they did have non-Catholic beliefs, still had much in common with the Catholic Church. The offspring churches of these men started looking at the original reformers and asked themselves, "how can we be even less Catholic than Luther and Calvin?" One day somebody said, "I got a great idea. I declare that Mary will no longer believe that Mary was a perpetual version and that Jeus had full brothers by her. Then another Protestant said to those Protestants, "Oh, so you think your so non-Catholic? Well guess what we're even less Catholic than you because we are forbidding infant Baptism from now on." Then eventually came people like John Smith and Thomas Jefferson, and they said to those Protestants, "so you think you are so unlike the Catholics. Well guess? We no longer believe Jesus is God!" This kept going on and on. Just when I thought this competition had come to a conclusion, I met a former Catholic who had become a Protestant while standing in line at Costco. She tried to convince me to go to her church. My response was to give her a prayer card with a picture of Jesus on it. Her reaction was priceless. She genuinely freaked out and told me that having a picture of Jesus was idolatrous. I thought I had seen it all, but I had actually met a Protestant that believed I was committing idolatry by being in possession of an image of Jesus Christ! I'd say she had been very successful in her pursuit of being as non-Catholic as possible.

 

[Daniel Peres]

There can be any number of reasons that someone could have for choosing to obey God's law, such as fear of Hell, fear of God, love, faith, building godly character, building a relationship with God, restoring the world, in order to look pious, or in order to earn their salvation. The Bible can speak in favor of correct motivations for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law while also speaking against incorrect motivations that misunderstand the goal of the law, and the problem is when people mistake verses that were only said against incorrect motivations as being against the correct motivations for why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13).

The motivation for Catholics obeying God is simply this, they enjoy loving God. I can't express how much pleasure it gives me to love God. Is that a bad motivation? Maybe it is. I love God in order to feel pleasure and Joy. I agree that any other motivation is questionable.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Sorry, but I don't understand your comment. Could you please explain?

The Father makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. This is being Born Again.
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

[Soyeong]

The motivation for Catholics obeying God is simply this, they enjoy loving God. I can't express how much pleasure it gives me to love God. Is that a bad motivation? Maybe it is. I love God in order to feel pleasure and Joy. I agree that any other motivation is questionable.

Loving God is certainly one of the correct motivations. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of the Law of God, and it could not accurately be described as such if it were not God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of God's nature. So when we testify about God's righteousness by doing what is righteous in obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for God's righteousness, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. So everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of His nature. Likewise when we put our trust in aspects of God's nature as the guide for how to correctly live our lives by obeying His law, we are putting our faith in Him, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and faith is another correct motivation.

On the other hand, if someone refuses to obey aspects of God's law, then they are testifying that those are aspects of God's nature that they do not love or trust. For example, in 1 Pete 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct as He is holy, such as by keeping God's Sabbath holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and by refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). So by having a holy conduct as God is holy, we are testifying about and putting our trust in God's holiness, while someone who refuses to follow God's instructions for how have a holy conduct as He is holy is testifying that holiness is an aspect of God's nature that they do not love or trust. They are essentially treating God as not being holy and are bearing false witness against God by living in a way that testifies that God is not holy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nobody earns salvation. And I know of no Christian (Protestant or Catholic) that believes salvation can be earned.

I agree it’s typically just a false accusation that gets thrown around wildly amongst people in different denominations or with different theologies.