Should Protestants and Catholics really be arguing over Good Works?

[BNR32FAN]

It's funny you mention this. I have come to believe that the Protestant Reformation didn't just create new doctrines. I think it started an unending competition among Protestants. The purpose of the competition is to see who can be the least Catholic Protestant. The Protestant Reformation started off people like Martin Luther and John Calvin who, although they did have non-Catholic beliefs, still had much in common with the Catholic Church. The offspring churches of these men started looking at the original reformers and asked themselves, "how can we be even less Catholic than Luther and Calvin?" One day somebody said, "I got a great idea. I declare that Mary will no longer believe that Mary was a perpetual version and that Jeus had full brothers by her. Then another Protestant said to those Protestants, "Oh, so you think your so non-Catholic? Well guess what we're even less Catholic than you because we are forbidding infant Baptism from now on." Then eventually came people like John Smith and Thomas Jefferson, and they said to those Protestants, "so you think you are so unlike the Catholics. Well guess? We no longer believe Jesus is God!" This kept going on and on. Just when I thought this competition had come to a conclusion, I met a former Catholic who had become a Protestant while standing in line at Costco. She tried to convince me to go to her church. My response was to give her a prayer card with a picture of Jesus on it. Her reaction was priceless. She genuinely freaked out and told me that having a picture of Jesus was idolatrous. I thought I had seen it all, but I had actually met a Protestant that believed I was committing idolatry by being in possession of an image of Jesus Christ! I'd say she had been very successful in her pursuit of being as non-Catholic as possible.

I’ve often thought that the reformation lost a lot of Orthodox doctrines in their contempt for Roman Catholic theology. So many people were fed up with the Roman church during that time and it’s not surprising given what had been taking place in the church at that time. I agree it was necessary to break away from the Roman Catholic Church but they lost a lot of sound theology in the process.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Loving God is certainly one of the correct motivations. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of the Law of God, and it could not accurately be described as such if it were not God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of God's nature. So when we testify about God's righteousness by doing what is righteous in obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for God's righteousness, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. So everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of His nature. Likewise when we put our trust in aspects of God's nature as the guide for how to correctly live our lives by obeying His law, we are putting our faith in Him, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and faith is another correct motivation.

On the other hand, if someone refuses to obey aspects of God's law, then they are testifying that those are aspects of God's nature that they do not love or trust. For example, in 1 Pete 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct as He is holy, such as by keeping God's Sabbath holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and by refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). So by having a holy conduct as God is holy, we are testifying about and putting our trust in God's holiness, while someone who refuses to follow God's instructions for how have a holy conduct as He is holy is testifying that holiness is an aspect of God's nature that they do not love or trust. They are essentially treating God as not being holy and are bearing false witness against God by living in a way that testifies that God is not holy.

Actually the reason most Christians don’t observe the dietary laws or the Saturday Sabbath is because they believe that the scriptures teach that we are no longer obligated to do so. It has nothing to do with disobedience to God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The easiest way to understand why Catholics look to Mary is because she points us to her son. She was the first person in scripture to say, "Do whatever he tells you.” Those words are a big part of Cathoic theology. I don't see how following her orders to do whatever Jesus tells us takes the focus away from God. I realize you are not Catholic so you believe that Mary is a diversion. However, as much as you can't see it, the truth is that whole purpose of Marian devotion is for us to focus on God.

Thanks for taking the time to ponder before responding.

God bless.

 

[Soyeong]

Actually the reason most Christians don’t observe the dietary laws or the Saturday Sabbath is because they believe that the scriptures teach that we are no longer obligated to do so. It has nothing to do with disobedience to God.

If for no other reason, we are obligated to obey God because He is sovereign, though there are other good reasons that we are obligated to obey Him, such as faith and love. The only way that we would no longer be obligated to have a holy conduct as God is holy is if God is no longer eternally holy. Christ set an example for us to follow of keeping the Sabbath holy as well as dietary laws, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4), so there is not much sense in someone wanting to become a follower of Christ while not wanting to follow him because they thing that they are not longer obligated to do so. There is also not much sense in interpreting God's word and speaking against obeying God's word.

 

[Der Alte]

Actually the reason most Christians don’t observe the dietary laws or the Saturday Sabbath is because they believe that the scriptures teach that we are no longer obligated to do so. It has nothing to do with disobedience to God.

Acts of the apostles 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Acts of the apostles 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them,​

Why would Paul dispute with the men from Judea about gentiles being circumcised if he was going to tell gentiles later that they had to study Torah in the synagogues? I think we are a little out of touch with reality here.

Acts of the apostles 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts of the apostles 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ​

Did Paul say that circumcision and keeping the law was a yoke that even the Jews could not bear then later tell gentile Christians to go to synagogues and learn Torah, and keep the law?

Acts of the apostles 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they [1] abstain from pollutions of idols, and [2] from fornication, and from [3] things strangled, and [4] from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

This is the first of three times that four, and only four, requirements for gentiles are given. No command to attend synagogues, keep the law and follow all the food laws.
This verse is saying only the gentiles have to be given special instructions, the Jews don't need it because they already have Moses being preached in the synagogues every Sabbath. This vs. is not saying that gentiles must attend synagogues and learn Torah

Acts of the apostles 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Paul and the others gave no such command i.e. be circumcised and keep the law. No command for gentiles to go to synagogues or follow the dietary laws.

Acts of the apostles 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye [1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.​

The second time the four, and only four, requirements are given to the gentiles. No command to go to synagogues, no command keep the law and no command to follow dietary laws.

Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [i.e. keep the law vs. 24] save ONLY that they keep themselves [1] from things offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from strangled, and [4]from fornication.​

The third and final time when the four, and only four, requirements are given to the gentiles. And again Paul says they gave no such command for gentiles to keep the law and no command to go to synagogues and no command to follow dietary laws.

 

[Guojing]

Sometimes I wonder if it really even makes any sense for Protestants and Catholics to argue over good works. Does it really matter whether one holds the common Protestant belief that our good works are a result of our justification or of someone holds the Catholic belief that there is no salvation if you refuse to do good works for those that are suffering. The fact is that neither side believes salvation can be earned. Maybe the important thing is that Christians on both sides of the argument perform good works as Jesus wants us to. Sometimes it just seems like this argument is exactly like the argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg. It just doesn't matter which one God made as long as we have chickens and eggs in the world. So maybe it doesn't matter, as much as we think it does, where exactly good works fall in God's plan for Salvation. Maybe it's more important that all Christians remain unified in the fight against the Devil. Maybe it just matters that Christians do good works to glorify God.

Its good to understand the distinction between front-loading and back-loading of works onto salvation

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”

This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtle. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.

Well, again, all Christians should do good works and continue in good works. But our works do not prove we are saved. For there are a lot of religious people out there who do good works, and yet they are lost. Catholics out there do good works (A lot of them stand up for the unborn outside of abortion mills), yet they are still lost. Mormons do good works, and a lot of them may live moral lives, yet they are still lost. False Jehovah’s witnesses, a lot of them do good works, and their women even dress very modestly, Yet though they are also Lost and unconverted. For they are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but our trusting in their works to save them. And the Mormons and False Jehovah’s witnesses both reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[jacks]

Arguing among Christians almost always does more harm than good.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35

Without that love all doctrine pales.

 

[Guojing]

Arguing among Christians almost always does more harm than good.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35

Without that love all doctrine pales.

Think from another perspective.

In physical meetings, small groups or otherwise, such things never get discussed.

Everyone usually wants to go home soon and we frown on individuals who are willing to ask such questions because it forced all of us to wait. The cell group leader obviously finds it uncomfortable addressing such questions as well.

But such questions are always there, and forums like that allow people to ask freely and get all kinds of answers, good or bad.

 

[Daniel Peres]

The Father makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. This is being Born Again.
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Catholics believe in something called the Deposit of Faith. This is everything given to us by by the Apostles in the first century all the way until the death of John the Apostle. During the Deposit of Faith all Christians we’re taught and believed that a person is born again through baptism. Peter wrote inn1 Peter 3:21, “And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” You can invent new beliefs if you want. But Catholics are prohibited from contradicting what was taught in the Deposit of Faith. Unlike you, we don’t have that choice. We are required to remain loyal to the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I’ve often thought that the reformation lost a lot of Orthodox doctrines in their contempt for Roman Catholic theology. So many people were fed up with the Roman church during that time and it’s not surprising given what had been taking place in the church at that time. I agree it was necessary to break away from the Roman Catholic Church but they lost a lot of sound theology in the process.

What was going on at the time that was so horrible? There were a couple of priests teaching heresy about indulgences. The problems are far worse today. But, I am not worried, because unlike Protestant churches, the Catholic Church has safeguards that will always prevent a heresy from becoming an official doctrine of the church. There has been a rule in place in the Catholic since it’s beginning that prohibits any pope or ecumenical council from declaring a doctrine that contradicts a prior infallible doctrine. That’s why the priests selling indulgences never became an official church teaching. There are many Catholics, laity, priests, bishops, etc that would love to declare a doctrine that homosexual acts are not sinful, and contraception and abortion is permissible, but that would contradict prior infallible church doctrine. But Protestant churches don’t have any safeguards to protect their churches. That’s why Anglicans/Episcopalians, Evangelical Lutherans, and Methodists have been able to make the previously mentioned sins officially accepted in their churches. I hate what’s happening in the Catholic Church but I fear more for Protestant churches that have no way to stop the madness from being officially recognized by their churches.