Should musicians be paid?

[CyNix]

Being a musician myself i stand very much against the idea that musicians should be paid. I dont even belive pastors should be paid..take pauls ministry for example..yes he wasnt a pastor but he worked to support himself (he was a tent maker) as well as serving God . If im ever offered money in the music ministry i will refuse..i want to be serving this way purely to give God back all he has given me and not be motivated by financial gain!

I disagree with you. A paid musician or pastor is not working for the money, they are serving God. But they do need a house, electricity, and food like any other person. And they should be allowed to go out to eat, or see a movie sometimes like any other person should.

If a person in the church is serving God full time, where should they find the money that they need to live? In the Bible, the priests, and even the temple workers were fed by the people who worshiped at the temple. They did not concern themselves with making money.

I belong to a small church of about 120 people, including our many young children. It would be wrong to expect our pastor to do what he does, while having to worry about making money too. He just could not do it.

 

[Jim B]

Interesting observations, LilAngelHeart, who wrote:

This is what I think. I think as long as a musician behaves as a Christian then you should take him at his word unless/until you see him doing something very un Christian. That's all you can do is take him at his word. But when you get into letting non Christians join the musicians, that's a different road all together, the person is known to be a sinner, he feels as if you are condoning his unChristian position and other members of the church may feel the same way. Some people cannot be ministered from someone who they know is a sinner. Inviting them to the church is fine, but a sinner should not reside in an area of ministry like that. It will compromise the whole ministry, it also gives the devel a door into that group also. What happens if somewhere down the line like 3 months later, he wants to start inserting non Christian things into the music ministry? Being a sinner he has no discernment. What if he causes some of the other christian musicians to stumble by creating confusion. Plus, what if he never decides to get saved and he's not ashamed of his lifestyle and doesn't even try to hide it?

I pastor a very unusual church here in East Texas. We decided from the start that our primary target group would be disenfranchised and unchurched Christians, many of whom were the victims of some spiritual abuse that is occurring in some local fellowships in our area and who were made to feel unworthy of fellowship for one reason or another. We have sworn off legalism and called ourself a “user-friendly” church, church done differently. For example, we accept divorced/remarried people into our membership without limiting their service to God, no matter how many times they have been divorced or remarried (as Jesus did with the Samaritan woman at the well.) We have cigarette smokers and beer drinkers and hell raisers (a Texas term) in our church every Sunday. We honor them as our special guests and genuinely make them feel a part of us. We sometimes allow unsaved people to play in our band and, as a church we look to as a model, on our sports teams and other peripheral areas of service (our aim is to be salt and light to them and by offering the unconditional love and fellowship win them to the Lord.)

While I don’t think our approach to ministry is for everybody, it does work for us. Of course, we are accused by the more conservative religious types of lowering the bar (we think they set the bar too high, see Matt. 23.4-5) and of coddling sinners, we just ignore the criticism and go ahead with what we know God called us to do. It would not work in an established church because, as you said, more conservative church members would not allow themselves to be “ministered to” by a “sinner” (although Jesus allowed one to do so when she washed his feet – an act the religious people found objection with). But we are not finding pre-believers thinking we are “condoning their sin” by allowing them to participate. Quite the contrary, they readily admit their unworthiness (which some more whitewashed “believers” refuse to do but are allowed to play in the band only because they are more skilled at keeping their sins under wraps.) Tehy are grateful for an opportunity to offer their abilities to the Lord. This type of unconditional love is what the Lord offered me while I was yet in my sin and it is what I choose, as His servant, to offer to others who are as yet unsaved.

I guess I’m saying, what works for one church may not work for all.

~Jim

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Interesting observations, LilAngelHeart, who wrote:



I pastor a very unusual church here in East Texas. We decided from the start that our primary target group would be disenfranchised and unchurched Christians, many of whom were the victims of some spiritual abuse that is occurring in some local fellowships in our area and who were made to feel unworthy of fellowship for one reason or another. We have sworn off legalism and called ourself a “user-friendly” church, church done differently. For example, we accept divorced/remarried people into our membership without limiting their service to God, no matter how many times they have been divorced or remarried (as Jesus did with the Samaritan woman at the well.) We have cigarette smokers and beer drinkers and hell raisers (a Texas term) in our church every Sunday. We honor them as our special guests and genuinely make them feel a part of us. We sometimes allow unsaved people to play in our band and, as a church we look to as a model, on our sports teams and other peripheral areas of service (our aim is to be salt and light to them and by offering the unconditional love and fellowship win them to the Lord.)

While I don’t think our approach to ministry is for everybody, it does work for us. Of course, we are accused by the more conservative religious types of lowering the bar (we think they set the bar too high, see Matt. 23.4-5) and of coddling sinners, we just ignore the criticism and go ahead with what we know God called us to do. It would not work in an established church because, as you said, more conservative church members would not allow themselves to be “ministered to” by a “sinner” (although Jesus allowed one to do so when she washed his feet – an act the religious people found objection with). But we are not finding pre-believers thinking we are “condoning their sin” by allowing them to participate. Quite the contrary, they readily admit their unworthiness (which some more whitewashed “believers” refuse to do but are allowed to play in the band only because they are more skilled at keeping their sins under wraps.) Tehy are grateful for an opportunity to offer their abilities to the Lord. This type of unconditional love is what the Lord offered me while I was yet in my sin and it is what I choose, as His servant, to offer to others who are as yet unsaved.

I guess I’m saying, what works for one church may not work for all.

~Jim

I'm not sure the woman who was washing Jesus' feet was still an active prostitute when she washed His feet? I see what you're saying. . .but. . .whould you allow a practicing prostitute minister to the woman of your church and give them training on how to grow closer to God? Is this not putting these people on more dangerous ground if they continue ministering unrepentently before the Lord to the people? If scripture tells us to "lay hands on no man suddenly", meaning to not send unready people out to minister, where would this type of ministry fit? How does allowing the unsaved to minister fit with God's word? Maybe I'm not totally understanding what you are saying.

 

[Svt4Him]

Some churches look down on others for wearing jeans, while some look down for wearing ties. Sad.

1 Corinthians 5

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Now in a church that is not legalistic, are there any qualifications for leaders?

1 Timothy 3

1This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but a deacon is one who serves, and a bishop, or elder, is one who oversees. That's my loose translation, but it seems to me to have some 'legalistic' characteristics.

 

[Jim B]

Q. wrote,

I'm not sure the woman who was washing Jesus' feet was still an active prostitute when she washed His feet? I see what you're saying. . .but. . .whould you allow a practicing prostitute minister to the woman of your church and give them training on how to grow closer to God? Is this not putting these people on more dangerous ground if they continue ministering unrepentently before the Lord to the people? If scripture tells us to "lay hands on no man suddenly", meaning to not send unready people out to minister, where would this type of ministry fit? How does allowing the unsaved to minister fit with God's word? Maybe I'm not totally understanding what you are saying.

Making myself clear on this forum is a real challenge for me. I have ruffled enough feathers.

But, to answer your question, I am certainly not saying that we should use unrepentant sinners as a pool for our ministry team. What I think I am trying to say is that perhaps we should not totally exclude pre-Christians from participation in the church. Of course, I am not saying we should put them in positions of ministry or leadership, but perhaps we can find places of service to those who may be sincerely seeking answers but have not yet arrived. At our church we allow people service at some points of entry even though they are rough around the edges and we have yet to get any negative feedback from anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. It is rare, but at our church we sometimes allow non-believers to help load in and out, set up, attend worship team practice, pass out bulletins, even usher people to a seat. It is a way of showing them that we respect them and, almost without fail, eventually helps leads to their conversion.

As you know, non-believers sometimes think Christians are hypocrites because they work or socialize with church members who wear one face to church and another to work or play. This complaint is, of course, usually just an excuse for many but we have to admit there are times when it is justified. And when they are aware that we are qucik to judge their sin and blind to a member's hypocrisy, it can alienate them, sometimes permanently, from the church.

Some years ago as a pastor of a church near Houston, I allowed our married music director (a strict moralist) to set extremely high standards for choir and orchestra members. One hint of immorality, even in their dress, was enough to exclude them from participation. I allowed it (I am ashamed to admit) and stood by while he ran roughshod over people’s feeling. Within a couple of years he fell ill and was diagnosed with AIDS, probably contacted while he was having a clandestine homosexual affair with another member of the church – right under my nose. Regretfully, he died from his illness. I deservedly had to face the music from those I had allowed him to abuse for breaking his strict dress codes and moral strictures. It helped me to learn that you can’t judge from appearance only and today I am very slow to accept a person’s “spirituality” at face value. Indeed, I am having enough trouble cleaning up my own back yard and maybe that is why I am not too quick to either condone or condemn a person.

But, like I said, I am certainly not recommending our style of ministry to anyone else. It is what God has called us to do and we intend to do whether anyone else does it or not or agrees with it or not. It is working wonderfully for us (at least so far!) and we will continue until we are directed to do otherwise.

Hope that answers your question.

Blessings,
Jim

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Q. wrote,


Hope that answers your question.

Blessings,
Jim

Yes Jim, it did. Thank you.

 

[Wally22]

I disagree with you. A paid musician or pastor is not working for the money, they are serving God. But they do need a house, electricity, and food like any other person. And they should be allowed to go out to eat, or see a movie sometimes like any other person should.

If a person in the church is serving God full time, where should they find the money that they need to live? In the Bible, the priests, and even the temple workers were fed by the people who worshiped at the temple. They did not concern themselves with making money.

I belong to a small church of about 120 people, including our many young children. It would be wrong to expect our pastor to do what he does, while having to worry about making money too. He just could not do it.

I agree that it can be the case that pastors in particular may need to be supported by the church..but in alot of cases pastorsd i know of chose to find work instead..and reply on Gods provision instead of taking money from the church for the service they offer to God. One of the pronlems that can happen with paid pastors particulary is they will preach things people like because if people leave the church or stop paying tithes because of what is said..how will they survive? Im not saying thi is the case in all churches but it can be.

I strongly belive though musicians esspecially since ive never heard of musicians in church who work full time..should be paid.
I see it as a privelidge to serve in this ministry in my church and i know that with alot of musicians when money becomes involves it will be seen more like a gig..then service to God. Its like should people be paid to worship God in church? no of course not..its service

 

[Jim B]

I really admire the creative spelling on this thread, but posts would be easier to understand. if we’d do a spellcheck before sending. … Just a suggestion …

 

[enoch son]

Well here comes the best speller of them all Ha-Ha. I do not disagree with what your church is doing Jim. I've just seen the power come down so to speak, and God cleans them out and up. That His job, thier His people. And I see nothing wrong with someone fallen to the floor and getting up with this I love Jesus smile He is wonderful look on their face.

 

[LynneClomina]

I am fascinated by this subject. As a pastor, let me say I do agree that the laborer is worthy of his hire, whether he be the pastor (for whom this scripture directly applies) or a musician … or for that matter a Sunday School teachers, women’s directors, deacons, church officers, etc. But the fact is, the church can only do what the church can do and most positions are of necessity voluntary. Each church must decide what it can do financially for musicians or anyone else. In the meantime, as with more than half of the pastors in the US, it should be voluntary ministry.

Let me ask a question regarding unsaved people playing in the worship band.

If the church is reaching out to an unsaved person who plays a guitar (or whatever) by inviting him/her to participate, is that wrong? Honestly, we don’t know the personal relationship with the Lord of anyone and it is no guarantee that those who are perceived as “saved” in our band are really, in fact, saved. We can only go by what they show us or tell us. What they do in their secret life is known only to them and God. At this time, unless shown the error of my ways, I have a guitarist in mind who is a seeker but unchurched. I and my lead worshipper are thinking about inviting him to play with our band for a Sunday or two as a way of bridging the gap between him and the church.

What do you think?

Jim

ooooh, i have pretty specific convictions on this one...

a person serving on the worship team is MINISTERING, both to the congregation and to God.... one would not have a non christian preaching on sunday, leading a bible study or a cell, prophecying before the congretation, or teaching in sunday school.... so why in worship? we can prophesy on the instruments.... we are setting an example to the people when we lead worship.... how can a non-christian say in word or deed, "follow me as i follow the Lord"???

 

[LynneClomina]

I disagree with you. A paid musician or pastor is not working for the money, they are serving God. But they do need a house, electricity, and food like any other person. And they should be allowed to go out to eat, or see a movie sometimes like any other person should.

If a person in the church is serving God full time, where should they find the money that they need to live? In the Bible, the priests, and even the temple workers were fed by the people who worshiped at the temple. They did not concern themselves with making money.

I belong to a small church of about 120 people, including our many young children. It would be wrong to expect our pastor to do what he does, while having to worry about making money too. He just could not do it.

amen! my pastor gets only one official day off a week, and it is usually interrupted by some crisis or other... he day is so full of studying, preparing sermons, ministering in some crisis, giving oversight to our church, etc etc etc.... he often gets very little sleep.... he gets a wage that is enough to live off of, but his family of four have made many sacrifices to not burden the church...

its his calling, and just becasue its done for God and not for money does not mean it is easy... yes he should get paid, and he should get paid alot more than he gets now......

 

[LynneClomina]

Q. wrote,



Making myself clear on this forum is a real challenge for me. I have ruffled enough feathers.

But, to answer your question, I am certainly not saying that we should use unrepentant sinners as a pool for our ministry team. What I think I am trying to say is that perhaps we should not totally exclude pre-Christians from participation in the church. Of course, I am not saying we should put them in positions of ministry or leadership, but perhaps we can find places of service to those who may be sincerely seeking answers but have not yet arrived. At our church we allow people service at some points of entry even though they are rough around the edges and we have yet to get any negative feedback from anyone. In fact, quite the opposite. It is rare, but at our church we sometimes allow non-believers to help load in and out, set up, attend worship team practice, pass out bulletins, even usher people to a seat. It is a way of showing them that we respect them and, almost without fail, eventually helps leads to their conversion.

As you know, non-believers sometimes think Christians are hypocrites because they work or socialize with church members who wear one face to church and another to work or play. This complaint is, of course, usually just an excuse for many but we have to admit there are times when it is justified. And when they are aware that we are qucik to judge their sin and blind to a member's hypocrisy, it can alienate them, sometimes permanently, from the church.

Some years ago as a pastor of a church near Houston, I allowed our married music director (a strict moralist) to set extremely high standards for choir and orchestra members. One hint of immorality, even in their dress, was enough to exclude them from participation. I allowed it (I am ashamed to admit) and stood by while he ran roughshod over people’s feeling. Within a couple of years he fell ill and was diagnosed with AIDS, probably contacted while he was having a clandestine homosexual affair with another member of the church – right under my nose. Regretfully, he died from his illness. I deservedly had to face the music from those I had allowed him to abuse for breaking his strict dress codes and moral strictures. It helped me to learn that you can’t judge from appearance only and today I am very slow to accept a person’s “spirituality” at face value. Indeed, I am having enough trouble cleaning up my own back yard and maybe that is why I am not too quick to either condone or condemn a person.

But, like I said, I am certainly not recommending our style of ministry to anyone else. It is what God has called us to do and we intend to do whether anyone else does it or not or agrees with it or not. It is working wonderfully for us (at least so far!) and we will continue until we are directed to do otherwise.

Hope that answers your question.

Blessings,
Jim

hi Jim, i feel our church is very similar to yours in many ways... we allow many who are otherwise rejected or put off from church to participate, in fact they should....

we had a proclaimed athiest in our body, obviously being drawn to GOd but resisting, who was an awesome guitarist... he was included in many ways OTHER than ministering in music on sunday... he was invited to bring his guitar and jam at about every gathering the church had... he was not permitted on the worship team, though, as he did not understand what it was to worship the Lord.... he got saved, and within a few months he was playing on the worhsip team, when he had gotten solidified in his faith...

it is always a danger to put people into any ministry too soon... envy needs to be dealt with, pride can develope, etc etc etc....

if i may say, Jim, please be cautious to not swing to the other extreme.... find the balance...

blessings, Lynne

 

[Jim B]

1 Timothy 5.17 Amplfied
“Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor …”

Honor here means in the sense of “honorarium” (wages, remuneration, as is reflected in the rest of the verse …

“Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.”

Vine’s Expository Dictionary says
"Honor" = "Time" (Noun and Verb) Primarily "a valuing," hence, objectively, (a) "a price paid or received," … (10) to be given to elders that rule well ("double honor"), 1Ti. 5:17 (here the meaning may be an honorarium);

 

[Jim B]

Lynne wrote:

hi Jim, i feel our church is very similar to yours in many ways... we allow many who are otherwise rejected or put off from church to participate, in fact they should....

we had a proclaimed athiest in our body, obviously being drawn to GOd but resisting, who was an awesome guitarist... he was included in many ways OTHER than ministering in music on sunday... he was invited to bring his guitar and jam at about every gathering the church had... he was not permitted on the worship team, though, as he did not understand what it was to worship the Lord.... he got saved, and within a few months he was playing on the worhsip team, when he had gotten solidified in his faith...

it is always a danger to put people into any ministry too soon... envy needs to be dealt with, pride can develope, etc etc etc....

if i may say, Jim, please be cautious to not swing to the other extreme.... find the balance...

blessings, Lynne

Thanks Lynne. I honestly believe we have found the balance. If not, we are moving in the right direction.

\o/

PS. I am gratified to hear of your church's accepting attitude. You should win many to Christ.