Should I sign?

[BigDaddy4]

If I haven't mentioned it yet, it's vital to pray for your spouse.


Asking God to have His will in your lives and your marriage, asking Him to change your hearts, asking Him for His help --whether one wants to stay in the marriage or get out, we're to pray for our enemies, as well as those we find easier to love.


Prayer is vital to any relationship.

No one on here that I know of would doubt that. What is the OP's wife's prayer? For the abuse to stop? For a happy healthy marriage with an abuser? To serve her Lord? The wife was abused. She had enough. She left. She filed for divorce. The OP needs to put working on his issues as his top priority.

 

[DZoolander]

Fireproof is a movie! A highly fictionalized account of putting a marriage back together, made by a group with an agenda. Of course everything was going to work out in the end! Looking to those movies and pop-psychology books to solve marriage problems is giving a lot of people false expectations.

Fact 1 - OP treated his wife like excrement
Fact 2 - OP's wife had enough and left
Fact 3 - Wife filed for divorce.
Fact 4 - The divorce will go through even if he doesn't sign. However, if he doesn't sign, it will not look good for him and probably end up costing him a fortune in legal fees.

Stop relying on fictionalized flights of fancy. You should have done something to change your ways LONG before this. Now, all of a sudden, she leaves and you're all heartbroken. So sad you didn't see this before now.

Exactly.

You know what type of contrition means the most? When you, through no threat, come to realize that maybe you're being a jerk and voluntarily stop.

Being faced with a divorce and then suddenly having an epiphany doesn't really hold much water - and just reeks of the kind of dysfunction that probably drove her away to begin with. Kicking your feet in the sand and saying "I'm not going to sign" is both a futile move and most likely will do nothing but re-enforce her belief in the righteousness of her actions.

She doesn't want to be someone consumed with only what they want - irrespective of how she feels. That path does nothing but confirm the idea.

 

[Ellwood3]

Fireproof is a movie! A highly fictionalized account of putting a marriage back together, made by a group with an agenda. Of course everything was going to work out in the end! Looking to those movies and pop-psychology books to solve marriage problems is giving a lot of people false expectations.

Fact 1 - OP treated his wife like excrement ...."

The over 36,000 people who have left stories who used principles inspired by the story of Fireproof are not fictional. Neither are the thousands who've turned marriages around with the help of ministries that are experienced in that work. Some of those ministries, I've mentioned above.

I think one of the disturbing thing about the answers to this question is the nastiness--the inability to see and have compassion for both sides, and this strange desire to tell people what to do.

You are accountable for your words--we all are. But instead of pointing someone toward God, you assume that marriages with problems are headed for the trash heap.

If you have a hobby of giving people advice, and putting them down in the relative anonymity of the Internet, why not try a safer hobby, like putting your head in a lion's mouth, or sword swallowing?

Because either you're giving God's advice, or your own. And I'm hearing a lot of people's own. And some even assume that many askers just ask to justify what they've already chosen to do, so what does it matter if the advice is bad, assumed that if they won't take better advice anyway, what does it matter? Very dangerous.

The lack of faith is also astonishing. As if God's hands are tied. What should a person, hurt, pray for their spouse? Pray for God's will in their life and your own. Pray for help forgiving, pray for direction, pray for willingness to do God's will in the relationship, pray for your future, for your children, for people to help, pray that God will mold you into something greater and that if it's His will for the marriage to continue, that He continually guide you, and make your ministry together stronger, among other things.


Matthew 12:36-37:

But I tell you that every careless word people speak, they will give an accounting for in the day of judgment. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

 

[HannahT]

I think one of the disturbing thing about the answers to this question is the nastiness--the inability to see and have compassion for both sides, and this strange desire to tell people what to do.

You are accountable for your words--we all are. But instead of pointing someone toward God, you assume that marriages with problems are headed for the trash heap.

Elwood - no offense but you should talk. LOOK at what you wrote?! Then google the word projection.

Look what you are accusing people of? Look what you are assuming?

Telling the man he needs to sit with his own junk, and work on it so he can be a better person - isn't nasty. Its the cold, hard truth that he needs to do. Its clear the poor man hasn't even started.

Telling the man to leave her alone, because he is dangerous in his current state is truth as well. He needs to work on his own poop, and remember you can't 'fireproof' mental issues away. That's the reality of it. Those programs don't make those sort of claims either.

He may seem to say all the right things, but if you read closely? His words don't follow his actions. You and I both know there is scripture for that as well.

No one said that all marriages with problems are going to the trash heap - that is your assumption, and you projected tons of other junk upon others. They didn't agree with you, and you got nasty. Something you accuse others of.

If you seriously feel the spiritual pixie dust programs like Fireproof hand you is going to help the majority of people in trouble that WORK that program? Back it up. 36,000 couples as you know is a very small number, although I am personally thrilled they found peace finally. That doesn't make it a landmark case to fix the world.

Sadly, its people that have their heads up in the clouds that do a huge disservice to those in need of serious help. He has big time personal junk he needs to do in order to help himself first and foremost. Major mental disorders don't cure themselves, and they don't go away in a matter of weeks for the majority of the population. Fireproof program and marriage seminars - if they did do that - would be highly irresponsible. You don't like that reality? I'm sorry. The truth rots at times, and we have to learn how to live with it.

 

[DZoolander]

You see, Ellwood, that's the thing about giving reasonable advice without an agenda.

When you actually listen to someone's circumstance, sometimes you give advice that points in one direction. Sometimes it goes in another. Some people should fight, some people should give up the ghost because fighting will cause more harm than good.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The over 36,000 people who have left stories who used principles inspired by the story of Fireproof are not fictional. Neither are the thousands who've turned marriages around with the help of ministries that are experienced in that work. Some of those ministries, I've mentioned above.

Other than the weirdness of knowing such an exact number who can attribute the saving of their marriage to a book/movie/merchandising machine... The principles in "Fireproof" are actually mainstream pop psychology, employed in personal therapy since the 1970s. It was rebranded and resold as a Christian ideology as a marketing technique... One that worked as the Christian community ate it up.

While I'm sure that people found inspiration in it, maybe even salvaged their marriage in some form, the fact is that people can draw inspiration in anything to save their marriage. Like I know not one, not two, but four couples who attribute the saving of their relationships to principles espoused in "Star Wars." That all being said, it is (in the end) a movie, and a book, born of outdated principle that had been discarded due to it's basic rooting in gender stereotypes and uneven spousal investment into the health of the marriage. To recommend it as a means to save a marriage is about as helpful as me suggesting "Star Wars." To reccomend it as THE means to save a marriage, something that works consistently, it's disingenuous. And for people who want that spiritual key to a healthy marriage, suggesting something rooted not in faith, but outdated pop psychology, presenting this as a spiritual answer... Well, it's a outright lie. And a dumb one at that, as anybody who knows their Bible knows that "Fireproof" and its techniques aren't in there, though some principles can be haphazardly tied back to it for the intrepid folks who like to merchandise faith and those who want to believe it.

I think one of the disturbing thing about the answers to this question is the nastiness--the inability to see and have compassion for both sides, and this strange desire to tell people what to do.

When somebody comes to a forum with a question and a specific desire to hear people's opinions on a matter, it's not exactly random or strange that people give the feedback that was solicited.

You are accountable for your words--we all are. But instead of pointing someone toward God, you assume that marriages with problems are headed for the trash heap.

This isn't a marriage with a problem. It's a marriage that's over in all senses but the legal one, and the question is if he should sign off on the legal aspect. It's a marriage that fell apart after a husband abused (by his admission, I might add) his spouse for a prolonged period, and she needed to break away.

A marriage with a problem is "my husband/wife does x, y, and z... What do I do to overcome it?" When somebody says "I abused my wife, she's gone and has been gone for months, and she notified me the legal paperwork is on it's way, should I sign?" That's not a marriage with a problem, that's a marriage that's over. A marriage that's been in the "trash heap" ever since the moment he turned from husband to abuser and she turned from wife to victim.

So the solutions here seemed pretty reasonable... Point him towards God, but with the understanding that he's going there as a man without a wife, a man who did unacceptable things that lead to the demise of his marriage.

If you have a hobby of giving people advice, and putting them down in the relative anonymity of the Internet, why not try a safer hobby, like putting your head in a lion's mouth, or sword swallowing?

Is that an attempt at exemplifying the tolerance and Godly behavior you demand of others? Because from here, it just looks like you being snarky.

Because either you're giving God's advice, or your own. And I'm hearing a lot of people's own. And some even assume that many askers just ask to justify what they've already chosen to do, so what does it matter if the advice is bad, assumed that if they won't take better advice anyway, what does it matter? Very dangerous.

You do realize that goes for you as well... Right? You're giving your own advice, you just attempt to justify it by kind of picking and choosing what you like out of the Bible that justifies your own personal agenda as you see it and as you believe that God sees it. And you're doing so to serve your own pride... In your advice, you manage to not only inflict upon all of us your opinion, but the opinion that God blesses your advice more than others, and thus you're more Godly than the rest of us. So you give everybody your opinion as well as meet a self-satisfying and prideful need to exemplify yourself over others, as well as express that you feel your advice, being more correct and thus more Godly, means you're better off spiritually than the rest of us.

So... Is this advice given to help the situation, or is this advice given so you can pat yourself on the back for just how enlightened you are? Considering you're spending more time rebuking others for their apparent "less spiritual" answers and are appalled that nobody is as enlightened as you are, I think the answer is obvious.

The lack of faith is also astonishing. As if God's hands are tied. What should a person, hurt, pray for their spouse? Pray for God's will in their life and your own. Pray for help forgiving, pray for direction, pray for willingness to do God's will in the relationship, pray for your future, for your children, for people to help, pray that God will mold you into something greater and that if it's His will for the marriage to continue, that He continually guide you, and make your ministry together stronger, among other things.

Again, not advice for anybody... It's a put down for people you feel aren't as Godly as you and a simultaneous boost of your own vanity for being so much more enlightened than everybody else.

Matthew 12:36-37:

But I tell you that every careless word people speak, they will give an accounting for in the day of judgment. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

That does run your way as well, including on if on the day of judgment God wants to know why you advocated why a woman who escaped her abuser should reconcile with him in God's name.

 

[ProudMomxmany]

Fireproof is a movie! A highly fictionalized account of putting a marriage back together, made by a group with an agenda. Of course everything was going to work out in the end! Looking to those movies and pop-psychology books to solve marriage problems is giving a lot of people false expectations.

Fact 1 - OP treated his wife like excrement ...."



The over 36,000 people who have left stories who used principles inspired by the story of Fireproof are not fictional. Neither are the thousands who've turned marriages around with the help of ministries that are experienced in that work. Some of those ministries, I've mentioned above.

I think one of the disturbing thing about the answers to this question is the nastiness--the inability to see and have compassion for both sides, and this strange desire to tell people what to do.

You are accountable for your words--we all are. But instead of pointing someone toward God, you assume that marriages with problems are headed for the trash heap.

If you have a hobby of giving people advice, and putting them down in the relative anonymity of the Internet, why not try a safer hobby, like putting your head in a lion's mouth, or sword swallowing?

Because either you're giving God's advice, or your own. And I'm hearing a lot of people's own. And some even assume that many askers just ask to justify what they've already chosen to do, so what does it matter if the advice is bad, assumed that if they won't take better advice anyway, what does it matter? Very dangerous.

The lack of faith is also astonishing. As if God's hands are tied. What should a person, hurt, pray for their spouse? Pray for God's will in their life and your own. Pray for help forgiving, pray for direction, pray for willingness to do God's will in the relationship, pray for your future, for your children, for people to help, pray that God will mold you into something greater and that if it's His will for the marriage to continue, that He continually guide you, and make your ministry together stronger, among other things.


Matthew 12:36-37:

But I tell you that every careless word people speak, they will give an accounting for in the day of judgment. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

I've been married for over 30 years. My marriage was sorely tested in many ways. However...the OPs marriage is dead and gone. She wised up and left due to HIS abuse.

"Fireproof" and other so-called Christian books purport to have ALL the answers to fix troubled marriages. I've read a few of them and find them full of platitudes and baloney.

The OP admitted to abusing his wife. He had many opportunities DURING the marriage to get his head straight and chose not to do that. My husband did much the same thing at the beginning of our marriage and I told him that his behavior was unacceptable. I did leave him. I told him that I wouldn't come back unless he changed his behavior. He took proactive steps right then and there to change. I saw the changes and we reconciled.

So...now you know where I am coming from. Unfortunately, so many have been sold a bill of goods and believe that baloney like Fireproof and other so-called Christian pop-psychology books are THE answer for every situation. The book "Love and Respect" purports to have the sure-fire cure for troubled marriages. I read it. Its full of baloney stereotypes and doesn't deal with the problems of infidelity or abuse. Millions of people part with their hard-earned cash to buy these books and then realize that these books are not the answer.

And, if the OP was standing right in front of me, I'd say the same thing. However, my language probably would be significantly more colorful.

Like I said, I've been married a VERY long time. We've walked a tough road in many ways. However, if he abused me, I'd be so gone it wouldn't even be funny. If he abused my children, I'd be gone. I have been blessed to be married to a man who strives to keep a godly attitude towards me and towards our children. We have counseled our adult children in their own relationships. My husband threatened to punch one of our daughters' boyfriends out because he raised a hand to our daughter. Its a darn good thing that boy ran out of the house because my husband probably would have ended up in jail.

So...you spew platitudes and pop-psychology. I advise based on reality. I know that God can fix things...IF the persons involved are willing to realize their sin. The OP didn't...he still doesn't.

 

[DZoolander]

Ya know what always astonishes me...is the way some Christians talk about marriage/divorce - and the things they seem to believe about the state of marriage.

Listening to many people talk - "marriage" is in crisis...people have fallen away from God...people are getting divorces left and right...people don't take the commitment seriously anymore, people don't try to fix things, etc... Dunno about you - but what I observe in the world is far different.

To be honest, in my personal life, I do not know a single person in the midst of a divorce. I know people who HAVE divorced, obviously, but there's not a single person I know that is in the midst of one.

I know two people who are in troubled marriages - and IMHO - they both are prime candidates for divorce. I spoke about one couple in an earlier post - and they have a particularly toxic relationship/are fundamentally disrespectful to each other - and I don't see much hope of them actually fixing it. There is NO effort being made from half of the equation.

Then I know another couple... They (like the first) got married because the woman got pregnant. They're pretty young (early 20's). The guy went to work for his father-in-law - and after five months of working at his company embezzled several thousand dollars & stole a car from the company before skipping town and leaving his wife/child behind.

That guy is pretty much a first class jerk toward his wife as well, letting her know in addition to his felonious behavior he doesn't want to be a father/husband.

Are either of those people pursuing divorce?

Nope.

The first one (the couple I've addressed before) - they'll probably end up in divorce - but not without her having exhausted all avenues and having subjected herself to years of humiliation before it gets to just be too much. It ain't exactly like she's running off to the attorney's office at the first sign of trouble. Instead - she's gonna stick around for quite some time before he proves himself to be utterly unyielding and unworkable as a partner.

The second couple - with the thief - is she filing for divorce? Nope. Against the will of her family (who are understandably quite upset with how he's stolen from them) - she's managed to track him down and has uprooted herself/their child chasing him down across several states in hopes of "reconciling".

Most likely she'll stick around long enough for him to steal some more money or something, and like the first couple give him unending opportunities to humiliate her/steal from her family until he does something like bang another woman...which will hurt her enough to finally leave.

That's how people are. Nobody takes marriage lightly. Even when situations suck - people stick with them. Nobody is getting divorced because their partner forgets to put the toilet seat down. Nobody is getting divorced over trivial matters.

So - when you hear things like "you're pointing people in the wrong direction" or "where's the Godly message of telling people to fight for the marriage" - I don't frankly have any idea what they're talking about. Everybody fights for their marriage - often far longer than they really should.

 

[ValleyGal]

So - when you hear things like "you're pointing people in the wrong direction" or "where's the Godly message of telling people to fight for the marriage" - I don't frankly have any idea what they're talking about. Everybody fights for their marriage - often far longer than they really should.

I would venture to say that's what happened with this couple in the OP. Personally, I was hit by a man I married. The first was "accident" and I tried to believe him. The second time was no accident and I told him to move out and we needed to go for counselling. Third time and I was in the courthouse filing for divorce. All that in a a few very short months. He lived with me for one month and I filed for divorce two months later.

How long did the OP put up with it? Six years. I don't think anyone can say she didn't try to somehow make her marriage work. I'm sure she prayed for her husband. I'm sure she struggled with ending her marriage. Ending marriage does not come easily.

The discussion turned to prayer. If this OP prays that his marriage is restored and his ex wife prays that she can stay as far away from him as she can, whose do you think God will honour? Does it mean God will pick one and favour them over the other? I don't think so. But he promises he will never leave us, whether the couple chooses to be together or not.

In this situation, the OP does not have a choice. The only choice he has is whether he will sign the papers in his wife's best interest, or if he will not sign the papers and make her life more miserable than he already made it. Either way, the divorce will still go through.

 

[mjmcmillan]

If he's guilty of domestic violence, he's got worse trouble on his plate than just whether to sign divorce papers or not. She can take him to the cleaners, and the worse part is that everybody who knows about it will say she's right. He needs to get himself straightened out, or the same thing will happen again.

If a man can't control himself, how can he possibly run a godly household??

 

[Ellwood3]

The book of James has a useful section on the tongue. Especially around James chapter 3, where it tells us the tongue is like a spark that can light a fire.



So the question remains, should someone sign divorce papers without assurance that God is for this? And what is at stake?

God puts people together in marriage, in part, to accomplish work for Him that neither can do as well alone. And He takes marriage seriously.

Will a woman go through life unmarried or scarred or angry or feeling justified, who might have better had a lifetime from a husband who loved her when they married, who saved himself for her, who has gotten into counseling? If they get back together, will abuse continue, or will it become one of many successes? Or will she find she is now with the best possible husband for her, who cherishes her?

What is God's plan for their lives?

We--not one of us--knows God's plans for each other's lives, nor do we know His plans fully for our own.

Has a particular couple tried a period of separation each praying for the other and their relationship, increasingly willing to follow God's lead? Have they (either one or both together) spent time at one or more marriage conferences or marriage intensives or with other ministries? Has the counseling been Christian counseling--or secular?

What does God want? Those who advise differently from God, oppose Him. They are responsible, and will give account for it.

Even a secular counselor, more familiar with a situation, will usually not tell a couple what to do.

A Christian counselor usually will direct someone to God. Toward a period of separation rather than pushing toward divorce. Toward prayer, and towards a richer commitment to God and their spouse.

Ungodly advice, based on reason alone, or the personal preferences of strangers, can be found on secular web sites.

When God enters the equation, things can and do change.

 

[bhsmte]

The book of James has a useful section on the tongue. Especially around James chapter 3, where it tells us the tongue is like a spark that can light a fire.



So the question remains, should someone sign divorce papers without assurance that God is for this? And what is at stake?

God puts people together in marriage, in part, to accomplish work for Him that neither can do as well alone. And He takes marriage seriously.

Will a woman go through life unmarried or scarred or angry or feeling justified, who might have better had a lifetime from a husband who loved her when they married, who saved himself for her, who has gotten into counseling? If they get back together, will abuse continue, or will it become one of many successes? Or will she find she is now with the best possible husband for her, who cherishes her?

What is God's plan for their lives?

We--not one of us--knows God's plans for each other's lives, nor do we know His plans fully for our own.

Has a particular couple tried a period of separation each praying for the other and their relationship, increasingly willing to follow God's lead? Have they (either one or both together) spent time at one or more marriage conferences or marriage intensives or with other ministries? Has the counseling been Christian counseling--or secular?

What does God want? Those who advise differently from God, oppose Him. They are responsible, and will give account for it.

Even a secular counselor, more familiar with a situation, will usually not tell a couple what to do.

A Christian counselor usually will direct someone to God. Toward a period of separation rather than pushing toward divorce. Toward prayer, and towards a richer commitment to God and their spouse.

Ungodly advice, based on reason alone, or the personal preferences of strangers, can be found on secular web sites.

When God enters the equation, things can and do change.

No good counselor directs someone to divorce. A good counselor will help each person to do what is right for them, considering the reality of the circumstances and will leave it up to each person if that means divorce.

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if a wife goes to a christian counselor and tells them of abuse from the husband, that counselor is obliged by law to report the abuse to authorities. If they don't, they can and will lose their license to practice.

 

[HannahT]

He didn't read anything it seems from the poster in question either bhsmte.

His question about her remaining single afterwords? Poster already answered in the positive that she would. How quick people forget those parts when they place marriage before the individuals.

Paul is also a great example of one that did God's work single, and alone. Jesus did as well. Scripture also states that the status of being single is preferred, because you do not obligations as married people do. So, the statement about them not being able to do his work as well alone? It contradicts what the bible states, and also shows certain crowds seem to place 'marriage' above all else. Its a nice twist of manipulation.

From the man's own story they have separated I think I read 6 times, and only this last time - when he broke the camel's back - did the man go to counseling. The saddest part is he shouldn't have been in mission work for all those years when he clearly knew he didn't have his house in order. Notice that most will ignore that part as well, because 'marriage' is the most important in this line of work...not the individuals. Once again - against scripture. The people that helped run that mission with them should have removed him YEARS ago - sadly to me it shows a clear lack of care.

The man clearly doesn't know how to cherish himself, or his life enough yet. He also has some pretty big mental issues that Ellwood is ignoring - I would assume on purpose. Because you know...marriage is more important.

It has always amazed me how people can ignore mental issues, abuse, evil, etc so they can claim its God's way. God never asked for denial.

Let show the entire portion of scripture that he mentioned:

3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.


Now lets consider we have one person that clearly admits the harm he does to his spouse, and has done for years shamelessly. Now claims once she leaves him - once again - change happened. Being human like the rest of us? Major change like that doesn't take weeks, but years if they are dedicated. Humans just don't do change well, and unless it comes to the spiritual pixie dust people when speaking of marriage. Proverbs if full of passages about the man's behavior...but I guess Elwood can ignore that, because 'marriage' is more important.

She has asked him to leave her be, and keep it business like. Yet, if you notice he knows ALL these things about her - while living 1,000 miles away. That's just spooky, and I have no doubt he is hounding her.

Yes, his tongue corrupted his whole body, and his whole course of his life is on fire.

The scripture would apply to him, and not those that seem to be wanting to face the reality that this poster is a dangerous man.

God can use us all just as we are, and will use us again as we grow. Our service is not as limited as Ellwood would have us think - if again we aren't married. He places all his faith in marriage, and yet it seems to be little faith when it comes to what God can do in people's lifes.

Fireproof and the marriage seminars are good for ordinary - everyday martial issues. Sadly, that isn't what we are talking about here.

Quite honestly? I'm not all that impressed with Fireproof myself. Marriage seminars that deal with marriage tend to want to place people in boxes, and don't do well with customized issues like this. They aren't prepared for that, and they don't claim they are. Yet, that is also completely ignored.

What Ellwood sees as all gloom and doom - I see as an opportunity for hope. The poster might actually take his issue seriously, and do the work he needs to. If he doesn't he will continue to harm others as well - that's the reality of it. Right now he isn't a safe person.

The poster is talking the good talk, but it takes time to see if he can walk it. Patience and consequences aren't good aspects of the marriage at all costs including dangerous spouse crowds. To me it shows a lack of faith. I mean even the bible asks us to wait to see if we can judge the fruit they claim is there. lol it doesn't say we should just take their word for it!

 

[Ellwood3]

I am not surprised the “divorce pushers” try to attack.


What is a “divorce pusher”?

We know what a drug pusher is. A drug pusher offers a drug to someone wanting a solution to their pain. That drug may appear to be an easy solution. But it is in truth expensive. It can and will likely hurt them, even ruin them.

Doing drugs doesn’t just affect that one person, it affects others. Doing a divorce is like that. One divorce can impact thousands of people.

Divorce pushers aren’t concerned with that. They go to someone hurting, whose marriage is painful, and they offer what appears to be an easy solution: “Here’s a divorce and it will make things better. Sign these papers and change your life.” But that can be an expensive “solution” that can take someone out of God’s will.

Divorce may be the only option they can see.



The idea that someone might wait until they are certain God is behind the divorce makes them angry.


I say, don’t buy the Divorce Pushers’ product—their opinions and advice.

They aren’t telling you to follow God’s will; they’re telling you to follow their own.

They aren’t giving you resources so you can better find God’s guidance; in some cases, they even argue against you finding people or materials to help create a strong and holy marriage: they want you to buy what they’re selling. They oppose the idea that marriage is holy and God can bring healing.

They aren’t encouraging you to pray for your spouse and your marriage because prayer doesn’t factor into their solution: Why call on God when (they assume) nothing can be done to help anyway?


Trust this: God knows whether you need to divorce or not -- and when.

Don’t tolerate the divorce pushers.

 

[Ellwood3]

.... Our service is not as limited as Ellwood would have us think - if again we aren't married. He places all his faith in marriage, and yet it seems to be little faith when it comes to what God can do in people's lifes.

What Ellwood sees as all gloom and doom - I see as an opportunity for hope.


I don't see divorce as "all gloom and doom." Sometimes it's a life saver. Sometimes, it's--I absolutely believe--God's will.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I am not surprised the “divorce pushers” try to attack.

Oh brother.

Nobody is telling this guy divorce because it's easier, cheaper, or will make his life better.

People are saying that after years of abusing his wife, by his own admission, that he should not continue to perpetuate that abusive, controlling behavior by not signing the divorce papers. This isn't a case of "should he or shouldn't he" get a divorce. It's a case of "it's coming because the marriage is over,s he's gone, she's not coming back... Should I sign and get it done or should I prolong the misery as long as possible, not because I want to reconcile, but because suddenly I feel that it's immoral to sign the papers I agreed to sign (though had no moral issues with abusing my wife for several years)."

 

[DZoolander]

I don't see divorce as "all gloom and doom." Sometimes it's a life saver. Sometimes, it's--I absolutely believe--God's will.

Have you ever advised that you thought divorce was a good idea?

 

[Ellwood3]

Why would it impress anyone positively if I said I have advised people to divorce? Remember, in this thread, I haven't advised anyone not to divorce.

What I have said is to be clear what you are doing is God's will. Take the time needed. Wait on the Lord. Let Him reveal in His own time. Follow the light He gives you. Be willing to work with experts in Christian marriage and divorce--especially those who've been through it themselves. And don't give up or be pushed into anything unless you are certain it's God's will.

The only person who can advise someone either way has direction from God specifically for some couple.

In the absence of that, what we can do is pray and encourage both to pray for each other (even if it's "Lord, I hate my spouse. I want a divorce NOW. Please let me out of the terrible marriage. But if it's Your will I continue, and that You bring healing, than help me take the step needed to do my part." Or: "Lord, I don't even know how this is possible to think this marriage could ever get better. I've messed up, what will keep me from doing it again? It seems hopeless and my spouse hates me. I even hate myself sometimes. But You don't hate me. Help me to know what You would like me to do. Guide me toward the people and resources I need to find help. And if it's your will this marriage continue, will you please help me become an excellent husband? In both Your eyes and my spouse's? Help me to change. Change my spouse's heart and my own. Please help me to do what You want ....")


Change commonly starts will honest prayer. And--being willing to do God's will is usually needed to get His direction (a prayer like, "God, I sure don't even want to think about doing Your will, but help me to change. Help me to want Your will and to do it, no matter what it is").

A prayer like that disturbs the devil.

So if the issue is, would I ever recommend divorce? Advise it? If God asked me to, yes. But more often, God asks me, and I think all of us, to point people towards Himself, and let a couple work through the process.

 

[Ellwood3]

Elwood - no offense but you should talk. LOOK at what you wrote?! Then google the word projection.

Look what you are accusing people of? Look what you are assuming?

....If you seriously feel the spiritual pixie dust programs like Fireproof hand you is going to help the majority of people in trouble that WORK that program? Back it up. 36,000 couples as you know is a very small number, although I am personally thrilled they found peace finally. That doesn't make it a landmark case to fix the world.



Following God is not “spiritual pixie dust.” If you are a follower of Christ—as opposed to simply believing a creed of some type—why oppose leaving things in God’s hands, or characterize Biblically-based programs in a derogatory fashion?

To God, 36,000 is not "a very small number."

To God every person matters, every couple counts. And that number is, of course, a small percentage of those helped, not a total.

Not surprising that those who begin to ask God for His help, to change themselves and their spouse, and begin to put love into practice, commonly have improvement. A lot of people never saw a good marriage growing up. Marriage work can and does, often, help, when God is leading it.


I can't agree with your diagnosing others. First because you lack credentials, and if you had them you would not do it online. Second because of your absence of compassion.

"...I am personally thrilled..." you say, HannahT.

No, you're not. That's sarcasm--one means to wrestle with people verbally, to control them, and it is a form of verbal abuse.

Why be angered by the idea that someone might wait to sign divorce papers until they are certain it is God's choice? Separation gives emotions time to settle, and time for people find strength and resources, and time to find God's will. It gives time to pray. Why rush people?

I believe Jesus died on the cross for every single person. And that He would have gone to the cross for you alone. One counts to God.

Who are you, or who is any of us to shut down God's process for finding His will?

 

[bhsmte]

Elwood - no offense but you should talk. LOOK at what you wrote?! Then google the word projection.

Look what you are accusing people of? Look what you are assuming?

....If you seriously feel the spiritual pixie dust programs like Fireproof hand you is going to help the majority of people in trouble that WORK that program? Back it up. 36,000 couples as you know is a very small number, although I am personally thrilled they found peace finally. That doesn't make it a landmark case to fix the world.






Following God is not “spiritual pixie dust.” If you are a follower of Christ—as opposed to simply believing a creed of some type—why oppose leaving things in God’s hands, or characterize Biblically-based programs in a derogatory fashion?

To God, 36,000 is not "a very small number."

To God every person matters, every couple counts. And that number is, of course, a small percentage of those helped, not a total.

Not surprising that those who begin to ask God for His help, to change themselves and their spouse, and begin to put love into practice, commonly have improvement. A lot of people never saw a good marriage growing up. Marriage work can and does, often, help, when God is leading it.


I can't agree with your diagnosing others. First because you lack credentials, and if you had them you would not do it online. Second because of your absence of compassion.

"...I am personally thrilled..." you say, HannahT.

No, you're not. That's sarcasm--one means to wrestle with people verbally, to control them, and it is a form of verbal abuse.

Why be angered by the idea that someone might wait to sign divorce papers until they are certain it is God's choice? Separation gives emotions time to settle, and time for people find strength and resources, and time to find God's will. It gives time to pray. Why rush people?

I believe Jesus died on the cross for every single person. And that He would have gone to the cross for you alone. One counts to God.

Who are you, or who is any of us to shut down God's process for finding His will?

Your responses have ignored one important piece; the abused wife.

In other words, it may not be up to whether he wants to sign or not, if the wife decides to never put herself in the position of being abused again.