Should I sign?

[Ellwood3]

John chapter 8, verses 1-11

When Jesus was at the temple, scribes and Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery. They said, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. The Law of Moses gave the order to stone such women. What do you say?”

They wanted to trap Him. If He said ‘be merciful and don’t stone her,’ they would say He was teaching people not to follow the Law. If He condemned her, they could say He lacked mercy—and claim it was His teaching to kill such people.

Instead of being trapped, Jesus bent down and wrote something on the ground. Then He said: “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”


One by one, they dropped their stones.

They left. Jesus asked the women, where they were, asking, “Has no one condemned you?”

She told Him no one had. And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”


Are you without sin? Do you ever verbally abuse others? Too many here have been gleefully throwing stones, as if they themselves are pure.

My first post, in this thread mentioned that some of these responses are just not Christ-like. One reason is the absence of compassion. We each must remember when we talk about the mistakes of others we have our own, and where it comes to our tongues, not one of us is perfect.



Each of us has trouble controlling, always controlling, our tongue.



God brings hope to desperation.

 

[Ellwood3]

This is my opinion.

In situations like this, it is not always a good thing to seek advice of outsiders or even friends to tell you what to do. Getting support is one thing, but only you and your wife (with possibly the support of further counseling) can determine what the best path is.

I agree. It’s not that it’s a poor idea to seek advice and opinions. But there needs to be a means to evaluate them. For all we know, someone who claims to be a Christian lady in Great Britain might be a kid playing hooky from school, who lives in the Bronx.

Anyone can call themselves Christian. There might be all kinds of unbelievers on this site misrepresenting themselves as Christians. How can one evaluate the answers?

In part, one way to evaluate is to look at the answers and see whether the poster has placed him or herself above the original poster who began this thread.

Who has judged anyone as being incapable of positive change even with the help of God? That’s both a put-down, and shows no faith.

Someone has acknowledged a sin (falling short) in the use of their tongues. Who has enjoyed rock-throwing?

It doesn’t really matter much if those who’ve done this show a cross or say they are Christians—can you tell they follow Him?

The only thing I disagree with, in this quote from bhsmte, is "only you and your wife (with possibly the support of further counseling) can determine what the best path is."

No. A husband and wife may well not know what to do. It's like walking down a dark path. It needs God's light on it. God alone can lead. We don't see as God sees. Further counsel, especially with Christian ministries specializing in these things and wrapping it in prayer are needed.

 

[Ellwood3]

Robert Morris of The Blessed Life, like I said previously, is doing 8 shows about Words: Life or Death right now.

Thanksgiving week, 2013, he did one where he talked about learning to “Pause, Ponder and Pray” before speaking.

That teaching can be viewed, free, online on TheBlessedLife (can’t post the link yet—still a newbie on this site, but type in "Robert Morris the blessed life", and you’ll find it, and click “Watch” to watch them).

Morris had a problem with his mouth when he was younger, often offending people.

He tells a story in this talk I think it’s titled Bridling the Tongue), about when he was younger he had been saved, had recommitted his life several times, and even was baptized more than once. But he didn’t “bridle his tongue.”

James 1:26

“If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, that person’s religion is worthless.”


Since then, with Freedom work and other effort, he realized he had rejection issues, and felt like he might as well say what he wanted and be rejected early, rather than later in the relationship.

But back then, Robert offended people often. A pastor befriended him. Once, the pastor told Robert he had offended some people. Robert was surprised. He thought he had been on his best behavior. No, they were offended, the pastor told him, then said,

Robert, maybe you’ve never laid your insecurity on the cross.

Robert’s response was, maybe I’ve never laid anything on the cross.

They prayed for Robert to do that, and he said he felt joy like God reached down and picked him up.


What does it mean to be a Christian? Is it a set of beliefs? A lifestyle that involves going to church?

Have you, whoever you are, reading this—have you ever laid everything on the cross?


This thread is about a man whose tongue has led to problems with his wife, who has been answered by people—who are also guilty of not ruling their tongues.

Have you laid it all on the cross?

 

[Ellwood3]

Hi everyone,

My wife and I have been separated for 3.5 months and she has the divorce papers in her hand and said she will send them to me this week. Should I sign?

We are both devout believers. There has been no adultery. We were both virgins when we got married. Our first kiss was on our wedding day. We married b/c of our similar calling: to serve God overseas as missionaries. We went overseas and our marriage imploded. I was emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive towards her by making her feel bad about herself, minimizing, controlling her, blame shifting, discounting, etc. When we came back to the states, it didn't get any better because I was not able to understand why I was like that and didn't see the root causes of my behavior. She had left several times before for a few days and one time for 3 weeks, only to come back, hoping for change, but I always reverted back to my past behaviors. She got us to see counselors, but I ended up blaming her for everything and the counselors bought my deception. So after having her emotional reserves completely spend, she said she saw no other way except divorce and our separation started 3.5 months ago.

Since then, I have been completely broken and through revelations and excellent counseling, I have been able to understand myself for the first time and see how my childhood trauma made me so insecure as an adult and through the H.S. found security in Him. It's been life changing. But my wife feels like it's too late and that she's just too badly damaged to give it another shot. Many, many friends have tried to dissuade her but her reply is this: "suppose you have a babysitter molest your kids. You, as a Christian, can forgive them, but will you ever allow that babysitter near your kids again? That's how I feel about my husband." She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce. Mainly...

1 Tim 5:8. "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." Her rationale is that overseas, a few times, I did not get her the proper food and medicine when she needed it because of my neglect. This is true.

Exodus 21:10-11. "If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." Her rationale is that because the slave wife is free to leave when not being taken care of, then the free Jewish woman has equal rights.

Also, she is REALLY into God's justice now. She feels like she has forgiven me too many times without consequences for me and that divorce needs to be a consequence in our situation. She referenced how God allowed David and Bathsheba's baby to die as justice. She also mentioned how God allowed generations of Israelites to die because of His justice. So she feels like she needs to divorce me for justice.

Neither of us are planning to get remarried. I fully believe even if the divorce is finalized, she won't get remarried because Biblical grounds for remarriage is a lot less ambiguous than for divorce and she loves God and the scriptures.

If the divorce is finalized, I will still consider myself to be married to her and will continue to wear my wedding ring. I will continue to pray and hope for restoration, no matter how long it takes as this is a covenant and not a contract. I don't know if I'll be able to continue to do that if she remarries, but I don't think she ever will.

With all that said, should I sign? I feel like divorce is a sin. But one of her primary complaints against me is my disrespect of her, which is true. Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest. But since then, I've studied the scriptures a ton about divorce and feel like it's a sin.


Any ideas?

(The boldfaced and blued emphasis is mine.)

This is the original post.

It is so rare to have someone acknowledge their mistakes. He does that. He sought counseling. He's honest in acknowledging things that are painful to acknowledge. So with God, could these two try again? Or should he rush to sign the papers?

One thing interesting to me in the similarity between Robert Morris's recent story, about insecurity being involved in being a verbal abuser, and the one above.

So what about that abused spouse? She has the same need to follow God's will as her spouse does. To seek God's will. She hadn't even done that, yet. It can take time for someone to stop looking to justify what seems good to them that they've already decided to do--and to seek God instead.

The wait is at least as much to benefit the abused wife--who believed she was led to this marriage--as the abused (childhood trauma) husband.

The question as always is what does God want them to do, and let them have the time, without pressure to find that.

 

[BigDaddy4]

(The boldfaced and blued emphasis is mine.)

This is the original post.

It is so rare to have someone acknowledge their mistakes. He does that. He sought counseling. He's honest in acknowledging things that are painful to acknowledge. So with God, could these two try again? Or should he rush to sign the papers?

One thing interesting to me in the similarity between Robert Morris's recent story, about insecurity being involved in being a verbal abuser, and the one above.

So what about that abused spouse? She has the same need to follow God's will as her spouse does. To seek God's will. She hadn't even done that, yet. It can take time for someone to stop looking to justify what seems good to them that they've already decided to do--and to seek God instead.

Uh, incorrect.

From the OP: "She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce."

The wait is at least as much to benefit the abused wife--who believed she was led to this marriage--as the abused (childhood trauma) husband.

The question as always is what does God want them to do, and let them have the time, without pressure to find that.

Facts:

1. Divorce is not a sin, as the OP seems to think. It's a choice. Her choice. The choice of the victim he abused!! God's word allows for divorce. Any actions she chooses to take is between her and the Lord, not the OP and certainly not any of us.

2. He promised her not to contest it (Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest.). Now he's going back on his word. Why should she trust him now? How do you rationalize that moral dilema?

An abuser going back on his word not to contest. Hmmmmm. Big red flag. Sign the paperwork and let any reconciliation be the work of God, not the abuser.

 

[LinkH]

I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just responding to the OP. So I hope my comments aren't too old to be of any use.

Hi everyone,

My wife and I have been separated for 3.5 months and she has the divorce papers in her hand and said she will send them to me this week. Should I sign?

We are both devout believers. There has been no adultery. We were both virgins when we got married. Our first kiss was on our wedding day. We married b/c of our similar calling: to serve God overseas as missionaries. We went overseas and our marriage imploded. I was emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive towards her by making her feel bad about herself, minimizing, controlling her, blame shifting, discounting, etc. When we came back to the states, it didn't get any better because I was not able to understand why I was like that and didn't see the root causes of my behavior. She had left several times before for a few days and one time for 3 weeks, only to come back, hoping for change, but I always reverted back to my past behaviors. She got us to see counselors, but I ended up blaming her for everything and the counselors bought my deception. So after having her emotional reserves completely spend, she said she saw no other way except divorce and our separation started 3.5 months ago.

Since then, I have been completely broken and through revelations and excellent counseling, I have been able to understand myself for the first time and see how my childhood trauma made me so insecure as an adult and through the H.S. found security in Him. It's been life changing. But my wife feels like it's too late and that she's just too badly damaged to give it another shot. Many, many friends have tried to dissuade her but her reply is this: "suppose you have a babysitter molest your kids. You, as a Christian, can forgive them, but will you ever allow that babysitter near your kids again? That's how I feel about my husband." She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce. Mainly...

I just wanted to say that was one of the most humble-sounding, self-reflective, transparent posts I've seen on this sort of topic.

1 Tim 5:8. "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." Her rationale is that overseas, a few times, I did not get her the proper food and medicine when she needed it because of my neglect. This is true.

Exodus 21:10-11. "If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." Her rationale is that because the slave wife is free to leave when not being taken care of, then the free Jewish woman has equal rights.

She sounds rather legalistic at this, trying to find a legal argument to justify herself. The Pharisees and the scholars they followed could be rather expert at finding a way to interpret the law to justify their behavior, instead of just doing what God wanted them to do. Christians can fall into the same trap.

If I were to argue back with her, I would ask her who she is to judge whether she has gotten the food, clothing, and marital rights she deserved. Has she cheated her husband of his 'marital rights' during the period of separation? Who is she to judge? If you were feeding her, but didn't give her some food she desired, how can she argue, you didn't feed her. Does it say you have to feed your wife Salisbury steak instead of fried rice? And where is part about medicine in the verse?

Has she considered that missionaries go abroad willing to risk giving up some basic comforts, even perhaps sacrificing their own lives? Were you trying to make every little penny count so you could continue to provide with what you had, or were you maliciously trying to make her suffer from some illness?

The Jews would have tried such a case before judges, priests, or elders of the people or some other recognized judge. The Bible talks about taking people before 'Elohim' (or elohim) when talking about judgment. The wife didn't get to judge her own case, and neither did the husband. Would she be willing to go before a pastor to judge the case, or some other believer rather than filing through the secular courts (I Corinthians 6.) If the church decided you should reconcile, would she be willing to submit.

If you haven't signed yet, you could point this out, say her certificate of divorce isn't valid according to the Old Testament, and ask to have your case 'tried' before a church leader or congregation of faithful believers. What about your missionary sending agency or church?

Also, she is REALLY into God's justice now. She feels like she has forgiven me too many times without consequences for me and that divorce needs to be a consequence in our situation. She referenced how God allowed David and Bathsheba's baby to die as justice. She also mentioned how God allowed generations of Israelites to die because of His justice. So she feels like she needs to divorce me for justice.

I question whether that is justice. Is she a Jew or Gentile? God did give Israelite's some laws about marrying concubines. What did the Lord say to the church? To wives he said, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, and be reconciled to her husband.

If she wants to go with Old Testament law, a female initiated divorce didn't exist. The wife would need the husband's writing of divorcement for it to be valid. In the case of the concubine that wasn't provided for, judges would try to compel the man to divorce her if they thought she needed a divorce. He needed to sign the document. I've read the only female initiated divorce there was record of was Herodias' divorce from Philip, of which the prophet John the Baptist said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" and Scripture refers to her as his brother Philip's wife. (That has the whole incest issue involved in it.)

So if she wants to go by the Old Testament Law, she is not doing it. As in many areas, when it comes to marriage, Christ gave a higher standard than what was previously presented explicitly in the Law of Moses.

Neither of us are planning to get remarried. I fully believe even if the divorce is finalized, she won't get remarried because Biblical grounds for remarriage is a lot less ambiguous than for divorce and she loves God and the scriptures.

She's justified divorcing you to herself because you haven't provided with certain foods and medicine while overseas on a mission trip. What's to say she won't justify remarriage to herself? It usually works that way.

Does she have a missionary calling? What about the hindrance divorcing you could cause to that?

II Corinthians 1 talks about comforting others with the comfort wherewith we have been comforted. If your marriage is restored, that's something good that can come out of it for both of you and those you minister to.

A lot of this is spiritual warfare. The human mind is capable of justifying many things to itself, but there is also a spiritual component. I believe that demons will also put logical-sounding ideas into people's heads. I believe I've witnessed this, and I can sometimes detect it. There are fiery darts of the wicked one. Just consider the persuasiveness of the serpent in the garden, or the way the Devil used scripture to try to persuade Jesus to jump.

If the divorce is finalized, I will still consider myself to be married to her and will continue to wear my wedding ring. I will continue to pray and hope for restoration, no matter how long it takes as this is a covenant and not a contract. I don't know if I'll be able to continue to do that if she remarries, but I don't think she ever will.

With all that said, should I sign? I feel like divorce is a sin. But one of her primary complaints against me is my disrespect of her, which is true. Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest. But since then, I've studied the scriptures a ton about divorce and feel like it's a sin.

If she ever hopes to be forgiven of anything, she needs to forgive. There is a problem with the "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" attitude.

Maybe your verbal treatment of her was 'abuse.' You also need to be aware that when people hear 'abuse' they think of black eyes, busted lips broken bones, especially when they hear about abused wives. 'Abused' gets used to refer to molested children as well. And some preachers will argue that abuse is grounds for divorce, even remarriage-- again thinking of the black eyes and busing lips. So you may want to be careful about throwing the word 'abuse' around, and be specific about what happened while talking about it.

When it comes to verbal abuse, what percentage of couples haven't abused one another at some point in the marriage? Even if it isn't a pattern, I'd venture to guess a high percentage has said harmful, destructive, sinful words.

 

[LinkH]

2. He promised her not to contest it (Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest.). Now he's going back on his word. Why should she trust him now? How do you rationalize that moral dilema?

I know you've got Matthew 19 interpreted to mean that only separation without a certificate of divorce followed by remarriage is sinful. You never responded to many aspects of my debunking of the divorcehope website, especially where I pointed out that your interpretation would lead to the conclusion that it may not be sinful to remarry with a certificate of divorce if she fornicated.

One reason Christians are not to swear is to prevent the sin of breaking an oath. If you agree to do something foolish and sinful, should you follow through because you said so? What about his word at the wedding?

 

[bhsmte]

I know you've got Matthew 19 interpreted to mean that only separation without a certificate of divorce followed by remarriage is sinful. You never responded to many aspects of my debunking of the divorcehope website, especially where I pointed out that your interpretation would lead to the conclusion that it may not be sinful to remarry with a certificate of divorce if she fornicated.

One reason Christians are not to swear is to prevent the sin of breaking an oath. If you agree to do something foolish and sinful, should you follow through because you said so? What about his word at the wedding?

What about his word at the wedding?

Was there something in the vows that allowed abuse?

 

[LinkH]

dw2000,

I don't know if your single or divorced. I was looking at some old posts. I could see you desired to respect your wife's wishes. Normally, that is a good thing. But of course, you need to have some other priorities, too. Pleasing God trumps her wishes or your wishes. We need to line up our wishes with the will of God.

More than being concerned for her wishes, you need to work toward her sanctification, and hers. What do you do if your wife wants something bad for her? Really bad for her? Do you support her in it? You've made your mistakes and you've hurt your wife. One way to respond to that is to punish yourself by passively going along with a divorce. After all, if you both want to be celibate, you are giving up something you desire, a relationship with your wife, hope of a fulfilling sex life. She doesn't care about that and gets what she wants-- no you. So that sounds self-sacrificial. Is that loving your wife like Christ loved the church? I don't think so, because love 'delighteth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth.' Getting a divorce doesn't atone for the way you treated your wife in the past.

Have you suffered some in the marriage? Is your wife the self-righteous type? Or did she change somehow toward the end when talk turned to divorce?

I think you'd agree that the best scenario, based on reading the teachings of Christ in the Bible, would be a reconciliation of the marriage. That's best for you, and best for her. She's hurt now. But I really believe you should stand your ground on this one if you haven't signed yet. Stand firm and keep fighting.

As a husband, if your wife suggests divorce, you have a lot of power to stop it by not agreeing, and by saying no. If you say 'yes', you could getting rid of your marriage. That applies not just to the point you are at with papers in front of you, but during arguments and conversations in troubled marriages. In the Old Testament, the man gave the writing of divorcement.

 

[Hetta]

Have you suffered some in the marriage? Is your wife the self-righteous type? Or did she change somehow toward the end when talk turned to divorce?

His wife is the abused type - by his own admission.

I was emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive towards her by making her feel bad about herself, minimizing, controlling her, blame shifting, discounting, etc

I ended up blaming her for everything

there's no question I've abused her

Because I felt like I "owned" her during the marriage, it led to abuse

I know I've failed. I did not cherish her

I am working on my issues and am not putting any blame on her the destruction of our marriage. That's completely my fault

my abusive tendencies are still there

 

[BigDaddy4]

I know you've got Matthew 19 interpreted to mean that only separation without a certificate of divorce followed by remarriage is sinful. You never responded to many aspects of my debunking of the divorcehope website, especially where I pointed out that your interpretation would lead to the conclusion that it may not be sinful to remarry with a certificate of divorce if she fornicated.

One reason Christians are not to swear is to prevent the sin of breaking an oath. If you agree to do something foolish and sinful, should you follow through because you said so? What about his word at the wedding?

I am not aware of any of your "debunking". I am aware of what the word of God says, and divorce is allowed and is not a sin.

 

[BigDaddy4]

dw2000,

I don't know if your single or divorced. I was looking at some old posts. I could see you desired to respect your wife's wishes. Normally, that is a good thing. But of course, you need to have some other priorities, too. Pleasing God trumps her wishes or your wishes. We need to line up our wishes with the will of God.

More than being concerned for her wishes, you need to work toward her sanctification, and hers. What do you do if your wife wants something bad for her? Really bad for her? Do you support her in it? You've made your mistakes and you've hurt your wife. One way to respond to that is to punish yourself by passively going along with a divorce. After all, if you both want to be celibate, you are giving up something you desire, a relationship with your wife, hope of a fulfilling sex life. She doesn't care about that and gets what she wants-- no you. So that sounds self-sacrificial. Is that loving your wife like Christ loved the church? I don't think so, because love 'delighteth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth.' Getting a divorce doesn't atone for the way you treated your wife in the past.

Have you suffered some in the marriage? Is your wife the self-righteous type? Or did she change somehow toward the end when talk turned to divorce?

I think you'd agree that the best scenario, based on reading the teachings of Christ in the Bible, would be a reconciliation of the marriage. That's best for you, and best for her. She's hurt now. But I really believe you should stand your ground on this one if you haven't signed yet. Stand firm and keep fighting.

As a husband, if your wife suggests divorce, you have a lot of power to stop it by not agreeing, and by saying no. If you say 'yes', you could getting rid of your marriage. That applies not just to the point you are at with papers in front of you, but during arguments and conversations in troubled marriages. In the Old Testament, the man gave the writing of divorcement.

Link I think you are really minimizing the abuse he poured out on his wife.

And he has no power to stop it if/when she files. The courts will rule in her favor. Only God can change this course, not the abuser. Only God knows if the abusers heart has really changed, of if he is just clinging on to a selfish hope.

So let it take its course and leave the rest up to God.

 

[Ellwood3]

I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just responding to the OP. So I hope my comments aren't too old to be of any use.




I just wanted to say that was one of the most humble-sounding, self-reflective, transparent posts I've seen on this sort of topic.

She sounds rather legalistic at this, trying to find a legal argument to justify herself. The Pharisees and the scholars they followed could be rather expert at finding a way to interpret the law to justify their behavior, instead of just doing what God wanted them to do. Christians can fall into the same trap.

If I were to argue back with her, I would ask her who she is to judge whether she has gotten the food, clothing, and marital rights she deserved. Has she cheated her husband of his 'marital rights' during the period of separation? Who is she to judge? If you were feeding her, but didn't give her some food she desired, how can she argue, you didn't feed her. Does it say you have to feed your wife Salisbury steak instead of fried rice? And where is part about medicine in the verse?

Has she considered that missionaries go abroad willing to risk giving up some basic comforts, even perhaps sacrificing their own lives? Were you trying to make every little penny count so you could continue to provide with what you had, or were you maliciously trying to make her suffer from some illness?

The Jews would have tried such a case before judges, priests, or elders of the people or some other recognized judge. The Bible talks about taking people before 'Elohim' (or elohim) when talking about judgment. The wife didn't get to judge her own case, and neither did the husband. Would she be willing to go before a pastor to judge the case, or some other believer rather than filing through the secular courts (I Corinthians 6.) If the church decided you should reconcile, would she be willing to submit.

If you haven't signed yet, you could point this out, say her certificate of divorce isn't valid according to the Old Testament, and ask to have your case 'tried' before a church leader or congregation of faithful believers. What about your missionary sending agency or church?

I question whether that is justice. Is she a Jew or Gentile? God did give Israelite's some laws about marrying concubines. What did the Lord say to the church? To wives he said, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, and be reconciled to her husband.

If she wants to go with Old Testament law, a female initiated divorce didn't exist. The wife would need the husband's writing of divorcement for it to be valid. In the case of the concubine that wasn't provided for, judges would try to compel the man to divorce her if they thought she needed a divorce. He needed to sign the document. I've read the only female initiated divorce there was record of was Herodias' divorce from Philip, of which the prophet John the Baptist said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" and Scripture refers to her as his brother Philip's wife. (That has the whole incest issue involved in it.)

So if she wants to go by the Old Testament Law, she is not doing it. As in many areas, when it comes to marriage, Christ gave a higher standard than what was previously presented explicitly in the Law of Moses.

She's justified divorcing you to herself because you haven't provided with certain foods and medicine while overseas on a mission trip. What's to say she won't justify remarriage to herself? It usually works that way.

Does she have a missionary calling? What about the hindrance divorcing you could cause to that?

II Corinthians 1 talks about comforting others with the comfort wherewith we have been comforted. If your marriage is restored, that's something good that can come out of it for both of you and those you minister to.

A lot of this is spiritual warfare. The human mind is capable of justifying many things to itself, but there is also a spiritual component. I believe that demons will also put logical-sounding ideas into people's heads. I believe I've witnessed this, and I can sometimes detect it. There are fiery darts of the wicked one. Just consider the persuasiveness of the serpent in the garden, or the way the Devil used scripture to try to persuade Jesus to jump.

If she ever hopes to be forgiven of anything, she needs to forgive. There is a problem with the "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" attitude.

Maybe your verbal treatment of her was 'abuse.' You also need to be aware that when people hear 'abuse' they think of black eyes, busted lips broken bones, especially when they hear about abused wives. 'Abused' gets used to refer to molested children as well. And some preachers will argue that abuse is grounds for divorce, even remarriage-- again thinking of the black eyes and busing lips. So you may want to be careful about throwing the word 'abuse' around, and be specific about what happened while talking about it.

When it comes to verbal abuse, what percentage of couples haven't abused one another at some point in the marriage? Even if it isn't a pattern, I'd venture to guess a high percentage has said harmful, destructive, sinful words.

Your comments aren't too old to be of any use. They are valuable. Thank you.

 

[bhsmte]

I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just responding to the OP. So I hope my comments aren't too old to be of any use.




I just wanted to say that was one of the most humble-sounding, self-reflective, transparent posts I've seen on this sort of topic.

She sounds rather legalistic at this, trying to find a legal argument to justify herself. The Pharisees and the scholars they followed could be rather expert at finding a way to interpret the law to justify their behavior, instead of just doing what God wanted them to do. Christians can fall into the same trap.

If I were to argue back with her, I would ask her who she is to judge whether she has gotten the food, clothing, and marital rights she deserved. Has she cheated her husband of his 'marital rights' during the period of separation? Who is she to judge? If you were feeding her, but didn't give her some food she desired, how can she argue, you didn't feed her. Does it say you have to feed your wife Salisbury steak instead of fried rice? And where is part about medicine in the verse?

Has she considered that missionaries go abroad willing to risk giving up some basic comforts, even perhaps sacrificing their own lives? Were you trying to make every little penny count so you could continue to provide with what you had, or were you maliciously trying to make her suffer from some illness?

The Jews would have tried such a case before judges, priests, or elders of the people or some other recognized judge. The Bible talks about taking people before 'Elohim' (or elohim) when talking about judgment. The wife didn't get to judge her own case, and neither did the husband. Would she be willing to go before a pastor to judge the case, or some other believer rather than filing through the secular courts (I Corinthians 6.) If the church decided you should reconcile, would she be willing to submit.

If you haven't signed yet, you could point this out, say her certificate of divorce isn't valid according to the Old Testament, and ask to have your case 'tried' before a church leader or congregation of faithful believers. What about your missionary sending agency or church?

I question whether that is justice. Is she a Jew or Gentile? God did give Israelite's some laws about marrying concubines. What did the Lord say to the church? To wives he said, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, and be reconciled to her husband.

If she wants to go with Old Testament law, a female initiated divorce didn't exist. The wife would need the husband's writing of divorcement for it to be valid. In the case of the concubine that wasn't provided for, judges would try to compel the man to divorce her if they thought she needed a divorce. He needed to sign the document. I've read the only female initiated divorce there was record of was Herodias' divorce from Philip, of which the prophet John the Baptist said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" and Scripture refers to her as his brother Philip's wife. (That has the whole incest issue involved in it.)

So if she wants to go by the Old Testament Law, she is not doing it. As in many areas, when it comes to marriage, Christ gave a higher standard than what was previously presented explicitly in the Law of Moses.

She's justified divorcing you to herself because you haven't provided with certain foods and medicine while overseas on a mission trip. What's to say she won't justify remarriage to herself? It usually works that way.

Does she have a missionary calling? What about the hindrance divorcing you could cause to that?

II Corinthians 1 talks about comforting others with the comfort wherewith we have been comforted. If your marriage is restored, that's something good that can come out of it for both of you and those you minister to.

A lot of this is spiritual warfare. The human mind is capable of justifying many things to itself, but there is also a spiritual component. I believe that demons will also put logical-sounding ideas into people's heads. I believe I've witnessed this, and I can sometimes detect it. There are fiery darts of the wicked one. Just consider the persuasiveness of the serpent in the garden, or the way the Devil used scripture to try to persuade Jesus to jump.

If she ever hopes to be forgiven of anything, she needs to forgive. There is a problem with the "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" attitude.

Maybe your verbal treatment of her was 'abuse.' You also need to be aware that when people hear 'abuse' they think of black eyes, busted lips broken bones, especially when they hear about abused wives. 'Abused' gets used to refer to molested children as well. And some preachers will argue that abuse is grounds for divorce, even remarriage-- again thinking of the black eyes and busing lips. So you may want to be careful about throwing the word 'abuse' around, and be specific about what happened while talking about it.

When it comes to verbal abuse, what percentage of couples haven't abused one another at some point in the marriage? Even if it isn't a pattern, I'd venture to guess a high percentage has said harmful, destructive, sinful words.

When it comes to the damage done to a human being, emotional abuse can be just as damaging and in some cases more damaging then physical abuse.

 

[Ellwood3]

Uh, incorrect.

From the OP: "She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce."

Facts:

1. Divorce is not a sin, as the OP seems to think. It's a choice. Her choice. The choice of the victim he abused!! God's word allows for divorce. Any actions she chooses to take is between her and the Lord, not the OP and certainly not any of us.

2. He promised her not to contest it (Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest.). Now he's going back on his word. Why should she trust him now? How do you rationalize that moral dilema?

An abuser going back on his word not to contest. Hmmmmm. Big red flag. Sign the paperwork and let any reconciliation be the work of God, not the abuser.

From the OP: "She's been searching the scriptures and found "Bibclial" reasons for divorce."


Error. She's been using the scriptures to seek what she wishes to find. Not the same as seeking the will of God, or even being open to God's will


Facts:

1. Divorce is not a sin, as the OP seems to think. It's a choice. Her choice. The choice of the victim he abused!! God's word allows for divorce. Any actions she chooses to take is between her and the Lord, not the OP and certainly not any of us.


Error. Divorce is not a sin if it is God's will. It is sin if it is not. Your posts consistently have ignored God's will.


2. He promised her not to contest it (Also, to complicate matters, when she asked for a separation, I promised her I wouldn't contest.). Now he's going back on his word. Why should she trust him now? How do you rationalize that moral dilema?


Errors again. He also made promises to God and his spouse on his wedding day. Your irrational argument is, the one spouse who has been abused, whatever she does is her choice; therefore it is not sin (error). But the other (also abused at an earlier age) spouse, is not to follow God's will or timing, which might mean not going against God's will and divorcing. Painfully illogical.

A gentleman honors his commitments both to God and to his wife by allowing God to guide.



An abuser going back on his word not to contest. Hmmmmm. Big red flag. Sign the paperwork and let any reconciliation be the work of God, not the abuser.[/quote]

Errors again. God does not view this man as you do, name-calling him as an abuser. God sees the total picture. The big red flag you see might be in your following statement, to tell forcably someone else--when you do this out of your own choice (which you may assume, erroneously, is not a sin because it is your choice, by your definition) and not at God's urging--to divorce and "let any reconciliation be the work of God, not the (name-calling again)."

Why not be seek reconciliation in time if God chooses? Why prod someone to divorce than reconcile later?
Why assume reconciliation prior to divorce isn't God's work?

Those answers would seem illogical even if you were an atheist. But you identify yourself as a Christian?


Do you have any relationship with God? If so, why rule over the decision? If not, why not humbly come to Him and acknowledge He has not been ruling in your own life?

But in any case, why encourage anyone else not to follow Him?

Most perplexing is this odd "the abuser" wording. No. You are speaking of a real human being, who is more than the sum of his shortcomings. You speak of someone in a dehumanizing way. Why try to advise someone you do not especially care about? Why should anyone use advice from one who does not respect him or her?

 

[Ellwood3]

I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just responding to the OP. So I hope my comments aren't too old to be of any use.




I just wanted to say that was one of the most humble-sounding, self-reflective, transparent posts I've seen on this sort of topic.


She sounds rather legalistic at this, trying to find a legal argument to justify herself. The Pharisees and the scholars they followed could be rather expert at finding a way to interpret the law to justify their behavior, instead of just doing what God wanted them to do. Christians can fall into the same trap.

If I were to argue back with her, I would ask her who she is to judge whether she has gotten the food, clothing, and marital rights she deserved. Has she cheated her husband of his 'marital rights' during the period of separation? Who is she to judge? If you were feeding her, but didn't give her some food she desired, how can she argue, you didn't feed her. Does it say you have to feed your wife Salisbury steak instead of fried rice? And where is part about medicine in the verse?

Has she considered that missionaries go abroad willing to risk giving up some basic comforts, even perhaps sacrificing their own lives? Were you trying to make every little penny count so you could continue to provide with what you had, or were you maliciously trying to make her suffer from some illness?

The Jews would have tried such a case before judges, priests, or elders of the people or some other recognized judge. The Bible talks about taking people before 'Elohim' (or elohim) when talking about judgment. The wife didn't get to judge her own case, and neither did the husband. Would she be willing to go before a pastor to judge the case, or some other believer rather than filing through the secular courts (I Corinthians 6.) If the church decided you should reconcile, would she be willing to submit.

If you haven't signed yet, you could point this out, say her certificate of divorce isn't valid according to the Old Testament, and ask to have your case 'tried' before a church leader or congregation of faithful believers. What about your missionary sending agency or church?

I question whether that is justice. Is she a Jew or Gentile? God did give Israelite's some laws about marrying concubines. What did the Lord say to the church? To wives he said, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, and be reconciled to her husband.

If she wants to go with Old Testament law, a female initiated divorce didn't exist. The wife would need the husband's writing of divorcement for it to be valid. In the case of the concubine that wasn't provided for, judges would try to compel the man to divorce her if they thought she needed a divorce. He needed to sign the document. I've read the only female initiated divorce there was record of was Herodias' divorce from Philip, of which the prophet John the Baptist said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" and Scripture refers to her as his brother Philip's wife. (That has the whole incest issue involved in it.)

So if she wants to go by the Old Testament Law, she is not doing it. As in many areas, when it comes to marriage, Christ gave a higher standard than what was previously presented explicitly in the Law of Moses.

She's justified divorcing you to herself because you haven't provided with certain foods and medicine while overseas on a mission trip. What's to say she won't justify remarriage to herself? It usually works that way.

Does she have a missionary calling? What about the hindrance divorcing you could cause to that?

II Corinthians 1 talks about comforting others with the comfort wherewith we have been comforted. If your marriage is restored, that's something good that can come out of it for both of you and those you minister to.

A lot of this is spiritual warfare. The human mind is capable of justifying many things to itself, but there is also a spiritual component. I believe that demons will also put logical-sounding ideas into people's heads. I believe I've witnessed this, and I can sometimes detect it. There are fiery darts of the wicked one. Just consider the persuasiveness of the serpent in the garden, or the way the Devil used scripture to try to persuade Jesus to jump.

If she ever hopes to be forgiven of anything, she needs to forgive. There is a problem with the "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" attitude.

Maybe your verbal treatment of her was 'abuse.' You also need to be aware that when people hear 'abuse' they think of black eyes, busted lips broken bones, especially when they hear about abused wives. 'Abused' gets used to refer to molested children as well. And some preachers will argue that abuse is grounds for divorce, even remarriage-- again thinking of the black eyes and busing lips. So you may want to be careful about throwing the word 'abuse' around, and be specific about what happened while talking about it.

When it comes to verbal abuse, what percentage of couples haven't abused one another at some point in the marriage? Even if it isn't a pattern, I'd venture to guess a high percentage has said harmful, destructive, sinful words.

I just wanted to say that was one of the most humble-sounding, self-reflective, transparent posts I've seen on this sort of topic.

I totally agree.


"She sounds rather legalistic at this, trying to find a legal argument to justify herself."

Exactly.

"The Pharisees and the scholars they followed could be rather expert at finding a way to interpret the law to justify their behavior, instead of just doing what God wanted them to do. Christians can fall into the same trap."

Especially when they are hurting, seeking an "out" from a hard challenge that's before them.

"If I were to argue back with her, I would ask her who she is to judge whether she has gotten the food, clothing, and marital rights she deserved. Has she cheated her husband of his 'marital rights' during the period of separation? Who is she to judge? If you were feeding her, but didn't give her some food she desired, how can she argue, you didn't feed her. Does it say you have to feed your wife Salisbury steak instead of fried rice? And where is part about medicine in the verse?"

"Has she considered that missionaries go abroad willing to risk giving up some basic comforts, even perhaps sacrificing their own lives? Were you trying to make every little penny count so you could continue to provide with what you had, or were you maliciously trying to make her suffer from some illness?"

"The Jews would have tried such a case before judges, priests, or elders of the people or some other recognized judge. The Bible talks about taking people before 'Elohim' (or elohim) when talking about judgment. The wife didn't get to judge her own case, and neither did the husband. Would she be willing to go before a pastor to judge the case, or some other believer rather than filing through the secular courts (I Corinthians 6.) If the church decided you should reconcile, would she be willing to submit."

"If you haven't signed yet, you could point this out, say her certificate of divorce isn't valid according to the Old Testament, and ask to have your case 'tried' before a church leader or congregation of faithful believers. What about your missionary sending agency or church?"

"I question whether that is justice. Is she a Jew or Gentile? God did give Israelite's some laws about marrying concubines. What did the Lord say to the church? To wives he said, Let not the wife depart from her husband. But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, and be reconciled to her husband."

"If she wants to go with Old Testament law, a female initiated divorce didn't exist. The wife would need the husband's writing of divorcement for it to be valid. In the case of the concubine that wasn't provided for, judges would try to compel the man to divorce her if they thought she needed a divorce. He needed to sign the document. I've read the only female initiated divorce there was record of was Herodias' divorce from Philip, of which the prophet John the Baptist said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" and Scripture refers to her as his brother Philip's wife. (That has the whole incest issue involved in it.)"

"So if she wants to go by the Old Testament Law, she is not doing it. As in many areas, when it comes to marriage, Christ gave a higher standard than what was previously presented explicitly in the Law of Moses."

"She's justified divorcing you to herself because you haven't provided with certain foods and medicine while overseas on a mission trip. What's to say she won't justify remarriage to herself? It usually works that way."

There has been verbal abuse on the part of the husband, which he acknowledges and since the separation, has found a "breakthrough" on regarding its link to his own, as yet unhealed abuse.

"Does she have a missionary calling? What about the hindrance divorcing you could cause to that?"

She, the poster said, had felt led into the marriage specifically for ministry. She believed she was called. They worked as Bible translators.

"II Corinthians 1 talks about comforting others with the comfort wherewith we have been comforted. If your marriage is restored, that's something good that can come out of it for both of you and those you minister to."

AMEN! May be one of the reasons for the suffering of BOTH people in this couple now, is that someday it may help others through God's work in them.


"A lot of this is spiritual warfare."


YAHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SOMEBODY FINALLY GETS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Especially when you're dealing with a ministry couple.


"The human mind is capable of justifying many things to itself, but there is also a spiritual component. I believe that demons will also put logical-sounding ideas into people's heads. I believe I've witnessed this, and I can sometimes detect it. There are fiery darts of the wicked one. Just consider the persuasiveness of the serpent in the garden, or the way the Devil used scripture to try to persuade Jesus to jump."


Ah. You speak of a beautiful thing called "spiritual discernment." We can talk ourselves into almost anything when we seek to justify our plans. Far better to follow God.


"If she ever hopes to be forgiven of anything, she needs to forgive. There is a problem with the "I forgive you, but I never want to see you again" attitude."

Agreed.

"Maybe your verbal treatment of her was 'abuse.' You also need to be aware that when people hear 'abuse' they think of black eyes, busted lips broken bones, especially when they hear about abused wives. 'Abused' gets used to refer to molested children as well. And some preachers will argue that abuse is grounds for divorce, even remarriage-- again thinking of the black eyes and busing lips. So you may want to be careful about throwing the word 'abuse' around, and be specific about what happened while talking about it."

"When it comes to verbal abuse, what percentage of couples haven't abused one another at some point in the marriage? Even if it isn't a pattern, I'd venture to guess a high percentage has said harmful, destructive, sinful words."

Not a soul exists who hasn't verbally abused someone at sometime. When God starts taking control of a tongue--and brings people together in forgiveness, there can be growth.

 

[Ellwood3]

I know you've got Matthew 19 interpreted to mean that only separation without a certificate of divorce followed by remarriage is sinful. You never responded to many aspects of my debunking of the divorcehope website, especially where I pointed out that your interpretation would lead to the conclusion that it may not be sinful to remarry with a certificate of divorce if she fornicated.

One reason Christians are not to swear is to prevent the sin of breaking an oath. If you agree to do something foolish and sinful, should you follow through because you said so? What about his word at the wedding?

(Boldfaced emphasis mine.)

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Ellwood3]

What about his word at the wedding?

Was there something in the vows that allowed abuse?

Has already been answered. Every marriage involves some abuse, some struggle. The issue is whether the couple gives up or gets beyond it. In part.

 

[Ellwood3]

dw2000,

I don't know if your single or divorced. I was looking at some old posts. I could see you desired to respect your wife's wishes. Normally, that is a good thing. But of course, you need to have some other priorities, too. Pleasing God trumps her wishes or your wishes. We need to line up our wishes with the will of God.

More than being concerned for her wishes, you need to work toward her sanctification, and hers. What do you do if your wife wants something bad for her? Really bad for her? Do you support her in it? You've made your mistakes and you've hurt your wife. One way to respond to that is to punish yourself by passively going along with a divorce. After all, if you both want to be celibate, you are giving up something you desire, a relationship with your wife, hope of a fulfilling sex life. She doesn't care about that and gets what she wants-- no you. So that sounds self-sacrificial. Is that loving your wife like Christ loved the church? I don't think so, because love 'delighteth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth.' Getting a divorce doesn't atone for the way you treated your wife in the past.

Have you suffered some in the marriage? Is your wife the self-righteous type? Or did she change somehow toward the end when talk turned to divorce?

I think you'd agree that the best scenario, based on reading the teachings of Christ in the Bible, would be a reconciliation of the marriage. That's best for you, and best for her. She's hurt now. But I really believe you should stand your ground on this one if you haven't signed yet. Stand firm and keep fighting.

As a husband, if your wife suggests divorce, you have a lot of power to stop it by not agreeing, and by saying no. If you say 'yes', you could getting rid of your marriage. That applies not just to the point you are at with papers in front of you, but during arguments and conversations in troubled marriages. In the Old Testament, the man gave the writing of divorcement.

I don't know if your single or divorced. I was looking at some old posts. I could see you desired to respect your wife's wishes. Normally, that is a good thing. But of course, you need to have some other priorities, too. Pleasing God trumps her wishes or your wishes. We need to line up our wishes with the will of God.


You point out exactly some of the more promising aspects of this. But what does my own heart good is that for weeksI've been using the words "God's will" and no one here, with very few exceptions, has understood that's the point. It's not about pushing advice to divorce (or not to divorce, for that matter). It's 100% about following God's will. Both people in the union.

Anyone can claim to be "Christian" based on beliefs. But do they follow?

That's the difference between Christ as Savior and as Lord. He is to be both. It's a privilege to call Him "Lord."



More than being concerned for her wishes, you need to work toward her (your?) sanctification, and hers.

(boldface and blue addition is my emphasis.)

ABSOLUTELY. You nailed it. I think you mean your sanctification and hers, that's exactly the purpose, and working through this process could very well lead to that in terms of healing for him (earlier trauma) and her, as well as seeking to forgive.


What do you do if your wife wants something bad for her? Really bad for her? Do you support her in it? You've made your mistakes and you've hurt your wife. One way to respond to that is to punish yourself by passively going along with a divorce. After all, if you both want to be celibate, you are giving up something you desire, a relationship with your wife, hope of a fulfilling sex life. She doesn't care about that and gets what she wants-- no you. So that sounds self-sacrificial. Is that loving your wife like Christ loved the church? I don't think so, because love 'delighteth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth.' Getting a divorce doesn't atone for the way you treated your wife in the past.


(emphasis above is mine--bold and underline.)
Thank you. I completely agree. Bless your heart: you've said that beautifully. Folks keep arguing, 'be nice to her and divorce as soon as possible, if you don't, then you're a mean liar.'

Rubbish.

Besides the fraud of possibly divorcing when they should not, destroying a ministry He had for them each, and--there's always the possibility of children from this marriage--of people not being born, the entire idea of "rush to sign those papers now!' is a fraud.

Getting a divorce could prevent healing for the wife.


Have you suffered some in the marriage? Is your wife the self-righteous type? Or did she change somehow toward the end when talk turned to divorce?

I think you'd agree that the best scenario, based on reading the teachings of Christ in the Bible, would be a reconciliation of the marriage. That's best for you, and best for her. She's hurt now. But I really believe you should stand your ground on this one if you haven't signed yet. Stand firm and keep fighting.

As a husband, if your wife suggests divorce, you have a lot of power to stop it by not agreeing, and by saying no. If you say 'yes', you could getting rid of your marriage. That applies not just to the point you are at with papers in front of you, but during arguments and conversations in troubled marriages. In the Old Testament, the man gave the writing of divorcement.


(boldface is my own emphasis.)

And the divorce papers he received would have required him to lie, saying he was for it. Each spouse has the right to be honest about where God is leading them.

 

[bhsmte]

Has already been answered. Every marriage involves some abuse, some struggle. The issue is whether the couple gives up or gets beyond it. In part.

Every marriage involves abuse? This is your logic?

The man admitted to abuse and since that is not all that common, I would imagine the abuse was very real and likely quite severe, for him to acknowledge the same.

Bottom line, whenever abuse occurs the person to be concerned about is the person that has been the victim and to assure they are never exposed to the same again, ever.

For a stated devout christian to participate in this type of behavior, tells me there are deep deep problems, the type of problems that are quite likely to resurface, if they could justify the abuse and keep carrying on with it, all while supposedly living a christian lifestyle.

Red flags galore with this one, no way around it.

I will say as I have said before, he is at her mercy and it appears she took the high road even with the abuse. If she ends up in front of a therapist (even a christian therapist) and she explains what happened, that therapist will be compelled by law to notify authorities of any abuse or risk losing their license.