Should I change churches?

Daniel9v9 · Jun 25, 2019

I think any Reformed body you attend will either have a pull in Calvinism or Arminianism. Non-Denominational and Charismatic bodies tend to be Arminian. When people are baptised in Hillsong London, for example, they get a T-shirt that reads "I have decided" - contrast this with something like "Saved by God's grace", "Justified by faith through grace" or a simple "God is my Saviour".

I don't know where in the UK you live, but HTB could perhaps be a fair-ish middle-ground. It's Anglican, but low-church and charismatic. It's my understanding that they are a bit more mature and rooted in Scripture than some of the looser Non-Denominational bodies out there. I wouldn't know, but I suspect they're leaning towards Arminianism, but perhaps not too aggressively.

If you want to attend a Sola Scriptura Evangelical Church and to escape the Calvin vs Arminian tension altogether, you may want to consider the Lutheran Church, where it's held that salvation, from beginning to end is from God - but damnation, from beginning to end is from man. In other words, it rejects both Double Predestination and decision theology and anything approaching Pelagianism.

Whether you stay or find a new church, I pray you get to hear God's Word rightly preached, and with sound exegesis.

Sam91 · Jun 25, 2019

Daniel9v9 said:
I think any Reformed body you attend will either have a pull in Calvinism or Arminianism. Non-Denominational and Charismatic bodies tend to be Arminian. When people are baptised in Hillsong London, for example, they get a T-shirt that reads "I have decided" - contrast this with something like "Saved by God's grace", "Justified by faith through grace" or a simple "God is my Saviour".

I don't know where in the UK you live, but HTB could perhaps be a fair-ish middle-ground. It's Anglican, but low-church and charismatic. It's my understanding that they are a bit more mature and rooted in Scripture than some of the looser Non-Denominational bodies out there. I wouldn't know, but I suspect they're leaning towards Arminianism, but perhaps not too aggressively.

If you want to attend a Sola Scriptura Evangelical Church and to escape the Calvin vs Arminian tension altogether, you may want to consider the Lutheran Church, where it's held that salvation, from beginning to end is from God - but damnation, from beginning to end is from man. In other words, it rejects both Double Predestination and decision theology and anything approaching Pelagianism.

Whether you stay or find a new church, I pray you get to hear God's Word rightly preached, and with sound exegesis.

Thank you

Dave L · Jun 25, 2019

Sam91 said:
I am at a Church where I have many peers and it has a good Sunday school for my children. I have few friends outside Church and no relatives.

I liked my Church because it was a Bible preaching church. I liked the way that preaching was based on the Bible and not on what others make of it.. eg Calvin.

I have in recent weeks been aware of Calvinistic teachings being uttered more than once. I've read a book on Calvinism and fail to see how Calvin concluded what he did. I look at the same verses and see it differently. Should I ignore this? I'm a huge fan of Proverbs 3:5-6 and trust more what the Lord teaches than any doctrine of man. I also don't want to have itchy ears and seek out preachers who say what I want them too.

Please advise and pray for wisdom. There aren't many options of other Churches around.

If you can find a Calvinistic Church, count yourself lucky. You should stick around and try to learn truth no where else available.

-57 · Jun 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The Bible constantly refers to our having free will choice to choose the Lord. Choose this day in whom you will serve.

Just for fun, seeing how it constantly refers to our having to choose the Lord..can you present 3 verses which say we choose to accept Jesus ?

Choose this day in whom you will serve...is something we should do each and everyday and isn't necessarily tied to salvation.

Albion · Jun 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The problem I have with Calvinism is that it appears to attack the good character of God in the fact that He chooses some people for salvation and other people for damnation based on no actual conditions within the individual themselves (i.e. Unconditional Election).

The question that must be asked is whether God is almighty and sovereign as we all proclaim him to be, or whether, on the contrary, he must conform to our own standards of justice. (Notice, for instance, when people say things like "I feel that everybody has the chance...." or says that there cannot be a hell since that wouldn't be "fair" of God.)

None of us deserves salvation, after all, so it is not as though we are being cheated out of something to which we are entitled if someone else is saved but we are not.

Sam91 · Jun 25, 2019

Dave L said:
If you can find a Calvinistic Church, count yourself lucky. You should stick around and try to learn truth no where else available.

The fact that Calvin got it right is opinion. Many people have disagreed with him and many of those have been much more knowledgeable than myself and possibly even you. I know not.

All I know is that I've been blessed to have been to many denominations growing up and not been exposed to one set of teaching. I can't reconcile Calvin's theological views with over 30 years of reading the Bible and it turns God into a different one to the one I have loved. The God I have so much reverent awe of is perfectly Just. His desire is that all be saved and I feel that everybody has the chance to come to know Him. Not just what Calvinists call the 'elect'. I also believe that eternal punishment would not be just if we had no choice in accepting or denying Christ's atonement. It seems heretical.

This thread isn't supposed to be about Calvinism and I'd rather not get into it. I mentioned Calvinism so people could see what I was concerned about. I'm happy to remain and fellowship with my sisters and brothers for the time being though.

Sam91 · Jun 25, 2019

-57 said:
Just for fun, seeing how it constantly refers to our having to choose the Lord..can you present 3 verses which say we choose to accept Jesus ?

Choose this day in whom you will serve...is something we should do each and everyday and isn't necessarily tied to salvation.

Ezekiel 33 is one of those, Isaiah 55:6, deuteronomy 30:19-20 Ezekiel 18:30-32

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2019

-57 · Jun 25, 2019

Sam91 said:
Ezekiel 33 is one of those, Isaiah 55:6, deuteronomy 30:19-20 Ezekiel 18:30-32

Thanks for those verses but are they pointing to personal salvation or the nation of Israelites?
Is there any in the New Testament?

Romans 3:10 tells us...
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

God choose His believers before the world even began.

Jordan1989 · Jun 25, 2019

Sam91 said:
The fact that Calvin got it right is opinion. Many people have disagreed with him and many of those have been much more knowledgeable than myself and possibly even you. I know not.

All I know is that I've been blessed to have been to many denominations growing up and not been exposed to one set of teaching. I can't reconcile Calvin's theological views with over 30 years of reading the Bible and it turns God into a different one to the one I have loved. The God I have so much reverent awe of is perfectly Just. His desire is that all be saved and I feel that everybody has the chance to come to know Him. Not just what Calvinists call the 'elect'. I also believe that eternal punishment would not be just if we had no choice in accepting or denying Christ's atonement. It seems heretical.

This thread isn't supposed to be about Calvinism and I'd rather not get into it. I mentioned Calvinism so people could see what I was concerned about. I'm happy to remain and fellowship with my sisters and brothers for the time being though.

Indeed. Even the well-respected C.S. Lewis seemed to disagree with Calvinism.

Mere Christianity - Chapter 33 (The New Men):

“But the new step, the step from being creatures to being sons, is voluntary. At least, voluntary in one sense. It is not voluntary in the sense that we, of ourselves, could have chosen to take it or could even have imagined it; but it is voluntary in the sense that when it is offered to us we can refuse it. We can, if we please, shrink back; we can dig in our heels and let the new Humanity go on without us.”

For me, Calvinism is one of those secondary issues that I can tolerate within my church, so long as it isn't constantly being hammered.

Many of my brothers and sisters are Calvinists, and I know they love the Lord and are seeking hard after him. And I love them as brothers and sisters. But in my opinion, they are simply misinterpreting a few key scriptures such as Romans 9, John 6, and Ephesians 1 and as a result, have to do mental gymnastics to make many other "non-Calvinistic" passages fit their theological system.

I would ask yourself questions such as "am I growing in my faith at this church?"

Am I developing relationships with other believers at this church?

Is Calvinism something I can tolerate within my heart at this church? Do I catch myself constantly shaking my head no during the pastor's sermons when talking about topics that are impacted by having a Calvinistic belief? Am I often frustrated?

Pray often to God for spiritual wisdom and discernment regarding this. I know from experience it isn't an easy decision. God Bless.

Sam91 · Jun 25, 2019

-57 said:
Thanks for those verses but are they pointing to personal salvation or the nation of Israelites?
Is there any in the New Testament?

Romans 3:10 tells us...
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

God choose His believers before the world even began.

Doesn't Roman's 3 quote the OT?

I find Ephesians 1 could be talking about humanity in general. He elected that we should have a relationship with Him, like when He put Adam above the animals for example.

As for John 6, I believe everyone is given that chance. The Bible also says we have no excuse and that even nature testifies to Him. If we weren't all given that call, we would have an excuse. Romans 1:20

-57 · Jun 25, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Why are we told to come unto Jesus if it is something we will automatically do?

NT Command: Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:28-29).

Why are we commanded that we should believe in the name of Jesus Christ if it is something we are going to automatically do?

NT Command: This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

Why are we told to receive the Holy Ghost if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: Receive the Holy Ghost (John 20:22).

(Related: Revelation 22:17 says, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”).

Why are we told to have faith in God the Father if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: Have faith in God (Mark 11:22).

Why are we commanded to repent if it is something we are automatically going to do?

NT Command: "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent," (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

This is just one of the many reasons why Calvinism doesn't make any sense, unless somebody wants to change the plain written meaning of the text of the Bible every time they see a "free will" statement, or command, or a choice given to us, etc.

Yes, we are commanded to believe....but as my previous post pointed out unless God grants you the ability to come to Jesus...you can't.

The major flaw with free-will concerning salvation it the choice to choose Jesus is based upon personal life experience. That is, the road you walk may or may not lead to Christ.
Your choice to reject Jesus may be based upon a well delivered lecture by an atheist who proved to you there is no God.

Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2019

Jordan1989 · Jun 25, 2019

Sam91 said:
Doesn't Roman's 3 quote the OT?

I find Ephesians 3 could be talking about humanity in general. He elected that we should have a relationship with Him, like when He put Adam above the animals for example.

As for John 6, I believe everyone is given that chance. The Bible also says we have no excuse and that even nature testifies to Him. If we weren't all given that call, we would have an excuse.

Here's what I believe about romans 3.

I believe it is saying that no one is righteous according to the works of the law. No one is able to attain righteousness by law through works. If you read Romans chapter 2 and the rest of romans 3, you will see that the topic being discussed is trying to be made right with God by obeying the law. Just a few verses later in Romans 3, it is stated
“For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:20‬

But how does that prove no one is able to obtain righteousness by grace through faith? In verse 21 of this same chapter Paul introduces the means for man to obtain righteousness, which is separate from the law. Calvinists seem to think that proof of our inability to earn righteousness through our own works likewise proves our inability to trust in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Proving that the lost cannot seek God does not prove that they are unable to respond to a God who is actively seeking to save the lost. Proving that I cannot call the President on the phone does not prove I cannot answer the phone if the President chose to call me.

Albion · Jun 25, 2019

Jordan1989 said:
Indeed. Even the well-respected C.S. Lewis seemed to disagree with Calvinism.

"Even" C. S. Lewis??

Of course C. S. Lewis would disagree.

-57 · Jun 25, 2019

Sam91 said:
Doesn't Roman's 3 quote the OT?

I find Ephesians 3 could be talking about humanity in general. He elected that we should have a relationship with Him, like when He put Adam above the animals for example.

As for John 6, I believe everyone is given that chance. The Bible also says we have no excuse and that even nature testifies to Him. If we weren't all given that call, we would have an excuse. Romans 1:20

I disagree. I don't think everyone is given that chance.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

It's not human will that decides...but God.

John 6:44 tells us....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 16:16 puts it this way...You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you

-57 · Jun 25, 2019

Jordan1989 said:
Calvinists seem to think that proof of our inability to earn righteousness through our own works likewise proves our inability to trust in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

?????

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2019

This post has been moved to this thread here.

Sam91 · Jun 25, 2019

-57 said:
I disagree. I don't think everyone is given that chance.
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

It's not human will that decides...but God.

John 6:44 tells us....No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 16:16 puts it this way...You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you

Romans 9:15 is a quote from when Moses asked to see God's glory in Exodus.

We spoke already about John 6 and John 16:16 isn't the correct reference. I'll need to find it.

God knows the heart and who'll come to Him when called and who won't.

Jordan1989 · Jun 25, 2019

Albion said:
"Even" C. S. Lewis??

Of course C. S. Lewis would disagree.

Like him or not, Lewis is recognized by many Christians for his contributions to Christianity.

I have yet to go to a Christian bookstore where some of Lewis' writings are not included in the "Classics" section along with other men of the faith such as Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc.

Should I change churches?

†

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