Should Harry Potter be used in the classroom?

[Ananel]

http://www.geocities.com/nopotter2001/Potter0104.htm

Here's that list of sources again. Once again, I do not attest that this man is 100% accurate. However, unlike your sources Star, he lists citaton after citation of ancient and modern texts to explain his sources for describing various religions on this subject and for describing Rowling's methodology.

Why is this important? You can verify what he says, and as far as I can tell, the only verifiable things your websites have given are "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and the Phoenix reference. The former is both accurate considering the 1st commandment and a gross oversimplification considering the source of the Hebrew word, as I have already said. The latter is a gross oversimplification of a mythological motif throughout the western world.

You'll excuse me if I take the man more seriously who gives me the chance to check his work, rather than taking the screaming nut at his word when he calls down fire and brimstone and in the same breath lauds the works of Tolkein as Christian epics, despite Tolkein's loud protestations.

That's not think. That's know. The link I gave you may not be 100% accurate, but you can bloody well check his sources if you want to verify their veracity. You can't do that with any of yours, save this Abane's book, and that's already verified itself in review as in direct opposition to one major author's own intentions with his book, so it's an academically suspect text from the get-go.

 

[Star_Pixels]

No, I didn't say think. I offered a categorical list of sources demonstrating the weakness of the wicca tie-in. Yes, she probably used it for her imagery to a limited extent, but the depiction is so catastrophically poor as to produce nothing in the way of education on the subject of wiccan practice.

Then you don't know Wiccan practices.

If you're going to respond to me with "Why should I take you seriously" I would return fire with exactly the same words. The presence of nominally wiccan imagery in her works, so veiled that without training in wiccan practice and motifs the relations are impossible to notice, does not indicate anything dangerous. Your misrepresentations of Tolkein don't win you points in a serious student of literature's book.

My misrepresentations? Ever hear of a book "Finding God In the Lord of the Rings"? Whether or not Tolkien MEANT it, his books are very Christian.

Although I do find it funny that a Christian is trying to tell me how Wiccan practices are. *smirk*

Hell, the presence of an elemental motif is so rampant due to the presence of eastern thought and western alchemical thought in fantasy fiction as to be almost comical. I'm surprised when I don't see it.

So you admit that Witchcraft is rampant among Fantasy books like Harry Potter.

...and those who list that also list that two-bit hack job Charmed.

Charmed is a Wicca work as well. It's more blatant than Harry Potter!

You mean to tell me that you take the Buffy of the wizardry world as a serious grimoire? Have you even heard of the Arthurian Grimoire, Star? Do you even know some of the possible fates of the grimoires of the middle ages, or own a copy of the Malleus Malificarum or similar texts on the subject?

It's apparent that you've never heard of Touched by an Angel either. But you claim that Veggietales is more blatant than Harry Potter, so I'm just going to ignore you now.

You're quoting from a GEOCITIES site of a person who DOESN'T know Witchcraft and ignoring the websites I give you that are FROM Wiccan's and Witches.

But, according to you, some guy with a GEOCITIES site knows Witchcraft and Wicca a lot better than actual Wiccans and Witches.

These people are idiots. They're still idiots. The associations are tenuous at best between wicca and HP. Yeah, she used some of the imagery, but would you have ever noticed it without research into Wiccan imagery?

Would your kids?

Apparently a lot of Christians who were fighting to have it banned.

I can't take anything else you say seriously. I'm sorry, I just can't.

 

[kiwimac]

What a crock of plant fertiliser! Star, you sources are biased, their research is shoddy and the fact of the matter is that Harry Potter has the same relationship to Wicca that George Bush does to truth in politics, ie, none that can be seen.

Kiwimac

 

[Star_Pixels]

What a crock of plant fertiliser! Star, you sources are biased,

Biased? So it's shocking that a Wiccan page is biased for Wicca? It's obvious that you didn't actually check my sources, else you'd have noticed that small little detail.

their research is shoddy

Oh, so Wiccans don't know anything about Wicca?

and the fact of the matter is that Harry Potter has the same relationship to Wicca that George Bush does to truth in politics, ie, none that can be seen.

So you're saying that only to biased people Harry Potter isn't Religious? Or that it's entirely up to opinion and hidden facts, which is what I've stated before?

 

[Ananel]

Then you don't know Wiccan practices.

Your saying so doesn't make it so. At least my sources can be checked for veracity. Yours are just screaming. Forgive the ad hominem, but if your sources aren't capable of citing actual evidence, aside from half-baked notions of what pagan or wiccan practice is, I'm not going to take them seriously and neither should you.

My misrepresentations? Ever hear of a book "Finding God In the Lord of the Rings"? Whether or not Tolkien MEANT it, his books are very Christian.

Although I do find it funny that a Christian is trying to tell me how Wiccan practices are. *smirk*

Yeah, and the book is wrong. The representations are too weak to make validly. They stretch the text to the point of obscenity, reading in baseless commentary on what truth is hidden behind Tolkein's self-avowed hatred of allegory.

Some themes doesn't equate to actual allegory. Learn the difference between allegory and metaphor. It's basic grammar.

You may smirk, dear, but the point still stands that the sources which actually leave verifiable materials for us to check indicate that Rowling altered Wiccan practice beyond recognition.

If you think that the ceremonies are actually accurate in a near word for word parody of proper wiccan spell-casting and alchemical practices, you're welcome to give some real evidence of this fact. Otherwise, it's a half-witted alteration at best. For a pagan to rely on such half-formed tripe as their proof of wiccan practices explicitly explained in HP is dissapointing to me.

Oh... and by the way, have a look at my sig file. My most recent studies have included Taoism, the Qabbalah, Levitical Law and its permanence and Christian mysticism. I am not your typical Christian, and you'd be wise to remember that when speaking with me.

So you admit that Witchcraft is rampant among Fantasy books like Harry Potter.

I don't believe I said otherwise. If so, it would be a mispeaking on my part. The overarching mythology of 'witchcraft' is present in much of fantasy. How much does this have to do with actual practice?

Approximately 0

It's apparent that you've never heard of Touched by an Angel either. But you claim that Veggietales is more blatant than Harry Potter, so I'm just going to ignore you now.

You're quoting from a GEOCITIES site of a person who DOESN'T know Witchcraft and ignoring the websites I give you that are FROM Wiccan's and Witches.

But, according to you, some guy with a GEOCITIES site knows Witchcraft and Wicca a lot better than actual Wiccans and Witches.

Geocities sites don't always have bad material. The difference between him and you is as follows: He sites sources that can be checked, textbooks, studies and actual factual data. This is a sign of a validated argument. That you don't understand this distinction and are centered on the fact that it's geocities v. paganism shows that you don't know what you're talking about, even if you ARE pagan.

I quoted a site that gave you backed up data to verify. You've done neither verification nor nullification. Your only repsonse? Geocities.

Ad hominem. At least I have reason for insulting the presentations that lack any serious evidence behind them.

And, quite frankly, the Veggietales IS more blatant. It has references directly to the bible, speaks of God (never heard goddess once in HP deary) and you can find references that allow children to straight to the source. It further has most of the facts correct in several of the stories, though some (Shad, Rack and Benny for example) are more heavily altered than others. The consistency is actually fairly strong in many cases.

That you missed on that fact means one of two likely things: 1) You don't know the scriptures well enough to catch references that involve the actual character names and places or 2) you haven't watched the veggietales.

Apparently a lot of Christians who were fighting to have it banned.

I can't take anything else you say seriously. I'm sorry, I just can't.

I have a great deal of trouble taking you that seriously, Star. Claiming "I'm pagan, so I know better" is a logical fallacy from the get-go. Claiming that screaming web pages are better because they're pagan, even though they offer no cited sources to back up their claims, where you can check the geocities site's sources by going to a freaking library is another logical fallacy. Lack of familiarity with basic grammar and attempting to tout LotR as a Christian epic pretty much labels you as in agreement with nuts out of the Christian fringe that want to laud it.

And you're hearing it from a member of the Christian Fringe. They're flat wrong, and they have to add to the story in order to get it to work that way.

 

[Ananel]

Biased? So it's shocking that a Wiccan page is biased for Wicca? It's obvious that you didn't actually check my sources, else you'd have noticed that small little detail.


Oh, so Wiccans don't know anything about Wicca?


So you're saying that only to biased people Harry Potter isn't Religious? Or that it's entirely up to opinion and hidden facts, which is what I've stated before?

By that line of argument, I can claim infallibility within the Christian religion by being Christian.

*spits* Dear, don't give a borderline heretic that much leeway. It's inappropriate.

 

[MoodyBlue]

Keep it all in perspective. It's just a book. It's fiction. Make-believe. No different than "The Wizard of Oz". Or "David Copperfield". Or "The Odyssey".

 

[Carrye]

***MOD HAT ON***

Let's please keep the discussion in here civil,
so that the thread can remain open.
Refute the argument, not the author.

***MOD HAT OFF***

 

[kiwimac]

When Did I become a "Borderline Heretic?"

ITs either FULL heresy or none for this hip-swaggering, hairy-chested, son of a pistol!

Kiwimac

 

[Blackmarch]

Here's another question
<picks up a monkey wrench and hurls it into the works>

what about ancient mythologies, like Greek and Roman mythology?
I find more things that are worse in those than in Harry Potter

How about the Bible?

 

[kiwimac]

Interestingly enough the Phoenix was used for centuries as a Christian symbol. A type of the Resurrection. ALL mythologies have common areas, all mythologies drink from the same spring which is that part of humanity which seeks out the numinous.

The old 'Suffer not a witch to live' only holds sway friend, if you keep all other 613 commandments. It has no part in the "Glorious Life of the Children of God."

Kiwimac

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

HArry Potter got people reading...I'm all for that in school!

Amen The-Doctor. I'm a Christian and I LOVE Harry Potter. It's just fun. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Yes, it is based upon witchcraft and wizardry, but the spells are not real. Even if your child reads HP or watches the movies and pretends to cast magical spells whilst waving a stick in the air what harm will that cause? Seriously, if parents cannot teach their children right from wrong then you can't blame a fictitious series of novels for that. That's like saying if your child pretends to be a cowboy he or she will grow up and wrangle cattle for a living. They grow out of it. It doesn't pique their curiosity to dabble in "the dark side".

 

[Ananel]

When Did I become a "Borderline Heretic?"

ITs either FULL heresy or none for this hip-swaggering, hairy-chested, son of a pistol!

Kiwimac

I am the borderline heretic, Kiwi. Oi, do you people ever read sig files anymore? I put the "Unorthodox Christian" thing up for a reason. And I say borderline because I only acknowledge unorthodox teaching in comparison to mainline Christianity. I don't view myself as a heretic but others would.

 

[Ananel]

Here's another question
<picks up a monkey wrench and hurls it into the works>

what about ancient mythologies, like Greek and Roman mythology?
I find more things that are worse in those than in Harry Potter

How about the Bible?

Too late, already asked it. The question got ignored.

 

[Star_Pixels]

Oh wow, Anal knows a little about Toaism! That must mean he's all-knowing in the arts of Witchcraft.

Oh, forgive my naivity. I've been involved in casting spells since I was ten, but what do I know about witchcraft? You know TAOISM!



And since you're calling historians and people who actually know what they're talking about liars (saying they're stretching the facts and all that jazz) only shows how little you truly know.

So once again, I'm through with this thread. I just had to say that, though.



BTW: if you notice, the bible is banned from school curriculum too. *wink*

 

[kiwimac]

Now Ananel,

I WAS actually being sarcastic. Christians, for some reason, fling the 'Heretic' label about far too easily, IMO.

Kiwimac

 

[Blackmarch]

Too late, already asked it. The question got ignored.

Dang!
....

Now Ananel,

I WAS actually being sarcastic. Christians, for some reason, fling the 'Heretic' label about far too easily, IMO.

Kiwimac

No kidding.

 

[Ananel]

Oh wow, Anal knows a little about Toaism! That must mean he's all-knowing in the arts of Witchcraft.

Oh, forgive my naivity. I've been involved in casting spells since I was ten, but what do I know about witchcraft? You know TAOISM!

All I established in so speaking: Please do not treat me as orthodox, as I am not. I'm sorry that you missed the point, Star.

And since you're calling historians and people who actually know what they're talking about liars (saying they're stretching the facts and all that jazz) only shows how little you truly know.

So once again, I'm through with this thread. I just had to say that, though.

*shrugs* Tolkein called them wrong and pointedly stated why repeatedly both regarding his intent and regarding his method of writing. Perhaps "Liar" is too strong, but their tendency to run hermeneutics of Tolkein fiction without even taking stated author intent and methodology of writing is highly suspect. It ignores the third level of hermeneutics completely and severely hampers the second.

So, I will apologize for calling them liars if I did so, and alter it to say that they're flat wrong and demonstrate severe hermeneutical bais in flagrant disregard of the facts of the author's own testimony and explanations.

BTW: if you notice, the bible is banned from school curriculum too. *wink*

Funny how the Oddesy and Epic of Gilgamesh aren't.

 

[Ananel]

Now Ananel,

I WAS actually being sarcastic. Christians, for some reason, fling the 'Heretic' label about far too easily, IMO.

Kiwimac

Ahhhhhhh, well sometimes sarcasm can be a bit hard to follow in online posts and intent is often easy to misconstrue.

 

[savvy]

Here's a Wiccan journalist who doesn't think HP is witchcraft.

http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/blharrypotter.htm