Should Christmas be Celebrated or Rejected?

[Bro.T]

Please actually read my post and then type up a better reply. Thanks!

I've been reluctant to mention this... but, yes, it is true. I wish I'd bookmarked it but ages and ages agi I found references to informal "holidays" that had previously been set aside for some other pagan religion which had been turned over to Our Lord. None of these celebrations stood the test of time and have thus fallen out of memory. Nobody has done a Christian observance of them in something like 1,500 years. But yes, those occasions were indeed co-opted for a time specifically as a means of, for lack of a better term, religious imperialism. That, I wonder, could be one reason why the Holy Father's headquarters remain in Rome.

I've always been rather fond of the metaphor of Our Lord spiritually bringing the pagan world to it's knees. Apparently I'm not the only one.

Your thoughts seems to fluctuate. Christmas is pagan, it seem as if you are drawing a line between the to. Its know secret that Christmas was instituted by another nation of people before the Rome incorporated the believe to their customs, and adding extra lies and fantasy on top of it. The understanding of where Christmas come from and that is pagan come from the encyclopedia which today we can find some of this understanding by just googling. I see that you defend the Roman Catholic not understanding biblical knowledge of even that organization itself. For example you use the word Holy Father headquarters being in Rome and Jesus say clearly in Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. So the real Holy Father headquarters is in Heaven. That why I believe you don't see the paganism in this Christmas event. In another post I explain where the Romans got their Christmas believe, but you actually didn't read it or believe it.

 

[Bro.T]

Actually, it is entirely scripturally sound on the basis of the Church to determine when best to commemorate specific events in our Lord's life. For example, there is no compelling reason to believe he was baptized on January 6th or transfigured on August 6th. The Paschalion is an approximation.

So it really does not matter.

You be surprise on what matters and what does not matter. When you say the Church...who are you referring to? Because the real Church that the Bible speaks of wouldn't be the Roman Catholics Church we see today. So it does matter because Satan got his hand in a lot of things today. Satan is the God of this world, but is not God, and this is why Paul say in 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[Bob S]

You be surprise on what matters and what does not matter. When you say the Church...who are you referring to? Because the real Church that the Bible speaks of wouldn't be the Roman Catholics Church we see today. So it does matter because Satan got his hand in a lot of things today. Satan is the God of this world, but is not God, and this is why Paul say in 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Satan was defeated at the Cross. We have the Holy Spirit within us. The Holy Spirit is God. Who can defeat God? I wonder where some things come from, certainly not from scripture. It matters not whether we live here or continue into eternity. Claim the promise, Jn 3:16, Jn 5:24.

1. Would you be free from the burden of sin?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Would you o’er evil a victory win?
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
   • Refrain:
     There is pow’r, pow’r, wonder-working pow’r
     In the blood of the Lamb;
     There is pow’r, pow’r, wonder-working pow’r
     In the precious blood of the Lamb.
2. Would you be free from your passion and pride?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Come for a cleansing to Calvary’s tide;
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
3. Would you be whiter, much whiter than snow?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Sin-stains are lost in its life-giving flow;
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
4. Would you do service for Jesus your King?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Would you live daily His praises to sing?
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.

 

[Wgw]

You be surprise on what matters and what does not matter. When you say the Church...who are you referring to?

To the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" referred to in the Nicene Creed, which is by the way the cf.com Statement of Faith.

Because the real Church that the Bible speaks of wouldn't be the Roman Catholics Church we see today.

I did not say it was; I am not, as it happens, RC.

h

So it does matter because Satan got his hand in a lot of things today. Satan is the God of this world, but is not God, and this is why Paul say in 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

However, Matthew 16:18 assures us the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the holy Church.

​

 

[thecolorsblend]

Your thoughts seems to fluctuate. Christmas is pagan, it seem as if you are drawing a line between the to. Its know secret that Christmas was instituted by another nation of people before the Rome incorporated the believe to their customs, and adding extra lies and fantasy on top of it.

Again, if you're not going to read my post, please abstain from replying to it until after you have. Thanks!

The understanding of where Christmas come from and that is pagan come from the encyclopedia which today we can find some of this understanding by just googling. I see that you defend the Roman Catholic not understanding biblical knowledge of even that organization itself. For example you use the word Holy Father headquarters being in Rome and Jesus say clearly in Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. So the real Holy Father headquarters is in Heaven. That why I believe you don't see the paganism in this Christmas event. In another post I explain where the Romans got their Christmas believe, but you actually didn't read it or believe it.

It became clear that you barely read my post so I dashed off a reply to you urging you to actually read what I wrote. Still waiting for that, by the way.

 

[Bro.T]

Again, if you're not going to read my post, please abstain from replying to it until after you have. Thanks!

It became clear that you barely read my post so I dashed off a reply to you urging you to actually read what I wrote. Still waiting for that, by the way.

Maybe it something I don't understand, not sure what you looking for.

 

[Bro.T]

To the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" referred to in the Nicene Creed, which is by the way the cf.com Statement of Faith.



I did not say it was; I am not, as it happens, RC.



However, Matthew 16:18 assures us the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the holy Church.

​

Thats right...the real Holy Church!

 

[Bro.T]

Satan was defeated at the Cross. We have the Holy Spirit within us. The Holy Spirit is God. Who can defeat God? I wonder where some things come from, certainly not from scripture. It matters not whether we live here or continue into eternity. Claim the promise, Jn 3:16, Jn 5:24.

1. Would you be free from the burden of sin?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Would you o’er evil a victory win?
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
   • Refrain:
     There is pow’r, pow’r, wonder-working pow’r
     In the blood of the Lamb;
     There is pow’r, pow’r, wonder-working pow’r
     In the precious blood of the Lamb.
2. Would you be free from your passion and pride?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Come for a cleansing to Calvary’s tide;
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
3. Would you be whiter, much whiter than snow?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Sin-stains are lost in its life-giving flow;
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.
4. Would you do service for Jesus your King?
   There’s pow’r in the blood, pow’r in the blood;
   Would you live daily His praises to sing?
   There’s wonderful pow’r in the blood.

Again we have to read our Bible and pray for understanding. Let's take a look in Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Satan still in business and if you think you have defeated him then you are deceive. The world is steep in to paganism (false God). Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, "... KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS" (Matthew 19:16-19). True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life. But only God at the appointed time will deal with Satan. Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is when Satan will be defeated, mean time, learn to keep those commandments.

 

[Bob S]

Again we have to read our Bible and pray for understanding. Let's take a look in Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan still in business and if you think you have defeated him then you are deceive.

I can plainly see that you do not understand the plan of salvation. Satan tried to defeat Jesus in the garden and all during His ministry. Jesus defeated Satan and sealed his doom. When we are in Christ we too are sealed, sealed against Satan's wrath. Satan cannot take away our eternal life, it is signed and sealed with the blood of Jesus when we accept that shed blood of our Savior and allow the Holy Spirit to be our guide. Claim the promise found in Jude24-25: To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

We are safe in Jesus. Satan HAS been defeated. Jesus has provided the way to eternity. Satan cannot take take that away from us.

The world is steep in to paganism (false God). Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, "... KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS" (Matthew 19:16-19). True saints realize that God's law must be obeyed to receive eternal life. But only God at the appointed time will deal with Satan. Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. This is when Satan will be defeated, mean time, learn to keep those commandments.

That is wrong my friend, Satan was defeated at the Cross and resurrection and is waiting his punishment. he can tempt all he wants, but if we believe he cannot touch us. Does that mean we will not be tested? Absolutely we will, but Jesus has promised he cannot take away our our life eternal. Satan is out on bail. This is part of the plan of salvation planned before the foundation of the Earth. Jesus is commander and chief and don't forget it.

 

[Bro.T]

Again we have to read our Bible and pray for understanding. Let's take a look in Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I can plainly see that you do not understand the plan of salvation. Satan tried to defeat Jesus in the garden and all during His ministry. Jesus defeated Satan and sealed his doom. When we are in Christ we too are sealed, sealed against Satan's wrath. Satan cannot take away our eternal life, it is signed and sealed with the blood of Jesus when we accept that shed blood of our Savior and allow the Holy Spirit to be our guide. Claim the promise found in Jude24-25: To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

We are safe in Jesus. Satan HAS been defeated. Jesus has provided the way to eternity. Satan cannot take take that away from us.



That is wrong my friend, Satan was defeated at the Cross and resurrection and is waiting his punishment. he can tempt all he wants, but if we believe he cannot touch us. Does that mean we will not be tested? Absolutely we will, but Jesus has promised he cannot take away our our life eternal. Satan is out on bail. This is part of the plan of salvation planned before the foundation of the Earth. Jesus is commander and chief and don't forget it.

Interesting how the Bible says Satan deceive the whole world, but you not deceive. Paul say in Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. You keep dealing with these paganism events if you want, they are other Gods. The bible speaks of only one way to get eternal salvation. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) Jesus warned us that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen (Matt 7:13,14). A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, "... KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS" (Matthew 19:16-19).

 

[tiglathpileser]

You use the word "pagan" as if it were a plague. I don't know and really do not care where traditions come from. As long as they do not diminish my relationship with Jesus it does not matter. I am told that the male use of the tie is pagan and points to the male genitalia. That could or could not be true, but who cares. Does paganism control your life? As long as it doesn't diminish my relationship with my Savior one bit it is not relevant. Christmas enhances my relationship with Jesus and my fellow beings. Easter does the same. Birthdays, which some will not celebrate, bring joy to all who celebrate them.

Some people, it seems, go out of the way to try to persuade others to loose what little joys in life we have. Nothing is right with them. They even build religions around those sad beliefs, too bad.

There is as much tradition under the New Covenant as there is under the Old.

For example, where does it say that when we meet together we drink a thimbleful of wine and eat a piece of cracker or bread?

Where does it say that when we meet together that we are to all go to a building thaty holds 400 people and look at the back of people's necks and sing a few hymns and listen to someone spout their wisdom from their understanding of scripture.

Where does it say when we meet together we pass a bag round to collect money?

Where does it say we have to employ someone from a hundred miles away to run the church and pay him a salary?

Where does it say we bring in someone outside of the church, pay him a salary, give him the title of pastor and then expect him to be the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist and the teacher as well?

Where does it say that when someone leads a meeting he has to dress up in fancy clothes?

Where does it say that the congregation is allowed to eat the bread but not drink the wine?

Where does it say that you cannot be the leader of a church unless you have a theological degree?

And so on and so on.

Do these things diminish our relationship with the Lord? They did mine as I had to spend so much time fulfilling the law of the denomination that there wasn't much time to focus on the Lord. it wasn't until I separated myself from denominationalism and its traditions that I realised that it was Jesus first, Jesus second and Jesus last and if it wasn't it was a waste of time.

If the focus is not Jesus I will walk out of the meeting and say goodbye.

 

[Vine and Branches]

If you are a born again Christian, believe that Paul was an apostle of Jesus, and his writings are part of the canon given to Christians as the WORD, he tells us we are not under the old covenant which you are thumping as a reason to celebrate. You would put people back under the law with your "plan". Christianity is not about observing old covenant days. It is about Jesus the Savior of mankind. It is about accepting His grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is about leading our lives in accordance with the law of love. True Christmas is celebrating the birth of our living Savior. What some men have done to it is not in the least what it was designed to be.

Some thump Easter as being pagan. To Christians it is a celebration of the resurrection of our Savior. No, celebrating the resurrection is not something demanded in Scripture, but name me what harm it does to the Christian faith? I can only see good in reminding the World that Christians serve a risen Savior.

The feasts Israel was told to observe pointed to their history or their events. We are not segregated Israel. We are all nations coming together celebrating Christian history. You are free to do your thing, please allow other Christians to do what is pleasing to God without trying to destroy what is good and pure.

Christmas was not even "Christian" to begin with. It was a pagan holiday. So if I took the Satanic Black Mass and made a
holiday about it, would you be fine with it?

 

[Vine and Branches]

There is as much tradition under the New Covenant as there is under the Old.

For example, where does it say that when we meet together we drink a thimbleful of wine and eat a piece of cracker or bread?

Where does it say that when we meet together that we are to all go to a building thaty holds 400 people and look at the back of people's necks and sing a few hymns and listen to someone spout their wisdom from their understanding of scripture.

Where does it say when we meet together we pass a bag round to collect money?

Where does it say we have to employ someone from a hundred miles away to run the church and pay him a salary?

Where does it say we bring in someone outside of the church, pay him a salary, give him the title of pastor and then expect him to be the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist and the teacher as well?

Where does it say that when someone leads a meeting he has to dress up in fancy clothes?

Where does it say that the congregation is allowed to eat the bread but not drink the wine?

Where does it say that you cannot be the leader of a church unless you have a theological degree?

And so on and so on.

Do these things diminish our relationship with the Lord? They did mine as I had to spend so much time fulfilling the law of the denomination that there wasn't much time to focus on the Lord. it wasn't until I separated myself from denominationalism and its traditions that I realised that it was Jesus first, Jesus second and Jesus last and if it wasn't it was a waste of time.

If the focus is not Jesus I will walk out of the meeting and say goodbye.

There is a difference between the holy and the common. If I took the Satanic Black Mass and made a "Christian" holiday from it, would you be offended? We must rightly divide Scripture.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Christmas was not even "Christian" to begin with. It was a pagan holiday. So if I took the Satanic Black Mass and made a
holiday about it, would you be fine with it?

Some certainly would if you called it the Holy Unction Day and people wore black robes (black robes to represent our carnal hearts) and chanted in a circle (prayer warrior circle of course) with decorations of 5 pointed stars in a circle (to represent the sun and the stars which God made.) Maybe it could be celebrated on Oct 31...

 

[Vine and Branches]

Some certainly would if you called it the Holy Unction Day and people wore black robes (black robes to represent our carnal hearts) and chanted in a circle (prayer warrior circle of course) with decorations of 5 pointed stars in a circle (to represent the sun and the stars which God made.) Maybe it could be celebrated on Oct 31...

Jeremiah 10:1-4 KJV - "Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's interesting when you bring that verse up to people how they skirt it by saying it didn't mean the decorated evergreen trees we use today... common sense is not very common when it comes to spiritual matters.

 

[Bob S]

Christmas was not even "Christian" to begin with. It was a pagan holiday. So if I took the Satanic Black Mass and made a
holiday about it, would you be fine with it?

I wouldn't be trying to take the splinter out of my eye until you take the log out of yours. Messianics have doctrines that cannot be explained from a new covenant aspect. Christians are not subject to laws that were specifically for the Israelites and you cannot prove they are. Another thing, while I am on my soap box, you, if you follow your Messianic beliefs, do not consider Paul as being authentic. You will do anything to twist his writings to suit your preconceived ideas. I don't like debating someone who does not take the whole Bible as the Holy Writ.

This thread should not even be on the Sabbath and law forum. It has nothing to do with either.

 

[Vine and Branches]

I wouldn't be trying to take the splinter out of my eye until you take the log out of yours. Messianics have doctrines that cannot be explained from a new covenant aspect. Christians are not subject to laws that were specifically for the Israelites and you cannot prove they are. Another thing, while I am on my soap box, you, if you follow your Messianic beliefs, do not consider Paul as being authentic. You will do anything to twist his writings to suit your preconceived ideas. I don't like debating someone who does not take the whole Bible as the Holy Writ.

This thread should not even be on the Sabbath and law forum. It has nothing to do with either.

My beliefs are not based on pagan holidays for starters. Believers are required to keep Torah after they are saved, if you wish to discuss that please converse with me and see this link about Israel and the Church. Paul's letters are authentic, but they are twisted and could be interpreted into the error of lawlessness.

2 Peter 3:16-17 ESV - "as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures (the only Scriptures they had were the Tanakh and some epistles). You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

 

[Bob S]

My beliefs are not based on pagan holidays for starters. Believers are required to keep Torah after they are saved, if you wish to discuss that please converse with me and see this link about Israel and the Church. Paul's letters are authentic, but they are twisted and could be interpreted into the error of lawlessness.

2 Peter 3:16-17 ESV - "as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures (the only Scriptures they had were the Tanakh and some epistles). You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

is the following hard to understand?
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Thank you my dear Savior for giving me the gift of the Holy Spirit as my guide and not an incomplete set of rules on old cold stones. I will allow the Holy Spirit to guide me into righteous living. Thank you for Your word.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Christmas was not even "Christian" to begin with. It was a pagan holiday. So if I took the Satanic Black Mass and made a
holiday about it, would you be fine with it?

I bet if we looked hard enuff we could find some pagan holiday associated with most every day of the year. So as believers what are we supposed to do, throw up our hands and say all the days are taken so we are out of luck?....