Should Christians try to be good citizens?

Got anything to substantiate your claims with?

To what standard is a good citizen measured? Money/giving?
Christians gave over 300 billion last year..
National Philanthropic Trust - Philanthropy Statistics

Outreach? Feeding/caring for the less fortunate??
I understand that over 75% of the this countries programs that focus on reaching out to those who can not do for themselves are Christian ran and supported organizations..

I don't see the great void you speak of. Respectfully this could be an issue that is addressed in Mt 7:2-6

oldwiseguy said:

I'm not impuning the faith of Christians (as you imply by citing Mt. 7:2-6), just seriously questioning their commitment to being good citizens.

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Were the Apostles "good citizens"? They were murdered.

oldwiseguy said:

Please....

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Please what?

Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.

oldwiseguy said:

...with the non-sequitor.

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So how many will be saved?

Matthew 24:37 (NKJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

oldwiseguy said:

Just the obvious evidence. America is 75 per cent Christian, or 225 million folks out of about 300 million total population. America is in serious trouble in many crucial areas. These problems are caused by the citizenry at large, which as noted is 75 per cent Christian. I believe that if Christians were better citizens our national problems would diminish greatly. Regarding Muslim citizenship; the problems found generally throughout Christian America are almost absent in the Muslim community. This not to say that all Muslims everywhere are good citizens, but the vast majority of those living in America are very good American citizens.

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1) You're talking about people who claim the faith when polled, but according to Barna, only a fraction of the 85% of Americans who claim to be Christians could rightly be called adherents. If somebody's a non-adherent, then Christian reasoning for said person to be a better citizen or a better person will fall on deaf ears.

2) You haven't defined what a "good citizen" is or does. But if it's what I was raised to believe what a "good citizen" is and does, most of the "good citizens" in this country must be, by the numbers, at least nominally Christian.

3) I have not seen a contrast between the behavior of Muslims and Christians myself. I grew up with a couple Muslim guys in my grade. They didn't eat pork, and their dad made them get up for prayers, but they cursed, drank, made coarse jokes, broke the speed limit (including one glorious incident where one was doing 62 in a 25 zone) and generally lived no better or worse than the rest of us. Now, they weren't really "in community" in the sense that one would think of an Amish community or a Jewish community, so your mileage may vary. But from what I've read about Muslim countries, and from what I hear about Muslim exchange students who come here, the youth are hard partiers over there, too. But of course over there, being a "good citizen" will be different, since most of those places are police states. And in those countries, I have no reason to believe that where Christian ethics and Muslim ethics intersect, that the Christians are any worse citizens in their own countries than the Muslims.

4) Concerning the Muslims over here who are good citizens (that means the Nation of Islam, other separatist movements, and mosques tied to international terrorist groups are all out) you're dealing with a much smaller pool of people who have something to prove. Over the last 9 years, they've known that all eyes are on them, so what I've found is they'll generally go out of their way to be nice.

5) We must also consider that first-generation Muslim immigrants generally come from less permissive cultures. This does not contradict my third point; some sins are far less tolerated than others. It might be one thing to have a drink, but Heaven help you if you're a teenage girl and you decide you want to marry someone other than the man Daddy picked for you. When you come from a culture with strict punishments for certain deeds, you'll be that much less likely to do whatever deeds bring those punishments. It takes at least one generation, and in some cases more, for these norms to relax a bit more in families, as they integrate with the culture around them.

6) You also need to tell us what "problems" are "caused" by the citizenry. Is the citizenry causing the massive deficits and inflation of the currency, or are politicians doing that? And one must also consider what laws politicians pass which steer the citizenry to act in destructive ways. Lastly, our government is good and clean compared to the governments of all Muslim countries. Whatever this says about Islam, the comparison is not favorable.

oldwiseguy said:

Just the obvious evidence. America is 75 per cent Christian, or 225 million folks out of about 300 million total population. America is in serious trouble in many crucial areas. These problems are caused by the citizenry at large, which as noted is 75 per cent Christian. I believe that if Christians were better citizens our national problems would diminish greatly. Regarding Muslim citizenship; the problems found generally throughout Christian America are almost absent in the Muslim community. This not to say that all Muslims everywhere are good citizens, but the vast majority of those living in America are very good American citizens.

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Well using this standard let look at a predominately Muslim country As per your original argument, like Afghanistan or Iran.. Are the people who live in countries "good citizens" by your standards? What of the ones who aren't so moderate? They may not have the same problems, primarily because they are not given the same freedoms. That is not to say even in their restrictions, they do not have issues of their own. When is the last time you heard of a group of fanatical extremest Christian Americans hijacking planes and chasing them into another countries buildings? Your simply trading one set of problems for another. A more devout call to Religion is not the answer, nor is being better citizens. These problems are a symptom of a greater issue. In that not all who claim to be "Christian" are.

oldwiseguy said:

Houston, we've got a problem.

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The vast majority have a problem. "Few there be".

oldwiseguy said:

America is in serious trouble in many crucial areas. These problems are caused by the citizenry at large, which as noted is 75 per cent Christian. I believe that if Christians were better citizens our national problems would diminish greatly.

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You're Pat Robertson! You're saying we should be more involved in politics, sticking up for Biblical values!! (Then w/ the favorable picture you paint of Muslims it sorta hints we should outlaw alcohol and many other things, which I'm not so supportive of)

OldWiseGuy-

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5,NIV)

And what are the actions which are termed 'doing right'? Those actions are the same ones which I have labeled 'The Christians Code of Conduct'. Not only are they the way of living which God would have us practise, but they are also the pathway that leads to a stronger and more cohesive society:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The acts of the sinful nature can be described as negativistic, narcissistic and even antisocial. Those who cling to those acts as their lifestyle make poor citizens irregardless of the country they are in.

The fruit of the Spirit can be described as positive, uplifting, cohesive, and even magnanimous. Those who live their lives according to those 'fruits' make for strong citizens, a credit to their community and their country.

The way of living the life of a good citizen is to live our lives as serious Christians endeavoring to do as God would have us do. The stronger we are as Christians, the stronger society is as a direct result.

Harry3142 said:

The stronger we are as Christians, the stronger society is as a direct result.

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This touches on the topic so often seen in our whole Outreach section - objective morality. And here it is on display! Those radical events where believers opposed society always strengthened said society in a positive way.

Objective morality: and it exists because the unchanging G-d not only created everything, but hasn't abandoned us.

oldwiseguy said:

Christians are not very good citizens. (Muslims are actually better citizens than Christians.) Does the bible teach Christians to be good citizens of the nation they live in? If so, why aren't Christians better citizens than they are? owg (scratching head)

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I suspect it is rather easy to be a good citizen of one's country when your religion also functions as a political system.

However, I can think of a few instances when dissent is the only course of action for a Christian. Think Martin Luther King. He was arrested, so obviously, he wasn't a good citizen, eh? Technically, he wasn't. However, doing the right thing sometimes trumps being a good citizen, friend.

Also, I ask that you provide proof that Christians don't do things like give to charities. I know differently- and if I could recall the study saying that Christians are quite giving- I'd cite it. Just because the Islam PR machine is fond of excessive bragging and haughtiness as regarding their alms-giving, modest women, and fasting- doesn't mean that the adherents of another religion aren't out there doing the things good citizens do. (I've had more than my share of personal experiences with haughty and bragging Muslims, irl. I was also chastised for not 'covering up' in an abaya in San Diego, by such a good Muslim citizen. I didn't realize that wearing jeans and a t-shirt, as well as minding my own business, qualified me as the prototype of Western whoredom, but whatever. I just ticked it off as reason number 'I've lost count' as to why I'll never become a Muslim.)