Should Christians try to be good citizens?

[OldWiseGuy]

Once again, my question isn't about religion but citizenship. There is no human litmus test for who is or is not a Christian if they claim to be one. So I must assume that all 225 million (75 percent of 300 million) who say they are Christians are sincere. Because this is unarguable I also must assume that our national problems are mostly the responsibility of those who claim to be Christians. So again the question: Do Christians have a responsibility to be good citizens in the country where they live? I have already outlined what I believe to be the hallmarks of good citizenship. Sadly but predictably everyone who has responded so far has dodged the question. This reveals to me that Christians have no interest in being good citizens of America (perhaps because their 'citizenship is in heaven'). Agree, disagree?

 

[seashale76]

To what standard is a good citizen measured? Money/giving?
Money giving would be near the last on the list. Personal responsibility is the foundation of citizenship. In order of importance: mental health, physical health, spousal/family relations, education, employment, personal/family financial health, health and asset protection/insurance, community involvement/service (including charitable giving). I purposely didn't include involvement in politics as voting has little to do with good citizenship.

Personal responsibility, you mean? Um, sorry to break this to you, but I know a lot of Christians who fulfill the things on your list, just nicely. Of course, you aren't very clear to begin with, even with this post. So, if my being personally responsible in the area of my mental health, physical health, having a strong marriage, having a graduate degree, being employed, living well within my means, having insurance, and being very involved in my community via physically serving in charities as well as charitable giving- isn't what you're talking about, then I have no idea what you're talking about and you've obviously miscommunicated with all of us because we're not in your head with you. All of the Christians I know strive for this as well.

Considering that given my geographical location I'm around more non-Muslim/Christian/Jewish deist types who aren't religious (being in the Bible-Belt and all- seriously- I know more out of the closet non-religious types than religious in the Bible Belt), than I am around either Christians or Muslims- I'd have to say I don't see a difference between the two groups here- and the burden of proof is somewhat on you, anyway to prove otherwise. In the end though, I'm sticking with the overall thought that you've lost me and you aren't making much sense to me. Sorry. You'll have to clarify and explain yourself better.

ETA: I hate to sound harsh with you- but I'm as lost as to what you mean with this thread as I was when trying to figure out what Glenn Beck's rally was about.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Seashale, the question is simple and unambiguous: Does a Christian have a responsibility/duty to uplift the country in which he/she lives by being a good citizen, by living a responsible life in regards to those principles that build up and sustain quality of life for the community. The reason for the question is also simple. If 75-85 per cent of Americans are Christians why do we have the problems that we have? That you and others responding are socially responsible doesn't account for the other 225 million. There is an answer that I would like to see posted for ALL to see (actually it has already been posted but more as an 'aside' than an upfront answer).

 

[Duckybill]

Does a Christian have a responsibility/duty to uplift the country in which he/she lives by being a good citizen, by living a responsible life in regards to those principles that build up and sustain quality of life for the community. The reason for the question is also simple. If 75-85 per cent of Americans are Christians why do we have the problems that we have? That you and others responding are socially responsible doesn't account for the other 225 million. There is an answer that I would like to see posted for ALL to see (actually it has already been posted but more as an 'aside' than an upfront answer).

Christians have no responsibility toward country other than praying for leaders and doing good to others.

 

[Auburn88]

Go to any city in America and you will find Baptist hospitals, Methodist Hospitals, Presbyterian hospitals, etc. There are no Muslim hospitals. All of the great social movements in America began in Christian churches. Christians were behind the abolitionist movement. Muslims, on the other hand, have enslaved countless millions around the world. Christians were behind the women's suffrage movement. Muslims will stone a woman to death just for going outside her home without a male escort. Christians were behind child labor reforms. Muslims routinely use children as slave labor and sex slaves.

Why don't you go to Israel and ask the Jews there how much they like having Muslims as neighbors? Why don't you go to New York City and ask the people who live with the memories of 9/11 how much they like having Muslims as neighbors. Why don't you go to Dearborn, Mi, which now has so many Muslims that it is mockingly referred to as "Dearbornistan" and ask them how they like having Muslim neighbors.

Islam is a nightmare.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Go to any city in America and you will find Baptist hospitals, Methodist Hospitals, Presbyterian hospitals, etc. There are no Muslim hospitals. All of the great social movements in America began in Christian churches. Christians were behind the abolitionist movement. Muslims, on the other hand, have enslaved countless millions around the world. Christians were behind the women's suffrage movement. Muslims will stone a woman to death just for going outside her home without a male escort. Christians were behind child labor reforms. Muslims routinely use children as slave labor and sex slaves.

Why don't you go to Israel and ask the Jews there how much they like having Muslims as neighbors? Why don't you go to New York City and ask the people who live with the memories of 9/11 how much they like having Muslims as neighbors. Why don't you go to Dearborn, Mi, which now has so many Muslims that it is mockingly referred to as "Dearbornistan" and ask them how they like having Muslim neighbors.

Islam is a nightmare.

These are good and true points. However, I have separated religion per se from citizenship per se here. In Dearborn the problems are religious, political, and cultural, all of which are separate from the subject of 'citizenship'. I have outlined some of most important aspects of citizenship earlier. The question is simply if there are so many Christians in America why do we have so many problems that relate directly to citizenship? Shouldn't Christians also be good citizens?

 

[Auburn88]

These are good and true points. However, I have separated religion per se from citizenship per se here. In Dearborn the problems are religious, political, and cultural, all of which are separate from the subject of 'citizenship'.

No, they are all intertwined with citizenship.

The question is simply if there are so many Christians in America

You keep on making this claim and yet, you refuse to explain whether you're defining "Christian" by the Biblical definition (the true and only valid definition), or by the cultural definition, in which anyone can claim to be a Christain, whether they are born again or not or whether they feel any obligation to live in accordance with Christianity or not.

Shouldn't Christians also be good citizens?

I have given you several exampels that show that Christians are, by and large, good citizens. You have shown no evidence to the contrary. The problem is not that Christians are not good citizens, the problem is that you are dishonestly defining Christians so broadly as to include those who clearly are not Christians.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Personal responsibility, you mean? Um, sorry to break this to you, but I know a lot of Christians who fulfill the things on your list, just nicely. Of course, you aren't very clear to begin with, even with this post. So, if my being personally responsible in the area of my mental health, physical health, having a strong marriage, having a graduate degree, being employed, living well within my means, having insurance, and being very involved in my community via physically serving in charities as well as charitable giving- isn't what you're talking about, then I have no idea what you're talking about and you've obviously miscommunicated with all of us because we're not in your head with you. All of the Christians I know strive for this as well.

I have outlined some of the important aspects of citizenship, and you have agreed with them. No problem. "All of the Christians I know strive for this as well". How about Duckybill? He is a Christian and doesn't think citizenship is important. How many more Christians share the same view?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, they are all intertwined with citizenship.



You keep on making this claim and yet, you refuse to explain whether you're defining "Christian" by the Biblical definition (the true and only valid definition), or by the cultural definition, in which anyone can claim to be a Christain, whether they are born again or not or whether they feel any obligation to live in accordance with Christianity or not.



I have given you several exampels that show that Christians are, by and large, good citizens. You have shown no evidence to the contrary. The problem is not that Christians are not good citizens, the problem is that you are dishonestly defining Christians so broadly as to include those who clearly are not Christians.

I have not defined who is or is not a Christian, nor could I. I, like the Forum, must accept that all who believe in all the tenets of the Nicene Creed are genuine Christians. Shining the light on such a one, Duckybill, reveals that not all Christians believe that citizenship is important. Does Duckybill represent a huge number of genuine Christians who have little regard for citizenship? If so should this attitude change in order to preserve the nation?

 

[jacks]

To what standard is a good citizen measured? Money/giving?
Money giving would be near the last on the list. Personal responsibility is the foundation of citizenship. In order of importance: mental health, physical health, spousal/family relations, education, employment, personal/family financial health, health and asset protection/insurance, community involvement/service (including charitable giving). I purposely didn't include involvement in politics as voting has little to do with good citizenship.

This is an interesting, but very difficult questions to ask.

I'd say most people in the US consider themselves to be "good citizens". However what that means is somewhat subjective. Above you have a list of issues, but how one deals with them can vary widely. For example we clearly see divisions between how citizens view health care, family relations, educations, etc. Each may feel that their approach is being a good citizen, while others may feel that they are being bad citizens. Disagreement on the issues doesn't make the other person a good or bad citizen.

Perhaps the only "bad citizen" may be one that is totally apathetic.

 

[Auburn88]

I have not defined who is or is not a Christian, nor could I.

Don't you think you should if you're going to ask such a question, knowing that we define Christian differently?

I, like the Forum, must accept that all who believe in all the tenets of the Nicene Creed are genuine Christians.

Except that neither you nor ChristianForums can show any place in the Bible that says that believing a creed makes one a Christian.

Clearly, you're intentionally misrepresenting the definition of Christianity to include those who are not Christians so that you can impugn Christianity.

 

[The Gentleman Atheist]

Oh what a lot of bother for such a simple question. If you haven't yet read Rousseau's Contract, then I recommend that you do. Then there would be no need for this thread at all.

Wishing you all well.

The Gentleman Atheist

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Except that neither you nor ChristianForums can show any place in the Bible that says that believing a creed makes one a Christian.quote]THANK YOU! That's all I wanted to hear.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Oldwiseguy. Jesus told us the first and great Commandment is: Love the Lord thy God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like unto it: Love thy neighbours as thyselves. Then Jesus ends by saying: " On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Love is what God wants from us, and Jesus showed us what Love really is. St. Paul tells us in 1) Corinthians, chapter 13, verses 4-8, what love really is. Christians who follow Jesus should not only try to be good citizens, they shall be good citizen. " Love thy neighbour as thyself." Who is my neighbour? All I know or meet, friends and enemies, all others. Our Lord is telling us: " Treat everybody as we would like to be treated." I say this with love, Oldwiseguy. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Clearly, you're intentionally misrepresenting the definition of Christianity to include those who are not Christians so that you can impugn Christianity.

Why would I do that? I'm a Christian.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Dear Oldwiseguy. Jesus told us the first and great Commandment is: Love the Lord thy God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like unto it: Love thy neighbours as thyselves. Then Jesus ends by saying: " On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Love is what God wants from us, and Jesus showed us what Love really is. St. Paul tells us in 1) Corinthians, chapter 13, verses 4-8, what love really is. Christians who follow Jesus should not only try to be good citizens, they shall be good citizen. " Love thy neighbour as thyself." Who is my neighbour? All I know or meet, friends and enemies, all others. Our Lord is telling us: " Treat everybody as we would like to be treated." I say this with love, Oldwiseguy. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Good point Emmy. Of course we must be good citizens, but what does that mean? I think we must go beyond loving our neighbor and be involved in some community actions that fall outside our obligations as Christians. "Render to Caesar" as it were. (Voting for a candidate that is clearly the best one for the community even knowing that the political system is corrupt, as an example). Regarding the example in 1 Cor. of 'charity'. I believe these verses refer mainly to the 'propriety' part of agape, which while important is far from the whole meaning. (The four main parts of agape are: Assent of will (towards God), Judgement, Duty, and Propriety). Propriety, as 1 Cor indicates deals mainly with social behavior, self-control, attitudes, etc.