Should Christians support the death penalty?

[FenderTL5]

Well, no He did not.

Yes, He did.
You've yet to show otherwise, no matter how many times you provide links to your own opinion(s).

 

[FenderTL5]

Do you believe the government has the legitimate moral authority to kill people who refuse to comply with it's laws?

Government? yes.
However, we (Christians) are to be like Christ not like government.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Government? yes.
However, we (Christians) are to be like Christ not like government.

Should we as Christians support the government?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I personally don't belive that Yahshua spoke against the instructions of the most high.

If you think Jesus Christ of Nazareth would have no problem throwing the first stone, then we have a different understanding of our Savior.
Blessings

 

[dudleysharp]

Yes, He did.
You've yet to show otherwise, no matter how many times you provide links to your own opinion(s).

He did not, as I proved. It's not the "links" it is what is in the links that proves it. All sources, for you to read, fact check and vet and get backed to us with what you have countered, with the same method.

 

[FenderTL5]

Should we as Christians support the government?

That would depend on what you mean by "support". We are subject to the authority of secular government(s) as granted by God but that does not necessarily mean I/we must be in lock-step approval of all of its action(s) or policies.

 

[FenderTL5]

He did not, as I proved. It's not the "links" it is what is in the links that proves it. All sources, for you to read, fact check and vet and get backed to us with what you have countered, with the same method.

I read them. Every linked article you have posted in reply to me. Yet, in none do you address the words of Christ.

 

[HARK!]

If you think Jesus Christ of Nazareth would have no problem throwing the first stone, then we have a different understanding of our Savior.
Blessings

There's no need to make this personal. I believe Yahshua would adhere to the words of our heavenly father, and fulfill the Torah; as he called us to follow his example.

 

[HARK!]

Yet, in none do you address the words of Christ.

Which words would those be?

 

[FenderTL5]

Which words would those be?

Do you not know the teachings of Christ and where they are found?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That would depend on what you mean by "support". We are subject to the authority of secular government(s) as granted by God but that does not necessarily mean I/we must be in lock-step approval of all of its action(s) or policies.

Well you seem to believe in two different standards for two different kinds of people. Secular people in government may kill in order to maintain law and order. Christians are absolutely forbidden from killing and must regard all life as sacred. Is this a fair assessment?

 

[HARK!]

Do you not know the teachings of Christ and where they are found?

I do. Can you not back up your assertions with scripture?

This looks like a death sentence to me. Wouldn't you agree?

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

 

[lukeh]

Are you claiming that Jesus opposed having a criminal justice system in general? If so, are you sure you want to stand by that assertion? I wouldn't if I were you.

His response made perfect sense when confronted by a bunch of wicked slobs who were playing some kind of sick game to protect their image, prestige, and status. It was not a condemnation on capital punishment per se, to hold otherwise is to read way too much into it.

Regarding another point raised earlier, we don't know what became of the man she was supposedly committing adultery with. I believe it is unreasonable to assume they stoned him ahead of time. The Pharisees had no authority to carry out capital punishment without the approval of the Roman authorities. The more reasonable theories were they either let him go, or he was in on this tawdry scheme of theirs. And this depravity was from a group of people who prided themselves on their supposed righteousness!

Stoning is execution. So no, I'm not denying a criminal justice system is appropriate, I'm saying killing someone does not abide buy Jesus' teachings.

 

[FenderTL5]

Well you seem to believe in two different standards for two different kinds of people. Secular people in government may kill in order to maintain law and order. Christians are absolutely forbidden from killing and must regard all life as sacred. Is this a fair assessment?

Qualified, yes; I think there are areas where Christians are commanded to live beyond the confines of what those outside the Church are allowed. For instance see I Corinthians 5, the Sermon on the Mount recorded in Matthew's Gospel, as well as the lives of the saints that are our examples.
"For what have I to do with judging those outside? Are you not judges of those who are inside? God will judge those outside.."
Yes there are differing standards.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Qualified, yes; I think there are areas where Christians are commanded to live beyond the confines of what those outside the Church are allowed. For instance see I Corinthians 5, the Sermon on the Mount recorded in Matthew's Gospel, as well as the lives of the saints that are our examples.
"For what have I to do with judging those outside? Are you not judges of those who are inside? God will judge those outside.."
Yes there are differing standards.

Yet you said in the initial post I replied to that there are all sorts of social policies we could be supporting as Christians. How can we support the government's said policies when the government itself is against Christian principles (in your view) regarding the sacredness of life?

 

[FenderTL5]

Yet you said in the initial post I replied to that there are all sorts of social policies we could be supporting as Christians. How can we support the government's said policies when the government itself is against Christian principles (in your view) regarding the sacredness of life?

There are policies worth supporting and others to oppose. Governments are not consistent, they are not wholly supportable nor wholly opposable. otoh, They are the authority that we live under and we are to respect.
Policies that I could support and must support are two different things. I could support policy that alleviates hunger, I do not support abortion on demand nor killing in any fashion.

The question on the topic at hand is should a Christian promote the death penalty? For me, the answer is easily no. Christ taught against it.
I oppose capital punishment, euthanasia, and abortion on the same grounds. I try to apply the same principle to health care, war, guns, poverty, issues of race etc.
Life is sacred, all of it.

 

[HARK!]

The question on the topic at hand is should a Christian promote the death penalty? For me, the answer is easily no. Christ taught against it.

I see no evidence of this

Here is what Yahshua himself said that he taught:

(CLV) Jn 7:16
Jesus, then, answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His Who sends Me.

YHWH sent Yahshua. Yahshua taught YHWH's word. YHWH gave instructions to impose the death penalty.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There are policies worth supporting and others to oppose. Governments are not consistent, they are not wholly supportable nor wholly opposable. otoh, They are the authority that we live under and we are to respect.
Policies that I could support and must support are two different things. I could support policy that alleviates hunger, I do not support abortion on demand nor killing in any fashion.

The question on the topic at hand is should a Christian promote the death penalty? For me, the answer is easily no. Christ taught against it.
I oppose capital punishment, euthanasia, and abortion on the same grounds. I try to apply the same principle to health care, war, guns, poverty, issues of race etc.
Life is sacred, all of it.

If you support the government alleviating hunger via tax dollars, you support the government taking tax dollars by force. Those who don't pay taxes are imprisoned or killed or forced to flee if they cannot be apprehended. The entire premise of your idea that the death penalty is wrong is based on the illegitimacy of taking another life. You say as Christians we cannot participate in such actions, yet you make exceptions for other systems that rely on the same power and threat of death. It's wholly inconsistent. Either we support the idea that political units can exercise power by killing people, or they cannot.

 

[FenderTL5]

I don't follow your thought process at all.

If you support the government alleviating hunger via tax dollars, you support the government taking tax dollars by force.

The right to levy taxes is the government's domain. Christ taught on that also.
I don't have to like it, but themz the rulez.

Those who don't pay taxes are imprisoned or killed or forced to flee if they cannot be apprehended.

Since when do we have the death penalty concerning taxes?

Paul taught about the role of government. Christ had some words about taxes also (Render unto Caesar.. ever heard of it?)
Government punishing a thief or tax evader is their role.
If the government establishes a speed limit and I exceed it, I expect the punishment they've established. That's their role.
If government makes Christianity punishable by death, then I'm to expect martyrdom.
That does not mean I must vote for it nor do I support it afterwards.

otoh, St Moses the Black gives the example of how a Christian should respond to the thief. (My camel has want of this bowl also)
The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew's Gospel.. If someone asks for your cloak.. ring a bell?
Yes there's a different standard. Do I always live up to it? No. Of course not, I fail daily.

The entire premise of your idea that the death penalty is wrong is based on the illegitimacy of taking another life. You say as Christians we cannot participate in such actions,

so far.. correct, okay..

yet you make exceptions for other systems that rely on the same power and threat of death.

No I don't. I do not support the death penalty for any reason, including the supposed instances of tax evasion.
I understand that secular governments can and I suppose could, but I do not support it. If they did, you know what, I'm gonna pay my taxes just like Christ taught us to do and avoid the punishments that God allows them to dish out.

Either we support the idea that political units can exercise power by killing people, or they cannot.

Accepting and support for are two entirely different things.

Abortion was legal after Roe v. Wade until recently (depending on where you live), that does not mean that I was under any obligation to participate nor support/promote it. Capital punishment is no different.
Just because governments can in their role, does not mean I have to support it in mine.
I accept the fact that the government can impose capital punishment. I'm opposed thouroughly.

If you want to argue in favor of a death penalty on the merits that it benefits secular government, have at it.
Don't drag Christ or the Church into your death march.

I oppose the death penalty, period, because that is the teaching and the example of Christ.
A major theme of Christianity is that God/Christ has compassion and mercy for those who deserve justice, most certainly me.
Κύριε ἐλέησον

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I don't follow your thought process at all.

That's fine

The right to levy taxes is the government's domain. Christ taught on that also.
I don't have to like it, but themz the rulez.

Why did Christ tell us to pay taxes? Was it because taxes are morally just or is it because if you don't pay taxes you will be subject to the power of Caesar? There are two possible interpretations here and the one that says Christ was justifying taxes seems deeply wrong to me. Christ was giving us pragmatic advice.

Since when do we have the death penalty concerning taxes?

It's not about the death penalty being involved in taxes. It's about the use of force and threat of violence and death that governments can muster. Something you seem willing to justify, despite your belief in the sanctity of life.

Paul taught about the role of government. Christ had some words about taxes also (Render unto Caesar.. ever heard of it?)
Government punishing a thief or tax evader is their role.

Let's not be condescending to each other. Paul actually speaks about the role of government and that they hold the sword for a reason. He was well aware of the Roman usage of the death penalty and didn't speak against it.

If the government establishes a speed limit and I exceed it, I expect the punishment they've established. That's their role.
If government makes Christianity punishable by death, then I'm to expect martyrdom.

I agree that is their role, at the same time we cannot ignore that in order to enforce that law they must be willing to, in the final resort, use lethal force.

That does not mean I must vote for it nor do I support it afterwards.
otoh, St Moses the Black gives the example of how a Christian should respond to the thief. (My camel has want of this bowl also)
The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew's Gospel.. If someone asks for your cloak.. ring a bell?
Yes there's a different standard. Do I always live up to it? No. Of course not, I fail daily.

Well it's not so much that you support the policies listed above, but the other ones you mentioned. Like feeding the hungry. In order to feed the hungry governments have to tax a certain percentage of the population in order to redistribute that wealth. That is accomplished ultimately through power.

so far.. correct, okay..

No I don't. I do not support the death penalty for any reason, including the supposed instances of tax evasion.
I understand that secular governments can and I suppose could, but I do not support it. If they did, you know what, I'm gonna pay my taxes just like Christ taught us to do and avoid the punishments that God allows them to dish out.

It's not about the death penalty in and of itself, but that the government uses force, power and death to establish it's rule. You've said this is a legitimate part of governance, that governments can kill people to enforce law. Yet this is at complete odds with your own Christian standard that all life is sacred. If all governments rely on said power, all of them take life, to one degree or another, how can you advocate for certain laws within them when they all deny the basic idea that life is absolutely and utterly sacred? That no one (apparently) has the right to take life.

Accepting and promotion are two different things.

Abortion was legal after Roe v. Wade until recently (depending on where you live), that does not mean that I was under any obligation to participate nor promote it. Capital punishment is no different.
Just because governments can in their role, does not mean I have to support it in mine.
I accept the fact that the government can impose capital punishment. I'm opposed thouroughly.
If you want to argue in favor of a death penalty on the merits that it benefits secular government, have at it.
Don't drag Christ or the Church into your death march.

Well my arguments for the death penalty are purely pragmatic. I don't rely on Christ or the Church for my position, though I don't believe either contradict my position as well. It's rather people with your position that drag Christ and Christianity into this discussion.

I oppose the death penalty, period, because that is the teaching and the example of Christ.
A major theme of Christianity is that God/Christ has compassion and mercy for those who deserve justice, most certainly me.
Κύριε ἐλέησον

Wrath is also a theme in Christianity and nowhere are we told in the Gospel that states, Christian or otherwise, cannot dispense justice. In fact we are told they can do so for our benefit.