Should Christians make God's teachings offered as a paid only subscription service or buy only book?

[John Robie]

No. Keep reading. Verse 12 says he did not exercise that right.

His choice. That’s the thing about rights. You have them, but you don’t have to use them. They don’t become obsolete if you choose not to, though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

His choice. That’s the thing about rights. You have them, but you don’t have to use them. They don’t become obsolete if you choose not to, though.

But his choice applies to us, as well. For Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1 to follow his example and his example is Christ. Again, you need to show with Scripture where it is taught that the apostles charged money for their letters. This needs to be in Scripture in order for us to do something similar.

 

[HatGuy]

HG.

First thanks for the considered response.

Over the years I have found very few opportunities to discuss these issues because the church operation is considered 'sacred' and not to be questioned - this is very unhealthy.

Thanks Carl, I always enjoy your measured and respectful manner in these forums.

As long as they don't involve the operation of the spiritual gifts.

This is a good point - and I get what you're saying. But of course, we would have to discuss the nature of such gifts, for even 1 Cor 12 considers "administration" a spiritual gift.

 

[John Robie]

But his choice applies to us, as well. For Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1 to follow his example and his example is Christ. Again, you need to show with Scripture where it is taught that the apostles charged money for their letters. This needs to be in Scripture in order for us to do something similar.

It doesn’t apply unless you want it to. And trying to jump ahead and use chapter 11 isn’t the proper use of scripture since he’s mentioned other things in the meantime. He most likely means that he does things for God’s glory, and so should we. But since he said he could receive money, and never says it a sin if you do, then it’s okay if you do or do not.

 

[HatGuy]

But Paul said he did not exercise this right - See 1 Corinthians 9:12 in the Amplified Bible, and or other versions (for clarity). Paul said they were to follow his example (with his example being Christ).

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
(1 Corinthians 11:1).

The fact that Paul did not exercise the right does not make the right no longer a right.

Because Paul did not exercise such a right does not mean no Christian ever has no such right - if that was the case, he would have said as much.

Furthermore, it seems that Paul did not always pay his own way as a tentmaker, he exercised that strategy at times and not at other times.

More about the "follow Christ" thing below.

The context is dealing with the spread of the gospel to different regions or areas. Basically it would be donations for missionary efforts like today. Believers needed money to cover travel expenses in spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 9 is not in reference to how Paul or the other apostles charged money for spread of their letters (Which is now known as Scripture). In fact, nowhere will you find in Scripture of how God's teachings needed to be obtained for a forced and compelled price. You will not find a passage or verse in the Bible because it does not exist.

"Forced"or "compelled" - I fail to see how the selling of books is forced or compelled.

Some situations, aka a cult, this may be the case, and of course Prosperity Gospel preachers do what they do, but that's not to say that the writing and selling of books is inherently evil.

I think believers will simply give so as to help voluntarily in the spreading of missions. Paul's point is that a soldier does get paid not out of his own wages. This is true. Others will pay and help voluntarily and not under compulsion. Paul is saying he did not exercise his right after preaching to say, "Pay up now." Have you ever been to a church that guilt trips in giving at every service? Folks will be convicted in their heart to give what God has purposed in their heart to give (2 Corinthians 9:7). But again, 1 Corinthians 9, and 2 Corinthians 9 is not in any way referring to the exchange of any writings of the apostles for a price. 1 Corinthians 9, and 2 Corinthians 9 is dealing with missionary efforts.

Nowhere did Paul and the other apostles charge money for their letters. We need a verse or passage if book selling on God's teachings is going to work (based on what the Bible says).

For voluntary financial supported missionary work is one thing.
The selling of written works on God's teachings is another thing

But it's okay is a missionary is selling blankets, or something else, right?

Why? 1 Cor 9 says people who preach the gospel should make a living off the gospel! This is how it should be, even if Paul didn't exercise it because it was strategically not going to work for that community.

If the book becomes a success, then manipulation then falls into place.
If a person wants more of the man of God's teachings, he has to pay up to continue. This reminds me of the money changers in the temple. They made God's house a house of profit instead of a house of prayer.

Why on earth does manipulation come into place if a book is a best seller?

I want a book that someone spent a lot of time writing - should I not want to pay for it?Perhaps, if not, I'm the manipulative one?

And one shows their allegiance to money by obeying the monetary ways of this world vs. obeying His Word. Through the traditional business model of book publishing, the goal is to be a millionaire or best seller. Does God want us to be rich? See: 1 Timothy 6 for the answer.

Do you really think the goal is to be a millionaire if you want to write or sell books?

Why? It's not like that for everyone. Most writers I know want to get a message out and be able to focus on doing that, so they find ways to monetize parts of the message so they can focus on doing that. In fact, most writers I know give away a lot of their content for free via preaching, blogging, Youtube etc. Most writers know they'll never become millionaires, as 90% of writers don't.

Working at a job so as to cover the cost for the ministry is different. Paul made a profit as a tentmaker so as not to charge for the gospel. Making a profit so as to accumate great wealth and or to be rich is not God's plan for our life under the New Covenant.

You keep conflating "profit" and "selling" as the same thing as wanting to accumulate great wealth. What's your basis for making such assumptions? Are we actually having a socialist vs capitalist debate?

But his choice applies to us, as well. For Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1 to follow his example and his example is Christ. Again, you need to show with Scripture where it is taught that the apostles charged money for their letters. This needs to be in Scripture in order for us to do something similar.

1. Jesus never wrote anything. Were Paul and John and Peter and James all guilty of not following His example?
2. Jesus never commanded anyone, including the disciples, to write anything - were they disobedient because he never mentioned it?

 

[John Robie]

The fact that Paul did not exercise the right does not make the right no longer a right.

Because Paul did not exercise such a right does not mean no Christian ever has no such right - if that was the case, he would have said as much.

Furthermore, it seems that Paul did not always pay his own way as a tentmaker, he exercised that strategy at times and not at other times.

More about the "follow Christ" thing below.



"Forced"or "compelled" - I fail to see how the selling of books is forced or compelled.

Some situations, aka a cult, this may be the case, and of course Prosperity Gospel preachers do what they do, but that's not to say that the writing and selling of books is inherently evil.


But it's okay is a missionary is selling blankets, or something else, right?

Why? 1 Cor 9 says people who preach the gospel should make a living off the gospel! This is how it should be, even if Paul didn't exercise it because it was strategically not going to work for that community.


Why on earth does manipulation come into place if a book is a best seller?

I want a book that someone spent a lot of time writing - should I not want to pay for it?Perhaps, if not, I'm the manipulative one?


Do you really think the goal is to be a millionaire if you want to write or sell books?

Why? It's not like that for everyone. Most writers I know want to get a message out and be able to focus on doing that, so they find ways to monetize parts of the message so they can focus on doing that. In fact, most writers I know give away a lot of their content for free via preaching, blogging, Youtube etc. Most writers know they'll never become millionaires, as 90% of writers don't.


You keep conflating "profit" and "selling" as the same thing as wanting to accumulate great wealth. What's your basis for making such assumptions? Are we actually having a socialist vs capitalist debate?


1. Jesus never wrote anything. Were Paul and John and Peter and James all guilty of not following His example?
2. Jesus never commanded anyone, including the disciples, to write anything - were they disobedient because he never mentioned it?

I think that covers it.

 

[HatGuy]

I think that covers it.

Hahaha thanks

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks Carl, I always enjoy your measured and respectful manner in these forums.



This is a good point - and I get what you're saying. But of course, we would have to discuss the nature of such gifts, for even 1 Cor 12 considers "administration" a spiritual gift.

If leadership and administration gifts are recognised and celebrated by the local community of believers because God has been seen to raise these gifts up among them then they will be believed and supported because it is a 'family operation'

This is the distinction I want to make... all to often the church 'system' appoints leader 'A' who is on a stipend without a relational connection - I do not believe this process is biblical and promotes 'career christianity'

Family and community should the the heart support for church not some 'distant' administration.

Church leaders used to visit all the church families because they were known and loved.

We have lost our way - now we have a performance and a business.

Of course leaders need support but this should be flowing from the family, not payed by some unknown bean counter.

At the heart of this discussion is an authority conflict and control.

The OT has much to say about the operation of community among His people and the church was born on an existing community operating on these principles.

There was a God appointed authority for this to operate.

These two authorities melded in early acts to great effect resulting in a vibrant church with spiritual fruit never to be equaled...

How come nobody talks about this???

The following story is related not from bitterness but simply to illustrate the point.

The last church I attended we were very committed...

My best friend died suddenly who was well known throughout the country and we had ministered together in the central city for quite some years.

I asked the Pastor if I could say a word about his passing, it was a deep moment for me.

He was unable to make the time to fit me into the tight schedule.

Now if the dynamic was family, there would be an instant warm embrace of the circumstance.

What on earth has happened to us that Church has become this 'something else'

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The fact that Paul did not exercise the right does not make the right no longer a right.

I am not arguing against how a soldier is not to get paid by others. But this giving was voluntary and not compelled giving under the normative means. 2 Corinthians 9:7 makes that point clear. A person is to give what God has purposed in their heart to give and not under some kind of compulsion or guilt trip with a spiritual leader having to demand money from others. If the body of Christ are truly brothers and sisters, then they will be like family and they will love and care for each other like family do, and they will give naturally and there would be no need to demand anything. Paul did not exercise the right for voluntary offerings with the Corinthians.

Because Paul did not exercise such a right does not mean no Christian ever has no such right - if that was the case, he would have said as much.

I am not saying that believers did not have collections. This is obvious because of 1 Corinthians 16:2. They gathered the offerings on the first day of the week. This was to have all things in common and to voluntarily support the missionary efforts of certain believers into certain new regions. It was to cover their travel expenses. This was not an example of charging for the letters Paul wrote or charging money for the letters Peter wrote (Which is a completely different topic altogether).

Furthermore, it seems that Paul did not always pay his own way as a tentmaker, he exercised that strategy at times and not at other times.

More about the "follow Christ" thing below.

I believe Paul when he said he did not want to abuse his power in the gospel and thus that is why he did not charge for the gospel. How does this apply for your life today? Meaning, he did not take voluntary offerings at a certain point in his life. His words here have to apply. Sure, the other believers were to still take the regular collections every first day of the week. This was the normative way for other believers. But sometimes what is always a right, is not always the right thing to do for all. Hence, why Paul and others did something different. For Paul said they did not exercise that right.

For example: It is kind of like with eating meats. If a person eats meat and it offends their brother and it makes that brother to stumble, they may be exercising a freedom of liberty in eating what they want, but they are doing so in a way that is not loving towards their brother (Which is not good).

"Forced"or "compelled" - I fail to see how the selling of books is forced or compelled.

Some situations, aka a cult, this may be the case, and of course Prosperity Gospel preachers do what they do, but that's not to say that the writing and selling of books is inherently evil.

First, Isaiah 55:1 says buy the milk that is without price. What does this part of the verse even mean to you? How was the OT saint to take this particular portion in Scripture?
How can we apply this verse today?

Second, my point about being forced or compelled is in reference to how if a person wants to know about their Pastor's in depth teaching that is not available for free, and they offer a subscription paid service or a paid book, the only way they can get these thing is to "Pay up." They are put into a position of having to buy the book or pay for the online service if they really want to learn more from him and they cannot get all of his teachings for free unlike with Paul and the other apostles. Again, they did not charge money for their letters (Which is now Scripture or a written form of the teachings of God).

But it's okay is a missionary is selling blankets, or something else, right?

Yes. Blankets are not the Word of God. Isaiah 55:1 is not in reference to blankets but it is in reference to communicated Word of God.

Why? 1 Cor 9 says people who preach the gospel should make a living off the gospel! This is how it should be, even if Paul didn't exercise it because it was strategically not going to work for that community.

Right, but it was not about Paul or other apostles selling letters or a written form of teaching of the Word of God. Travel expenses for mission trips is not the same as paying for written teaching of God.

Why on earth does manipulation come into place if a book is a best seller?

God's ways are not the popular and wide gate path. If something is popular, usually there is something being promoted that aligns more with the world's way of thinking, and not the truth of God's Word.

I want a book that someone spent a lot of time writing - should I not want to pay for it?

One can say this about Paul's writings. Do you think the churches paid to obtain them? What do you think his reaction would be if they tried to do that?

Perhaps, if not, I'm the manipulative one?

If God's Word says that we are to buy the milk without price, then it comes down to a matter of obeying what God's Word says, and not what we think is right. Surely there are other secular type businesses or ventures a Christian can run so as to pay for the ministry, instead of having to disobey Isaiah 55:1. Again, this has nothing to do with the voluntary giving of the helping of missionary trips. A book teaching in written form is not the same as a mission trip to spread the gospel that is already pre-established by God's communicated Word. Written teachings are not the same as mission trips in spreading the already established gospel.

Do you really think the goal is to be a millionaire if you want to write or sell books?

Not for me. But for others, it can be a temptation or something that can potentially happen. Some Christian books have sold a million + copies.

Why? It's not like that for everyone. Most writers I know want to get a message out and be able to focus on doing that, so they find ways to monetize parts of the message so they can focus on doing that. In fact, most writers I know give away a lot of their content for free via preaching, blogging, Youtube etc. Most writers know they'll never become millionaires, as 90% of writers don't.

But did they ever tell you that they would be repulsed by the idea of making millions off of their book?
Even if they did say such a thing, if they are confronted with having to face that situation, you cannot honestly predict that they could not crumble under the temptation of all that money being put forth to them.

You keep conflating "profit" and "selling" as the same thing as wanting to accumulate great wealth. What's your basis for making such assumptions? Are we actually having a socialist vs capitalist debate?

I am referring to the violation of Isaiah 55:1. If a person ignores such a truth, it can potentially lead to having the wrong mindset but not always. One sin can lead to another and can it can have a snowball effect.

1. Jesus never wrote anything. Were Paul and John and Peter and James all guilty of not following His example?

Jesus told them that they were to be guided into all truth by the Comforter. This would include the writing of Scripture. My point is that if we are going to follow what the Bible says when it comes to spiritual things, we need to stick with what the Bible says. If one just wants to do their own thing, then by all means, they can. But they have to make sure that what they are doing is not in violation of what His Word says. Isaiah 55:1 tells me that we are to buy the milk without price. Meaning God's Word or His teachings are free and we cannot attach a price tag to them.

2. Jesus never commanded anyone, including the disciples, to write anything - were they disobedient because he never mentioned it?

You have to put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle to fit the truth together. Paul said of his own writings should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:37). Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:16). 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Meaning, it is God breathed by the Spirit. We worship one God who exists as three distinct persons. The Spirit dwells in Christ, as well. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). We get our faith by hearing the gospel message from Scripture. Our faith continues in obeying the commands that come from Jesus and His followers, too. We would not even have faith without the communicated Word (the Bible). In the Bible, we are commanded by Jesus Himself to believe in Him. So while we do not have a written record of Jesus commanding the apostles to write Scripture, we know that God in general wanted the Scriptures to be the way in which He would communicate with us today. For all the commands from Jesus that we know of come from Scripture or the Bible. Jesus is one with God the Father, as well. No doubt the existence of Scripture was not some accident, but it came about about God's authority to make it happen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It doesn’t apply unless you want it to. And trying to jump ahead and use chapter 11 isn’t the proper use of scripture since he’s mentioned other things in the meantime. He most likely means that he does things for God’s glory, and so should we. But since he said he could receive money, and never says it a sin if you do, then it’s okay if you do or do not.

Again, Paul was referring to missionary travel expenses and he was not referring to charging money for written teachings of the Word of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I wonder how much of this discussion boils down to what God stirs within the individual ??

Paul chose a more narrow way - he didn't have to.

When I came out of darkness as a musician, I made a vow not to use my music gift for any purpose but to further His Kingdom. - I didn't have to.

I wanted to out of deep gratitude.

Sometimes we look for rules and principles when a matter is being resolved between God and the individual and we must be careful not to Judge.

Could this issue be in this category?

Just a thought...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wonder how much of this discussion boils down to what God stirs within the individual ??

Paul chose a more narrow way - he didn't have to.

When I came out of darkness as a musician, I made a vow not to use my music gift for any purpose but to further His Kingdom. - I didn't have to.

I wanted to out of deep gratitude.

Sometimes we look for rules and principles when a matter is being resolved between God and the individual and we must be careful not to Judge.

Could this issue be in this category?

Just a thought...

Time and time again we read in the Bible that disobedience to God's Word as the problem from man. Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees because they obeyed the commandments. They actually did not obey God. That was the problem. For Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So surely the rules of God are not the problem here, friend. They are the source of what causes us to love. Jesus even commands us to believe in Him and to love one another (1 John 3:23). The two greatest commandments is to: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus said, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

Of course this would be obedience to what Jesus and His followers command of us, and not the Laws given to us by Moses.

Anyways, in conclusion:

Rules from God are never the issue or problem, but they are actually our source of our delight, they are a light, and they are faithful to our lives.

"Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction." (Psalms 119:92).

"For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:" (Proverbs 6:23).

"All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me." (Psalms 119:86).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Of course this would be obedience to what Jesus and His followers command of us, and not the Laws given to us by Moses.

There is also the Living Word within Who corrects us through conviction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is also the Living Word within Who corrects us through conviction.

Yes, my friend; As you are aware, I created a thread on the connection between the Living Word and the Communicated Word.

The Living Word & the Communicated Word.