Should Christians Hunt?

[Beastt]

You'll also notice a wide array of Bible translations that have already translated it as such,[murder]

Exodus 20:13

NIV
"You shall not murder."

NASB
"You shall not murder."

MSG
"No murder."

AMP
"You shall not commit murder."

NLT
"Do not murder."

ESV
"You shall not murder."

CEV
"Do not murder."

NKJV
"You shall not murder."

YLT
"Thou dost not murder."

HCSB
"Do not murder."

NIRV
"Do not commit murder."

NIVUK
"You shall not murder."

That's twelve that I could find, and there are five that still use the word "kill",

KJV
"Thou shalt not kill."

KJ21
"Thou shalt not kill."

ASV
"Thou shalt not kill."

DARBY
"Thou shalt not kill."

NLV
"Do not kill other people."

And, oddly enough, one of those five goes out of the way to exclude animals. Now, some translations are better than others, and I make no claims that these are all good translations. Honestly I just thought it'd be neat to have a look at.

Well, it is interesting. But we need to remember that what we're looking at are translations - man's translations. When men look upon a contradiction and attempt to sort out what change to the wording might alleviate that contradiction, they are attempting to improve on accuracy. But this may or may not be the outcome. Replacing the word "kill" with the word "murder" may eliminate the contradictions you have I have discussed. But, as I have stated before in this thread and others, it introduces some new problems.

What is murder? Most definitions assert that it is the illegal taking of a life - usually, (if not always), a human life. But there are times when a human life may be taken and it is not considered murder. The specifics of what does and what does not constitute murder vary from location to location because "murder" is defined by man's law. If I pick up a gun and shoot someone, causing their death, is this murder? We can't answer that question because we don't have enough information. If they were aiming a gun at me with the intent to shoot, or leaving me with sufficient reason to fear for my life, then it is justifiable homicide. Likewise, if the perpetrator appears to be attempting to kill a family member, I may be legally justified in killing them as a last resort to prevent them from shooting a loved one. In some locations, I can even shoot someone to prevent them from killing a stranger. In other locations, using deadly force which leads to a loss of life, to save the life of a stranger is still murder. So if I take an action that results in loss of life in one state, it is not murder and therefore not a violation of God's commandment. If I take exactly the same action, under exactly the same circumstances, in a different state, I am guilty of murder and of violating of God's commandment. Not because God's commandment has changed, but because it relies on man's law for its criteria.

The specifics concerning murder/justifiable homicide, change from place to place because they are written by man and adopted into statute through the legislative process. This process undergoes revisions on a not infrequent basis. So by altering the commandment to "thou shalt not murder", you are claiming that God passed a commandment to man which man is allowed to re-write. It becomes nothing more than man's law which we already have. It is no longer of God. It is an open-ended commandment, ready to accept man's substatutes and exceptions in order to define that which is prohibited. So if a state makes it legal to kill a man for stealing property worth more than $100, then to do so is not illegal nor is it a violation of the commandment. To take this further, many of the atrocities of the holocaust are no longer violations of God's commandment, because they were sanctioned under German law during that period. Any taking of life sanctioned by any government, suddenly becomes sanctioned by God. Unjust wars remain unjust. But the taking of life during engagement in battle is legal and therefore, in compliance with God's commandment.

I still believe that the context of the Bible is perfectly sound for understanding the meaning of the word "kill" regardless of weather or not it has been narrowed down already to the word "murder". And I believe that meaning is murder. I've already posted some examples of context in a previous post, so I won't get into to that again.

I find it interesting that Christians often tell us that we are incapable of understanding the ways and workings of an omnipotent, perfect being. Then we are told by those same Christians that we can safely wade through the contradictions of the Bible and re-write scripture in order to eliminate the contradictions and end up more with what God intended rather than less. If we are too feeble to understand God, then it would seem to follow that we are unworthy of taking editorial license with his commandments.

Now, you imply lightly that we Christians are using the Bible instead of science in our decisions, presumably our decisions to eat meat, hunt, and so forth.

My response is simple, I see no problems here. I have yet to see science prove that we do not have "the image of God" or that animals do.

That's a fine argument and a perfectly sound point. But it has nothing to do with what I was speaking of. I was less specific than I might have been because I was attempting to retain the original intent of the thread; hunting rather than diet.

1. Genesis shows God designing man as a vegan

2. Nowhere in the Bible does it show God changing man to process meat

3. Human physiology today aligns man with the herbivores

3. When man processes (digests) meat, he becomes far more prone to illness

4. When man consumes meat, he places demands on the environment that cannot be sustained.

5. When man hunts, he creates an imbalance in the natural interaction of predator and prey.

6. The Bible originally said, "thou shalt not kill".

I think there a too many presumptions here for us to even begin to debate the scientific evidence this far down the logic train.

As I have offered to others, numerous times, if you care to hear more about the scientific basis, I'll be happy to discuss this on a thread intended for a discussion of diet. To date, I have seen no takers.

If you don't mind, without getting too scientific, why shouldn't we kill and eat animals? Why do you believe we shouldn't?

Generally, for the six points I posted above. I am less compelled by the wordings of the Augustine and Origen versions of the ten commandments than I am by what science has to say. But when they back each other so clearly, there is no reason to disbelieve either. We are not designed to kill and eat animals. The ecology suffers when we engage in these practices. Our health suffers when we engage in these practices. Our human compassion suffers when we engage in these practices. These practices are among the most major of the factors in preventable disease in developed countries today. The animals suffer needlessly when we engage in these practices.

 

[immersedingrace]

I don't see a problem with it as long as you are hunting for food.

I see no problem hunting for SPORT as long as the "prize" is consumed. There is nothing anymore "unchristian" in THIS sport than there is in men spending money to go to a sports game, or in playing sports.

blessings

 

[immersedingrace]

I just dont understand why Anyone would want to purposely go out and kill something?
And this is coming from a person who used to hunt..until i figured out that I do not enjoy being responsible for killing and destroying parts of god creation.

See, that's the BEAUTY of individuality, you don't NEED to understand it. God created each of us differently and some of us enjoy the same activities throughout our lives, and some, like yourself, change your perspective. There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't call it unchristian to hunt just because you don't SEE the logic in it.

blessings

 

[ronaldp]

Hi I have been taught that the ten commandments apply to men and not animal. In the terms of thou shalt not kill, I'm pretty sure that God means that you are not suppose to kill another men. There are so many people who loves animal these days and I'm one of them, but just because you love animals it doesn't mean that you put them to the same level as human beingsl. Human beings are created in the image of God and we are His most precious creation. We can't put animal before humans, because human beings are our brothers and sisters not animals. No matter how much I love animal (exotic birds in particularly) I put my God and then human beings first and then animals. If I ever come to in a situation where I need to save either my brother or an endangered animal that only one exist, then in a heartbeat I would save my brother, because human beings are more important than any animals no matter how endangered or how much I cared for them. And God did tell that men can kill and eat animals, for example in Deutoronomy 14 when it says what type of animals that you can eat. And then again in Acts 10 when Peter has the vision of the animals, and there some more verses . Plus in the bible there has never been a sacrifice to God that is not animals. God allowed men to kill animal for the purpose of eating. In the matter of hunting for sports, I think that's up to human beings whether they want to hunt or not, because it's not against the bible. Personally I think hunting is not really a sport anyway, but if you want to hunt you should be able to, but at the same time we should not go overboard an kill every animals, because we are suppose to take care of the world that is given to us.

 

[Ryder]

I find it interesting that Christians often tell us that we are incapable of understanding the ways and workings of an omnipotent, perfect being. Then we are told by those same Christians that we can safely wade through the contradictions of the Bible and re-write scripture in order to eliminate the contradictions and end up more with what God intended rather than less. If we are too feeble to understand God, then it would seem to follow that we are unworthy of taking editorial license with his commandments.

1. Genesis shows God designing man as a vegan.

2. Nowhere in the Bible does it show God changing man to process meat.

3. Human physiology today aligns man with the herbivores.

3. When man processes (digests) meat, he becomes far more prone to illness.

4. When man consumes meat, he places demands on the environment that cannot be sustained.

5. When man hunts, he creates an imbalance in the natural interaction of predator and prey.

6. The Bible originally said, "Thou shalt not kill."

Genesis 9:2-3 KJV
The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

I notice a few contradictions in your line of thinking here...

 

[Beastt]

1. Genesis shows God designing man as a vegan.

2. Nowhere in the Bible does it show God changing man to process meat.

Genesis 9:2-3 KJV
The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

I notice a few contradictions in your line of thinking here...

The contradictions are within the Bible, not in my line of thinking. Compare your passage from Genesis to Genesis 1:29 and you'll see what I'm talking about. Genesis 1:29 occurs before orginal sin, Genesis 9:2 occurs after. The Bible indicates that God did not intend for man to act as a predator. Man was given a body anatomically consistent with a herbivore. He was placed in an environment unable to support the demands of a mammal the size of man and as prolific as man, acting as a predator. (You'll note that in nature, predator species always have a far lesser population than that of their prey). What you are showing with your quotation from Genesis is God saying, I originally gave you plants to eat, now I give you animals as well. This is permission, not a restructuring of man's anatomy or physiology to properly digest animal flesh. Since God did not rewrite the commandments upon giving this permission, it is not illogical to assume that to accept God's concession is still a violation of the commandment not to kill. If we look to biology for a classification of man, we find that he is not designed to digest animal flesh nor is he designed as a predator is designed; with the tools of predation. This fits with Genesis 1:29 and with the idea that man's body did not undergo physiological changes to cope with the permissions given. Medical evidence today is also consistent with this.

A parent may give permission to their child to smoke. This doesn't mean that the child will not suffer the effects of smoking. This physiological incompatibility with predatory habits is not a small factor. A quick look at the leading causes of death in the U.S. will show that the vast majority of preventable deaths are due to heart disease, cerebrovascular disease and cancer. Those who engage in predatory practices, (consumption), are 15-times more likely to suffer heart disease than those who do not. They are more than twice as likely to suffer from cancer. Clearly our bodies are not designed for such a lifestyle,and to force such a lifestyle upon them, shortens our lifespan. Preventable deaths due to heart disease, cerebrovascular disease, cancer and diabetes accounted for over 1.4 million of the 2.4 million deaths in the U.S. in 2002. Figures for 2001 are nearly identical. It is not a small problem. It is the leading cause of preventable death in developed countries. The cruelty and suffering is not limited to the animals who die for such practices.

"Well, I didn't intend for you to live that way and you will suffer for it if you choose to do so, but I guess if you want to, then go ahead." Does this sound like an all-knowing, all-powerful God giving instruction to his creation? Or does it sound more like a human author trying to regain lost acceptance for his writings? Of course, when the Bible was written, humans didn't clearly understand the different physiologies of predators or the reasons for them. Nor did they understand the adverse affects on human health that would result. If we assume that God exists and that he created man, would it not also stand to reason that he would understand the different physiologies and the consequences of mixing physiologies and habits of consumption?

6. The Bible originally said, "Thou shalt not kill."

Both the Augustine and Origen versions of the ten commandments show the commandment as "thou shalt not kill". The original Hebrew, "lo tirtzach", according to The Complete Hebrew/English Dictionary, (Rueben Alcalay), includes "all kinds of killing".

Only where man has tampered with the commandments does it say, "thou shalt not murder". Though over the past several decades more and more publications are making this change, this is a change of scripture to suit man's desires. Clearly, man is able to change his habits but not his physiology. So we turn to medicines and continue the practices which cause the diseases. One must wonder, with all the advertising on television, how many children today believe that heart attack is the result of an aspirin deficiency.

 

[PACKY]

See, that's the BEAUTY of individuality, you don't NEED to understand it. God created each of us differently and some of us enjoy the same activities throughout our lives, and some, like yourself, change your perspective. There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't call it unchristian to hunt just because you don't SEE the logic in it.

blessings

Hmmmm....dont remember ever saying it was "unchristian" please offer some evidence to give your allegation credibility.
I agree that there is a unrefined beauty to mans Individuality.
The main reason to author this thread was simplely because to stay silent is to agree.. Thanks for the response and the debate.
peace and Blessings.

 

[lisarn]

For those of you who do not believe in killing animals, how do you feel about abortion?

 

[Beastt]

Hmmmm....dont remember ever saying it was "unchristian" please offer some evidence to give your allegation credibility.
I agree that there is a unrefined beauty to mans Individuality.
The main reason to author this thread was simplely because to stay silent is to agree.. Thanks for the response and the debate.
peace and Blessings.

In short...

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

 

[ChrisWins]

I bet some nice, tasty reindeer stew would slow him down!

God provided and it's sure gonna taste good for my dinner!
My prey shot by my own rifle did not die for nothing.
Praise God for His wonderful animal creations which provide us with fuel to keep us going, to do His work. Be very thankful for the tremendously delicious bounty He provides. Thank you, oh, Lord, for this scrumptious meat in my bowl. Thank you

 

[immersedingrace]

Hmmmm....dont remember ever saying it was "unchristian" please offer some evidence to give your allegation credibility.
I agree that there is a unrefined beauty to mans Individuality.
The main reason to author this thread was simplely because to stay silent is to agree.. Thanks for the response and the debate.
peace and Blessings.

And I don't recall saying you DID call it unchristian, but rather recall saying this: "Just don't call it unchristian to hunt just because you don't SEE the logic in it."

Which is a request that you DON'T.

Blessings

 

[Beastt]

And I don't recall saying you DID call it unchristian, but rather recall saying this: "Just don't call it unchristian to hunt just because you don't SEE the logic in it."

Which is a request that you DON'T.

Blessings

Would you consider the act of causing needless suffering, unChristian?

 

[Redneck]

I don't have time to read the whole contents of the thread, but I give you

Genesis 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

[Beastt]

I don't have time to read the whole contents of the thread, but I give you

Genesis 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Parents have dominion over their children. Is this a provision for using a 12 guage with 00-buck as a disciplinary tool?

 

[immersedingrace]

Would you consider the act of causing needless suffering, unChristian?

As we're talking about hunting, which is a means of supplying FOOD, I, and others, don't consider it "needless" suffering. I believe that the bible gives us dietary guidlines. NOWHERE in there does it disclude hunting, despite attempts by some to make it so.

Having said that, YES I would say that causing "needless" suffering would be unchristian. We can agree on THAT point, what we will NEVER agree on is that killing for FOOD, whether it's recreational hunting or on a farm or fishing or whatever, is "needless".

Blessings

 

[Ryder]

Beastt, you can try to explain it away all you like, but God did give us permission to eat animals. He also ordered them killed as sacrifices to Himself (explain the health and herbivore issues of that if you can). And God kills animals Himself too, along with people for that matter (do we remember the flood). So quite frankly, I see your arguments as a wraithing of the Scriptures.

 

[Ryder]

For those of you who do not believe in killing animals, how do you feel about abortion?

Great question!

 

[Beastt]

Beastt, you can try to explain it away all you like, but God did give us permission to eat animals. He also ordered them killed as sacrifices to Himself (explain the health and herbivore issues of that if you can). And God kills animals Himself too, along with people for that matter (do we remember the flood). So quite frankly, I see your arguments as a wraithing of the Scriptures.

Do you believe God ate those sacrifices -- took them into a physical body, much like our own, as food? Do you believe, (apparently you do), that this unchanging God used to want sacrifices of innocent animals to atone for the guilt of man? I know that some do believe that as they believe that God is just and loving. Such requests/requirements are neither just nor loving. If they were, we would live in a society which believed that the guilt of convicted criminals could be elimintated by an animal sacrifice.

The concept of flesh and blood sacrifices are not a dietary issue. I'm not sure how you are trying to tie that to herbivorous nature or health, as related to diet. They are also a rather primitive concept, attributable to primitive minds and primitive thought processes.

Obviously, anatomy, biology, physiology and medical evidence are all in agreement here. And they agree with some of what is said in the Bible while disagreeing with other parts of scripture. This is because the scripture fails even to support itself. The flood is an interesting piece of Biblical literature. But we live on the planet on which it is said to have occured. Such an event would leave unquestionable geological evidence. Most geologists agree that it never happened. Aside from that, the claims that rain was unknown to the Earth prior to the flood is not possible. Rain is a necessary part of the water cycle. If you have enough water (Earth does), temperatures consistent with human life and an atmosphere, rain will occur. Between the atmosphere and the oceans, we don't have enough water to completely cover the Earth. If we don't have it now, we couldn't have had it then. (Earth's water supply is fairly stable. Between the losses at the magnetic poles and the gains from ice-laden meteors, the supply increases, very slightly, over time.) If I were to rely on a fictional novel as a guide to life, chances are I would tend to believe a few things that weren't terribly believable. I would also behave in ways that weren't terribly natural -- some might even be considered wrong. All that said, I will give you that the Bible does make such claims. Do you consider all of God's instruction to man to also be God's instruction to himself?

Run through this little scenario in your mind. If you have young children, (4-6 years of age), picture them in the following experiment. Bring home a carrot from an organic produce store -- one with the green stalks still attached. (If you prefer you can grow the carrot yourself.) Offer it to your children to play with. After they have played with it for a time, take it from them and while they watch, cut the green tops off, wash it, slice it into pieces and offer it to them to eat. Note their reactions.

The next day, stop by a farm supply store or pet store and purchase a young rabbit. Bring it home to your children and let them play with it and pet it for an hour or so. Then reach out and take the rabbit from them and while they watch, grasp the small bunny's head and twist it sharply to break the neck. (This is a mental exercise, not a physical one. I ask that you not actually do this, just imagine it). Now pick up the knife you used to slice the carrot and slice the rabbit's carcass down the middle. Reach in and pull out the still warm entrails. Remove the skin and carve away some portions of the musculature from the skeleton. Offer these pieces of flesh to your children to eat. Observe their responses and compare those to the responses received with the carrot. You needn't worry about food poisoning or parasites from the uncooked flesh. God has seen to it that the stomachs of predatory animals contain acid strong enough to render such hazards harmless. You also needn't worry about the impact on their psyche. Predatory animals often bring home small live animals to their young, to teach them how to catch and kill prey. (Should you decide to actually do this, I wouldn't recommend that you allow Child Protective Services to know of your actions. Chances are they don't understand the Bible as you do and will interpret this as emotionally and psychologically harmful to the children, as would any psychologist.)

 

[rachewil15]

I think God put animals on this earth for us to enjoy, not for us to eat. Although we need to survive, there are alternatives to eating animals. Nice question!!

 

[Beastt]

As we're talking about hunting, which is a means of supplying FOOD, I, and others, don't consider it "needless" suffering. I believe that the bible gives us dietary guidlines. NOWHERE in there does it disclude hunting, despite attempts by some to make it so.

Having said that, YES I would say that causing "needless" suffering would be unchristian. We can agree on THAT point, what we will NEVER agree on is that killing for FOOD, whether it's recreational hunting or on a farm or fishing or whatever, is "needless".

Blessings

I fear you are correct that we will continue to disagree. But as for the idea that it is a necessity to kill animals to obtain food, this is obviously not supported by any scientific method I'm aware of. Even the most conservative of nutritionists now admit that consumption of animals is not necessary to maintain health. Most nutritionists now caution against such foods as being unhealthy. So the assertion that killing animals is "necessary" falls flat.

A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite.

--Leo Tolstoy​

​

That pretty much leaves the pain and suffering created by hunting in the "unnecessary" category.