Should an ex-Christian be able to explain why?

[cloudyday2]

If you really believed? Did you know at some point Jesus is real? Or, was your experience more of a hopeful desire? A hope that he be real that made you "believe?"

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day." Jn 6:44​

That means? God must do the drawing... and its subconscious and invisible as a process.

All the brainwashing in the world can not make you saved. It has to be a "knowing" belief. Not a, "I hope so," belief. Muslim children grow up believing in Allah via cultural conditioning. Ask one if he believes in Allah? You will be told,"yes." Yet? Is Allah real? Its why "Allah" can not make a Muslim confident and secure with his faith. They must do works to be saved for that reason. There is no real contact made to give them assurance like God does ... only a concept is ingrained. But, they will assume they have believed in Allah. They will even get themselves killed to try to overcome their doubting.

So maybe you can describe why you believe? I can tell you why you don't really believe even though you think you do

 

[GenemZ]

So maybe you can describe why you believe? I can tell you why you don't really believe even though you think you do

My point was.... If you truly believed? You can not say you no longer believe. That's the point of my reasoning with you. You can not "unbelieve" something that is, and was believed. If you can "unbelieve?" Then there was nothing to believe to begin with. How can you stop believing what you know is real?

 

[High Fidelity]

I'm sure a lot could but choose not to.

There's no real point in explaining it anyway as it isn't going to make any difference and, for example, if I explained my reasons here it'd likely break the rules because there's no pleasant way to describe it or my feelings towards faith or god.

 

[Par5]

My point was.... If you truly believed? You can not say you no longer believe. That's the point of my reasoning with you. You can not "unbelieve" something that is, and was believed. If you can "unbelieve?" Then there was nothing to believe to begin with. How can you stop believing what you know is real?

Many children believe that Santa Clause is real, then at some stage stop believing that Santa really exists. I don't know of any adults who believe in Santa, so many of them have indeed gone from a state of belief to one of not believing.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm sure a lot could but choose not to.

There's no real point in explaining it anyway as it isn't going to make any difference and, for example, if I explained my reasons here it'd likely break the rules because there's no pleasant way to describe it or my feelings towards faith or god.

What do you think about people like myself where the faith just seemed to die bit by bit and it seems impossible to remember why specifically? I ask myself if I made a mistake somewhere in my reasoning, but I can't remember the details of my reasoning. Mostly I just read some books about the history of Judaism and Christianity and I discussed religion on forums like this. I look at intelligent Christians who have read the same books and participated in similar discussion on CF, and I wonder why they didn't reach the same conclusion as me.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Many children believe that Santa Clause is real, then at some stage stop believing that Santa really exists. I don't know of any adults who believe in Santa, so many of them have indeed gone from a state of belief to one of not believing.

...I believe in St. Nicholas; and I believe he lives. St. Nick Lives! (...that needs to be put on a T-shirt).

(Beautiful Orthodox icon rep. of St. Nick)

The Spirit of Christmas, painting by Greg Olsen (Awesome!)

 

[GenemZ]

Many children believe that Santa Clause is real, then at some stage stop believing that Santa really exists. I don't know of any adults who believe in Santa, so many of them have indeed gone from a state of belief to one of not believing.

God will make Jesus REAL to the one having true faith...

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me;
and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and
will disclose Myself to him.” John 14:21​

He is the Word.. John 1:1. Keep gaining more of the Word (find a really good pastor) and keep growing in knowledge. More important than following that "formula." ... Its about truly WANTING knowledge of the Word. Its not an experiment. Its something that happens when a soul is genuinely wanting to become closer to God.

Satan has no problem knowing Jesus is real. He just does not want to know Him. Men are like that too. The worst offender are the religious types with their rituals and customs that create an illusion of having something when its really nothing. Knowledge of Truth and living it by the power of the Spirit is what God seeks in a man.

 

[GenemZ]

Of course I believed. I was brainwashed from the crib to believe in Christianity. Everybody I knew either believed or kept their disbelief discretely hidden. It never even occurred to me that Christianity might not be true until I was in college.

College was the most depressing experience for me. It was an institutionalized attack on all values I cherished and believed in.

Atheism seemed so ridiculous that I suspected atheists must secretly believe in God.

Nothing can not create something. Everything else they have to say is simply intellectual razzle dazzle until they can prove that from nothing something can be created. Matter could not be eternal. If it were? Then it could never age.

I assume you are coming from the "once saved always saved" perspective, but "believe" has a definite meaning in the English language. If my case contradicts your theology, then it's time to revise your theology rather than denying reality.

I am wondering what brought that into the discussion. Can you explain what brought that on?

 

[GenemZ]

I'm sure a lot could but choose not to.

There's no real point in explaining it anyway as it isn't going to make any difference and, for example, if I explained my reasons here it'd likely break the rules because there's no pleasant way to describe it or my feelings towards faith or god.

I would be more interested in as to "why" you ended up feeling that way. Family influence?

 

[cloudyday2]

College was the most depressing experience for me. It was an institutionalized attack on all values I cherished and believed in.

It wasn't that way for me, because my college was focused on science and technology. It is hard to make differential equations into an attack on your values LOL. I was a little shocked to see guys openly kissing each other. I was pretty insecure about my own sexuality, and it made me uncomfortable. Our male female ration was 8 to 1, so that was certainly a discouraging aspect of college for me.

I definitely agree that most colleges probably have the effect you encountered. People take classes on philosophy and comparative religion, and there are lots of liberal causes promoted, and there are wild parties and drugs and sex and so forth. I missed out on all that fun (fortunately or unfortunately )

I am wondering what brought that into the discussion. Can you explain what brought that on?

I assumed you must believe in once-saved-always-saved, because you seemed to have difficulty accepting that I was truly a Christian in the past.

 

[GenemZ]

I assumed you must believe in once-saved-always-saved, because you seemed to have difficulty accepting that I was truly a Christian in the past.

Once saved always saved says just the opposite... That you can think the way you do right now and still be saved. But, one had to be saved in the first place.

You sound more like it was a family conformity issue, more than actual faith in Jesus dying for your sins. I can understand believing in Jesus, but later hating churches in general ... But? How can you once believe? And, now believe Jesus was not real? Did you believe he was real the first time? Why?

Almost everyone is insecure about their sexuality in college with only rare exceptions. That is why colleges have become breeding grounds for liberal agendas.

 

[cloudyday2]

Once saved always saved says just the opposite... That you can think the way you do right now and still be saved. But, one had to be saved in the first place.

I think it is a corollary. If you claim that a saved person can never become unsaved, then it follows that a currently unsaved person could never have been previously saved. Unless I'm making a mistake somewhere in the logic (which isn't unheard of for me LOL).

 

[bhsmte]

My point was.... If you truly believed? You can not say you no longer believe. That's the point of my reasoning with you. You can not "unbelieve" something that is, and was believed. If you can "unbelieve?" Then there was nothing to believe to begin with. How can you stop believing what you know is real?

Absorbing new information and admitting one is wrong about a previous belief, is a sign of strength, not weakness.

I know for some Christians, they can't even entertain the slightest chance, they could be wrong about their belief. To me, that is a sign, there is some deep insecurity about said belief.

 

[GenemZ]

I think it is a corollary. If you claim that a saved person can never become unsaved, then it follows that a currently unsaved person could never have been previously saved. Unless I'm making a mistake somewhere in the logic (which isn't unheard of for me LOL).

Actually I am trying to keep this as simple as possible...

If once saved? And that someone enters into a mental attitude of habitual carnality?

Since that person is continuously grieving and quenching the Spirit? He has no way (no power) to know he is saved. He will act and behave like an unbeliever. (unbelievers can be very moral)

Some people who are saved .. And have been rejecting and suppressing God's grace for too long? That person can not be discerned from the unbeliever. He will act just like the unbeliever that he would have been if never saved.

These ones will have dropped jaws when they find themselves in heaven.

 

[High Fidelity]

I would be more interested in as to "why" you ended up feeling that way. Family influence?

Ended up what way, atheist?

I was raised by irreligious parents, came to faith in my darkest hour and when I'd recovered I couldn't pretend there weren't glaring problems with the whole house of cards that isn't just Christianity, but faith in general.

Beyond that, I won't go in to specifics because I don't feel like getting banned.

 

[High Fidelity]

What do you think about people like myself where the faith just seemed to die bit by bit and it seems impossible to remember why specifically? I ask myself if I made a mistake somewhere in my reasoning, but I can't remember the details of my reasoning. Mostly I just read some books about the history of Judaism and Christianity and I discussed religion on forums like this. I look at intelligent Christians who have read the same books and participated in similar discussion on CF, and I wonder why they didn't reach the same conclusion as me.

I don't really hold an opinion on your position.

For some people I imagine it is a gradual thing over time. For me it wasn't exactly an on/off switch, but the decline didn't take too long before it reached critical mass and I could no longer fool myself and hopes and dreams of unverifiable greatness with as much proof on offer as any other religion.

 

[cloudyday2]

...I believe in St. Nicholas; and I believe he lives. St. Nick Lives! (...that needs to be put on a T-shirt).

What I was told about St. Nicholas wasn't very flattering. It sounded like he needed some anger management classes. Santa Claus is a jolly old elf with a belly like a bowl of jelly. St. Nicholas apparently thought that the best way to win a theological argument was to punch the other guy in the nose. LOL I prefer Santa Claus.

 

[GenemZ]

I know for some Christians, they can't even entertain the slightest chance, they could be wrong about their belief. To me, that is a sign, there is some deep insecurity about said belief.

Some are very insecure. Not all.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What I was told about St. Nicholas wasn't very flattering. It sounded like he needed some anger management classes. Santa Claus is a jolly old elf with a belly like a bowl of jelly. St. Nicholas apparently thought that the best way to win a theological argument was to punch the other guy in the nose. LOL I prefer Santa Claus.

It could be, but as you know, when someone shares a point of view with me, or shares some supposed data they received from someone else............................I want names, dates, times, and citations, preferably from academic sources. Pronto. Or I just ignore whatever junk falls from the mouths of those who express their Opinions, since opinions are a dime a dozen and essentially just another form of flatulence. At least, that's what the opinions and the hearsay from others are in my book.

 

[cloudyday2]

It could be, but as you know, when someone shares a point of view with me, or shares some supposed data they received from someone else............................I want names, dates, times, and citations, preferably from academic sources. Pronto. Or I just ignore whatever junk falls from the mouths of those who express their Opinions, since opinions are a dime a dozen and essentially just another form of flatulence. At least, that's what the opinions and hearsay from others are in my book.

Here is the link proving that St. Nicholas was in need of anger management classes:

As Arius vigorously continued, Nicholas became more and more agitated. Finally, he could no longer bear what he believed was essential being attacked. The outraged Nicholas got up, crossed the room, and slapped Arius across the face! The bishops were shocked. It was unbelievable that a bishop would lose control and be so hotheaded in such a solemn assembly.

St. Nicholas Center ::: Bishop Nicholas Loses His Cool

Here is the link proving that Santa Claus has a belly like a bowl full of jelly:

He had a broad face and a little round belly
That shook when he laughed, like a bowl full of jelly.

A Visit from St. Nicholas by Clement Clarke Moore