Should a G.P or nurse mention Jesus when dealing with a patient?

[non-religious]

[Catherineanne]I would not like it. Doctors and nurses are professional health care workers, not priests. The only person I want talking to me about God in such a situation is my priest or an Anglican chaplain.

I'm not discussing personal issues or having some form of confession with the patients I speak to. As a nurse (previously and still on occasion) I listen to and respond to patients needs and concerns. Sometimes this requires having a conversation that embodies a whole spectrum of issues. Faith being just one of them. Bear in mind, I have only a couple of minutes to converse with the patients..

If a professional is unable to maintain professional boundaries, then they shouldn't be practicing.

I do and I agree

If a nurse sees a Bible beside my bed, I don't want her to say, 'Oh a Bible, how lovely' with the ulterior motive of talking to me about Jesus. My faith is quite frankly not her concern or her business.

I don't have any ulterior motive nor do I "look" for any opportunity to share my faith. If a patient shares, I respond, but with care and caution. I tend to take people as I see them, I have been nursing long enough to gauge patients demeanour. As I previously mentioned I have been greatly encouraged by patients sharing their trust in God when faced with such overwhelmingly difficult circumstances....

 

[non-religious]

[non-religious] Sometime I would see a Bible on their side table and it would open a door to discuss their faith.

Just to add, in those instances where I have had conversations with patients it hasn't actually been the Bible, but more than likely a book by a particular Christian author that I have read. It is in those situations that I may make a comment and start a very brief discussion...

 

[Genersis]

Hmmm.
If i was told that perhaps i was unwell because i don't believe in their god, Then yes, that would [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off a little bit. Don't think i'd complain or want them to lose their job. But i feel it is inappropriate.
If the doctor said it was their duty to tell his patients such, and does so frequently. Then i do think he should receive a warning, and, eventually the boot if he keeps doing it.

Sometimes the last thing you want to hear when talking to a medical professional(especially if the affliction is of a sensitive matter.) is "Maybe you should worship my God?"
It kinda suggests that you're dying/afflicted because you don't worship his deity.
Or if you are religious to start with, that your religion isn't working.

Well that's how i feel about the whole thing.

 

[non-religious]

[Genersis]Hmmm.
If i was told that perhaps i was unwell because i don't believe in their god, Then yes, that would [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off a little bit. Don't think i'd complain or want them to lose their job. But i feel it is inappropriate.

This has nothing to do with my specific question. I'm not talking about how faith can/cannot impact upon illness. That's an entirely different debate..

If the doctor said it was their duty to tell his patients such, and does so frequently.

Not sure any doctor has actually stated that it is their duty to share their faith with a patient. It seems more likely that said doctor made a single error of judgement and the patient, well within their rights, made a complaint..

Sometimes the last thing you want to hear when talking to a medical professional(especially if the affliction is of a sensitive matter.) is "Maybe you should worship my God?"
It kinda suggests that you're dying/afflicted because you don't worship his deity.
Or if you are religious to start with, that your religion isn't working.

Well that's how i feel about the whole thing.

Again, not so sure this is what happened or happens. This would suggest that are some Christian fundamentalist consultants looking for every opportunity to preach to their sick patients. Doesn't happen....

 

[Catherineanne]

I'm not discussing personal issues or having some form of confession with the patients I speak to. As a nurse (previously and still on occasion) I listen to and respond to patients needs and concerns. Sometimes this requires having a conversation that embodies a whole spectrum of issues. Faith being just one of them. Bear in mind, I have only a couple of minutes to converse with the patients..

I do and I agree

I don't have any ulterior motive nor do I "look" for any opportunity to share my faith. If a patient shares, I respond, but with care and caution. I tend to take people as I see them, I have been nursing long enough to gauge patients demeanour. As I previously mentioned I have been greatly encouraged by patients sharing their trust in God when faced with such overwhelmingly difficult circumstances....

You say you maintain professional boundaries, but none of what you describe has to do with maintaining boundaries.

Nurses have no right to discuss their faith, their favourite Christian book, or even their favourite TV programme with a patient. The patient and his or her needs have to be the focus and the priority, at all times. Nurses are there to provide a medical service, not to invade their patient's interpersonal space without a medical reason to do so. And that space includes issues of faith.

A patient can talk to you about God, and you can listen, but not comment in return about your experiences. In my view any nurse is completely out of line if they start to talk about their faith in response to a patient doing so. The best response is probably to say, I understand what you mean but this is outside my remit, so can I ask the Chaplain to come to see you?

This may sound tough, but I have been on the receiving end over and over of professionals who obscure or cross boundaries for an agenda that has nothing to do with their profession. Therefore I am very aware of when it happens. It is always inappropriate. When a professional crosses a line, because of the power imbalance it is emotionally equivalent to incest. It is just that serious.

Nurses have to do with nursing, nothing more. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is true. Chaplains and priests can offer spiritual advice or chat about Christian books, nurses simply cannot. And if they do, in my view they are seriously crossing a line, and whether they do so with care or with gay abandon, they are still crossing a line.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hmmm.
If i was told that perhaps i was unwell because i don't believe in their god, Then yes, that would [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off a little bit. Don't think i'd complain or want them to lose their job. But i feel it is inappropriate.
If the doctor said it was their duty to tell his patients such, and does so frequently. Then i do think he should receive a warning, and, eventually the boot if he keeps doing it.

Sometimes the last thing you want to hear when talking to a medical professional(especially if the affliction is of a sensitive matter.) is "Maybe you should worship my God?"
It kinda suggests that you're dying/afflicted because you don't worship his deity.
Or if you are religious to start with, that your religion isn't working.

Well that's how i feel about the whole thing.

I agree. Doctors have no business whatever talking about God to their patients.

 

[Catherineanne]

Just to add, in those instances where I have had conversations with patients it hasn't actually been the Bible, but more than likely a book by a particular Christian author that I have read. It is in those situations that I may make a comment and start a very brief discussion...

All of which in my view is totally inappropriate. If you want to talk about Christian books, then volunteer in a Christian bookshop, or talk in a Bible study.

Being a nurse does not give you the right to indulge in such totally unnecessary conversations. Patients in hospital and their families are highly vulnerable, and it is completely out of order to discuss issues relating to your personal life with them. And that includes your faith and your personal choice of Christian book.

 

[vignette]

I would absolutely HATE it, and I know that it would do me great emotional damage to have this happen. There are such things as boundaries, and doctors and nurses should NOT cross boundaries. How would a doctor or a nurse know of a patient's religious and spiritual history, and what might harm them? They do not know, and therefore should stay well clear. If a patient wishes to talk about faith then the appropriate person is, as has been said, someone of their own choosing, like maybe the Chaplain (although even a Chaplain has to maintain boundaries too) or the person's own priest/minster or whatever. I feel very strongly on this issue because I know in my own case, if this happened it would devastate me, and harm me in such a vulnerable position where you cannot get away at all. I would feel trapped. I would then begin to panic. So, it is a no no.

 

[non-religious]

I can only speak from my personal experience. I have never in approx ten years of nursing, ever, had a situation where my conversation, all be it brief, has crossed any boundary or negatively impacted upon patients I have cared for. As a nurse it is hard enough finding the time to converse with patients, but when a patient has happily engaged in a conversation with me about their day, their brother, their job or their faith, I have listened and responded with the up most respect and dignity. I'm not there to preach or convert anyone (not sure why I am even having to justify that considering the posts I have displayed thus far) and I'm extremely happy with both my conduct and professionalism (thank you very much!!!). As are the patients, fellow nurses and everyone I come into contact with. I couldn't care less if you (Catherineanne) have a hard time both understanding and appreciating that, but it is what it is.

This is why I still occasionally nurse, even though i have a successful career in property. I am one of the few nurses who takes the time to communicate with their patients and not treat them as some "thing" to just dispense medication to or clean. Having said that, I appreciate your input, but am sorry you feel the way you do

 

[welshman]

Quality post.

God-forbid that we as Christians should share our faith (no matter how seeker-sensitive that approach may or may-not be) to those that are lost

I can only speak from my personal experience. I have never in approx ten years of nursing, ever, had a situation where my conversation, all be it brief, has crossed any boundary or negatively impacted upon patients I have cared for. As a nurse it is hard enough finding the time to converse with patients, but when a patient has happily engaged in a conversation with me about their day, their brother, their job or their faith, I have listened and responded with the up most respect and dignity. I'm not there to preach or convert anyone (not sure why I am even having to justify that considering the posts I have displayed thus far) and I'm extremely happy with both my conduct and professionalism (thank you very much!!!). As are the patients, fellow nurses and everyone I come into contact with. I couldn't care less if you (Catherineanne) have a hard time both understanding and appreciating that, but it is what it is.

This is why I still occasionally nurse, even though i have a successful career in property. I am one of the few nurses who takes the time to communicate with their patients and not treat them as some "thing" to just dispense medication to or clean. Having said that, I appreciate your input, but am sorry you feel the way you do

 

[Celtic D]

I would absolutely HATE it, and I know that it would do me great emotional damage to have this happen. There are such things as boundaries, and doctors and nurses should NOT cross boundaries. How would a doctor or a nurse know of a patient's religious and spiritual history, and what might harm them? They do not know, and therefore should stay well clear. If a patient wishes to talk about faith then the appropriate person is, as has been said, someone of their own choosing, like maybe the Chaplain (although even a Chaplain has to maintain boundaries too) or the person's own priest/minster or whatever. I feel very strongly on this issue because I know in my own case, if this happened it would devastate me, and harm me in such a vulnerable position where you cannot get away at all. I would feel trapped. I would then begin to panic. So, it is a no no.

All other things aside, as a Christian, as per your icon, why would you feel threatened by another Christian wanting to discuss things with you and perhaps offering to pray for you? I'm not saying they should jump in blind, but if you (the patient) indicate you have Christian faith, what is the issue - should you not be happy that someone is concerned enough to want to pray for you?

 

[Celtic D]

I can only speak from my personal experience. I have never in approx ten years of nursing, ever, had a situation where my conversation, all be it brief, has crossed any boundary or negatively impacted upon patients I have cared for. As a nurse it is hard enough finding the time to converse with patients, but when a patient has happily engaged in a conversation with me about their day, their brother, their job or their faith, I have listened and responded with the up most respect and dignity. I'm not there to preach or convert anyone (not sure why I am even having to justify that considering the posts I have displayed thus far) and I'm extremely happy with both my conduct and professionalism (thank you very much!!!). As are the patients, fellow nurses and everyone I come into contact with. I couldn't care less if you (Catherineanne) have a hard time both understanding and appreciating that, but it is what it is.

This is why I still occasionally nurse, even though i have a successful career in property. I am one of the few nurses who takes the time to communicate with their patients and not treat them as some "thing" to just dispense medication to or clean. Having said that, I appreciate your input, but am sorry you feel the way you do

Fortunately I have never had a stay in hospital, but if I did I would be more than happy for you to be my nurse

If I start a conversation with "you" it is because I am interested in what you have to say - as you say nursing and other caring professions are not just about cold clinical things, they are about the whole being, and that in some cases may include a person's spirituality if the occassion arises - I'm not for ramming religion down someone's throat, but if the patient raises it first I see no issue if both parties are concenting to the discussion / prayer.

 

[non-religious]

[Celtic D]Fortunately I have never had a stay in hospital, but if I did I would be more than happy for you to be my nurse

If I start a conversation with "you" it is because I am interested in what you have to say - as you say nursing and other caring professions are not just about cold clinical things, they are about the whole being, and that in some cases may include a person's spirituality if the occassion arises - I'm not for ramming religion down someone's throat, but if the patient raises it first I see no issue if both parties are concenting to the discussion / prayer.

Thank-you very much appreciated

 

[non-religious]

[Catherineanne]
Being a nurse does not give you the right to indulge in such totally unnecessary conversations. Patients in hospital and their families are highly vulnerable, and it is completely out of order to discuss issues relating to your personal life with them. And that includes your faith and your personal choice of Christian book.

I was going to ignore this, but I just want to give an example that demonstrates just how wrong this harsh line of thinking is.

A couple of months ago I worked on a ward (as a bank/temp) nurse and while on my rounds met a patient who happened to be reading Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. I introduced myself, asked if everything was ok and went about my business. Later on that night, approx 01:30hrs, I was walking around the ward quietly checking on the patients and noticed this patient in her room still reading. I went in asked her if she was alright and she stated she couldn't sleep and was reading her book. I'd noticed it was a book I had read and said "interesting book." She then engaged in an interesting conversation about her love of all things CS Lewis.

Her next question to me was "are you a believer?" to which I responded "yes." Long story short, she had told me about other Christian authors she enjoyed reading and explained how her faith has been real source of comfort for her through her treatment. As I am leaving her room I remarked "I'll be sure to mention you in my prayers."

I come into work on the same ward the next night and one of the senior members of staff pulls me aside after the hand over and tells me that this particular lady was "very impressed" with the fact that I had spent time talking to her and just generally being very attentive. True story.......

I have no qualms about the conversation I had, I have zero regrets about telling this lady that I would mention her in my prayers and I too was greatly encouraged by her faith and strength. I would be interested in knowing exactly what part of that story is in any way inappropriate or demonstrates poor conduct? (apologies for the length of this post, just wanted to point out that being a nurse isn't a black and white as some people think )

 

[Catherineanne]

I was going to ignore this, but I just want to give an example that demonstrates just how wrong this harsh line of thinking is.

A couple of months ago I worked on a ward (as a bank/temp) nurse and while on my rounds met a patient who happened to be reading Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. I introduced myself, asked if everything was ok and went about my business. Later on that night, approx 01:30hrs, I was walking around the ward quietly checking on the patients and noticed this patient in her room still reading. I went in asked her if she was alright and she stated she couldn't sleep and was reading her book. I'd noticed it was a book I had read and said "interesting book." She then engaged in an interesting conversation about her love of all things CS Lewis.

Her next question to me was "are you a believer?" to which I responded "yes." Long story short, she had told me about other Christian authors she enjoyed reading and explained how her faith has been real source of comfort for her through her treatment. As I am leaving her room I remarked "I'll be sure to mention you in my prayers."

I come into work on the same ward the next night and one of the senior members of staff pulls me aside after the hand over and tells me that this particular lady was "very impressed" with the fact that I had spent time talking to her and just generally being very attentive. True story.......

I have no qualms about the conversation I had, I have zero regrets about telling this lady that I would mention her in my prayers and I too was greatly encouraged by her faith and strength. I would be interested in knowing exactly what part of that story is in any way inappropriate or demonstrates poor conduct? (apologies for the length of this post, just wanted to point out that being a nurse isn't a black and white as some people think )

Indeed not. But being professional certainly is.

If you were just listening to that lady, whatever she was discussing, then that is not a problem. At the point you said you would mention her in your prayers, imo that then becomes the problem. If she specifically asked you to mention her in your prayers, and you said you would, that would possibly be ok, but even then is in danger of crossing a line, imo.

And thanks for calling me harsh for attempting to reinforce professional boundaries. That really says it all. Christians do not have the right to bring their faith into any situation where they happen to feel it might be nice to do so. In the case of the medical service, in my view this constitues a breach of the duty of care, and if it ever happened in relation to my family I would take a very dim view of it.

And I am a Christian. I just happen to be a Christian who understands what professionalism is. Professionals must leave their personal likes and dislikes, beliefs and unbeliefs at the door when they go to work. They must then treat every person they meet exactly the same, regardless of what they believe.

That means that if another lady is sitting reading an Islamic commentary, then you go and listen to her, with the same acceptance of whatever she says. And if another is reading a satanic how to guide, you do exactly the same, with the same acceptance, and without comment from you.

If any nurse can't do this, then in my view frankly she shouldn't be a nurse. Care must always be focussed on the need of the patient for appropriate care, not the need of the nurse to be Florence Nightingale.

 

[theFijian]

Nurses have no right to discuss their faith, their favourite Christian book, or even their favourite TV programme with a patient. The patient and his or her needs have to be the focus and the priority, at all times. Nurses are there to provide a medical service, not to invade their patient's interpersonal space without a medical reason to do so. And that space includes issues of faith.

Wasn't there once a thing called 'bedside manner'?

This may sound tough, but I have been on the receiving end over and over of professionals who obscure or cross boundaries for an agenda that has nothing to do with their profession. Therefore I am very aware of when it happens. It is always inappropriate. When a professional crosses a line, because of the power imbalance it is emotionally equivalent to incest. It is just that serious.

Really, it just isn't as serious as that. To overstate your case in such a melodramatic was actually detracts from, rather than adds support to your argument.

 

[Catherineanne]

Fortunately I have never had a stay in hospital, but if I did I would be more than happy for you to be my nurse

If I start a conversation with "you" it is because I am interested in what you have to say - as you say nursing and other caring professions are not just about cold clinical things, they are about the whole being, and that in some cases may include a person's spirituality if the occassion arises - I'm not for ramming religion down someone's throat, but if the patient raises it first I see no issue if both parties are concenting to the discussion / prayer.

Prima facie this looks fine, but actually it is not fine. The power balance is not that of two adults. Would you also see no issue if both parties consented to having sex? Normally, two adults can do that, but in a situation where one is professional, and in a professional setting, and the other is not, then the normal rules about 'two consenting adults' do not apply. What is normal elsewhere is professional misconduct in a professional setting.

The reason for this is that because of the changed power dynamic. The onus is on the professional to maintain professional boundaries, regardless of the behaviour of the other person. No matter what the provocation, a professional must always remember why they are there, and not take advantage of the vulnerability of the person in their care. The professional has the caring or parental role, the patient has the cared for or dependent role. Therefore, the duty is on the stronger of the two.

Therefore, a patient may talk about his or her faith. A professional may listen, but may NOT talk about his or her faith in return. This is outside their professional role, and therefore constitutes an abuse of that role.

Doctors and nurses do not have permission to discuss their own personal lives with their patients, and this includes their faith.

 

[non-religious]

[Catherineanne]

If you were just listening to that lady, whatever she was discussing, then that is not a problem. At the point you said you would mention her in your prayers, imo that then becomes the problem. If she specifically asked you to mention her in your prayers, and you said you would, that would possibly be ok, but even then is in danger of crossing a line, imo.

In my opinion you're wrong. It is so easy to be an armchair critic. If you've been a nurse and experienced having conversations with people from all walks of life and you are able to stop a conversation dead in its tracks and walk away, fine. As for me, absolutely at peace with my professionalism and the way I interact with my patients. You don't know me so I don't expect you to believe it, nor do I care...

And thanks for calling me harsh for attempting to reinforce professional boundaries. That really says it all.

Saying it how I see it, if the cap fits... I could use a ton of other cliches...

Christians do not have the right to bring their faith into any situation where they happen to feel it might be nice to do so. In the case of the medical service, in my view this constitues a breach of the duty of care, and if it ever happened in relation to my family I would take a very dim view of it.

Good for you... I'm sure those in question would respect your opinion...

And I am a Christian. I just happen to be a Christian who understands what professionalism is. Professionals must leave their personal likes and dislikes, beliefs and unbeliefs at the door when they go to work. They must then treat every person they meet exactly the same, regardless of what they believe.

I refer you to my previous posts..

That means that if another lady is sitting reading an Islamic commentary, then you go and listen to her, with the same acceptance of whatever she says. And if another is reading a satanic how to guide, you do exactly the same, with the same acceptance, and without comment from you.

As a professional I take each and every situation I encounter with, as I have previously mentioned, the upmost respect and dignity. I have had encounters with patients who have been openly racist, extremely condescending and difficult, dismissive etc.... I have treated every one of them with, yep you guessed it, the upmost dignity and respect. If I come across a patient reading the Koran, my knowledge of which is limited, I will use sound judgement and having evaluated the situation will act accordingly. That's what nurses do. If a patient is reading the Daily Mail, I will do the same. I hope that helps clarify my position..

If any nurse can't do this, then in my view frankly she shouldn't be a nurse. Care must always be focussed on the need of the patient for appropriate care, not the need of the nurse to be Florence Nightingale

Thanks for you're opinion, I mean that seriously, but I vehemently disgree with you

 

[theFijian]

And I am a Christian. I just happen to be a Christian who understands what professionalism is. Professionals must leave their personal likes and dislikes, beliefs and unbeliefs at the door when they go to work.

No really, they mustn't! This is the fundamental hypocrisy at the heart of secularism. Secularists believe that Christians (and people of other religions) when they step out of their private life into public life (through work or however they interact with wider society) then they must leave behind all their deeply held convictions, views and beliefs at their front door as though somehow at some deep subconcious level they are able to behave in ways which bypass those convictions, views and beliefs which they hold. Secularists however don't have to try and engage in such cognitive dissonance they get to force their deeply held convictions, beliefs and views on everyone else! This is the bias at the heart of secularism and you unfortunately have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

They must then treat every person they meet exactly the same, regardless of what they believe.

That means that if another lady is sitting reading an Islamic commentary, then you go and listen to her, with the same acceptance of whatever she says. And if another is reading a satanic how to guide, you do exactly the same, with the same acceptance, and without comment from you.

Chritians, leave you personality at the door!

 

[non-religious]

[Catherineanne]
Therefore, a patient may talk about his or her faith. A professional may listen, but may NOT talk about his or her faith in return. This is outside their professional role, and therefore constitutes an abuse of that role.

Doctors and nurses do not have permission to discuss their own personal lives with their patients, and this includes their faith.

I have been a patient on numerous occasions due to Crohns Disease. If on the job I ever come across a patient with Crohns I can immediately empathise with their situation. I can and have used my experience of crohns to help offer advice and encouragement. Advice that has been greatly appreciated and welcomed. According to your flawed logic, I wouldn't even be allowed to do that because it involves my personal life. You're line of thinking doesn't surprise me, it doesn't offend me and certainly, categorically doesn't deter me from doing the job I do.

I just think it is sad that you want nurses to be these unemotional robots that walk around the wards having a strict list of conversation does and don'ts. We have a code of conduct to which I live by when at work. I'm glad my human side is as important as my clinical knowledge. Never had a complaint in all my years nursing, have been praised countless times and wards constantly ask for me to come back. I think that speaks volumes and proves that you're good intentions are not as clear cut as you mistakingly believe.....