Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

[Bible Highlighter]

I have given this testimony before in other threads.

'Way back in the early 70s, when we were still in Vietnam, I was a young troop in the Air Force. This was back when the military "worked hard and played harder." There was lots of smoking and drinking going on, much of it encouraged and even enabled by senior leadership. After a hard period of military activity, commanders would buy kegs of beer and throw parties for the troops.

I never smoked, but I'd drink beer. During this time, the Holy Spirit told me, "Go...but do not drink."

Something I understood was that this was instruction for me, not general instruction for the Body of Christ, particularly in the fact that my instruction was not to eschew the parties completely, but rather go to the parties...but don't drink.

So I went, but didn't drink. I'd just sip on a Dr Pepper or two, have conversations, and eventually leave before everyone got too crazy.

I was quite successful in my career at that unit. I got a couple of promotions, did excellent work and got plenty of accolades and awards. I still regard that period as the best in my career. When the time came for me to leave for a new assignment, there was a farewell party.

At that party, I was approached by a younger airman. He told me that he was a Christian, and a non-smoker and non-drinker. But he had felt himself under enormous pressure to join in with the activities of the others to "fit in and be one of the guys."

He had been watching me for some time, however, and he saw that I had been successful and well-respected even though I didn't drink or smoke. He thanked me for encouraging him to stick to his beliefs.

I then understood why my instruction had been to "Go...but do not drink."

So if you feel an instruction upon you to forbear using VPNs, then don't use VPNs. But also don't try to enlarge your instruction into a general ruling of sin for the entire Body of Christ. You don't need an opinion poll. You don't need to have anyone else agree with you.

If you had started a thread saying that you were under a particular conviction, I'm sure everyone would have at some point agreed that you needed to follow the dictates of your conviction.

But at this point, you're just arguing over the "disputable matters" that Paul taught about in Romans 14.

While we cannot help but to work with unbelievers, when it comes to fellowship: We are told not to have fellowship with unbelievers. So I do not believe the "go.... but don't drink" was something I would consider to be in line with Scripture. You were fortunate not to be influenced by their bad ways. Other such men of God are not always so fortunate and they can fall prey to the temptations of the enemy. Romans 14 does not apply here. It is dealing with matters of the Old Law involving the Saturday Sabbath and unclean animals (Which are ceremonial laws from the Law of Moses that do not apply anymore). There are no exceptions to the rule of lying because Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If there was an exception to lyng, then Revelation 21:8 would have mentioned how there was another group of liars who were an exception facing the second death. Granted, maybe God does not consider a VPN as lying. It is possible. But I need to be convinced of that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Government agencies don't use IP addresses to validate locations unless you're doing something they need to squash.

They may be looking for another person via through somebody else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It has already been explained in detail. I suggest you reread your thread.

Post numbers would be great. But even so, why can't you just explain it to me in simple terms?

 

[Hammster]

Just an FYI. If you use your phone for internet use, it usually comes back with an IP for your phone company. So in my case, it comes back to Chicago, and I’m nowhere near Chicago. There are also other CF account on that IP that isn’t mine. Using the OP’s theology, we are all lying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He doesn't care if you use a VPN to secure your personal information.

Did you get down on your knees and ask Him last night as I suggested?

I did, as I will not ask someone to do something I myself am not willing to do. The impression that I got was that using a VPN is not a sin based on intent. If you are using it in order to truly deceive someone for nefarious reasons, then that is a sin. If you are using it to secure personal or company information, then it is not a sin.

It is all in the intent.

If a company asked their employee to fornicate so as to protect lives, then it would be okay? Governments have spy agencies. I am sure over the course of history, their government had asked them to do something that would be sinful like this and they justified it as a part of protecting lives so as to obtain precious data for their country, etc. But is it okay in God's eyes? No.

 

[Isilwen]

Post numbers would be great. But even so, why can't you just explain it to me in simple terms?

Because it has already been done a few times by people more eloquent than I.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because it has already been done a few times by people more eloquent than I.

I have been replying to what most everyone has said so far. So I don't see how they are explaining something that I missed.

 

[Isilwen]

If a company asked their employee to fornicate so as to protect lives, then it would be okay? Governments have spy agencies. I am sure over the course of history, their government had asked them to do something that would be sinful like this and they justified it as a part of protecting lives so as to obtain precious data for their country, etc. But is it okay in God's eyes? No.

As I said, no explanation will be good enough for you.

I suggest you close the thread, you have already done answered your own query.

 

[John Robie]

It still does not excuse the lie.

How is it a lie? You said that they knew I used a VPN, which means that they know how they work. I’m truthful when filling out forms for the government, so they know where I live. It’s only a lie if I am trying to deceive. Which I’m not.

Maybe you missed this one.

 

[Tom 1]

It bothers me because it is a lie and Revelation 21:8 has some serious warnings about lying. You need to convince me that a VPN is not lying. Yet, I have told you that the VPN feature in the Anti virus program was asking me to lie about my IP location. How do you not see this as lying? Can you given a real world example?

It's not something that would concern me. I don't use a VPN as the browser I use (Chrome) and links to Onedrive etc wouldn't be made any more private, with syncing etc, which a VPN has zero effect on in terms of security. It's just 'stuff'. If I lie to another person, that has some effect on both me and them, which varies a lot. If I tell my niece she can write to Santa, that isn't true, but I wouldn't worry about saying that. If I only ever said exactly and precisely what I mean then I would either speak very rarely or confuse and upset people on a regular basis. Few things are black and white, but without getting too far off topic lying to someone and using some software to protect your privacy don't match up. I find the idea that God would be interested in such things rather strange, he isn't hanging around with a notebook noting down such trivial issues, I'm sure of that, if you aren't then obviously your whole way of thinking about it is different to mine so it would be a difficult business to convince you otherwise, if I was inclined to try it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for those who would say that the internet sometimes automatically changes our location of where we are at:

I already mentioned this point before.

This is how the technology works and it is not lying because that is where the application of the server is at. A VPN is a person actively choosing a fake location that is not true to the real location of where their server is really at. They are choosing to lie. So these two things are unrelated. One is taking part in a technology of how it naturally works beyond our control, and the other is actively choosing to make false claims about something that is within our control.

 

[John Robie]

As for those who would say that the internet sometimes automatically changes our location of where we are at:

I already mentioned this point before.

This is how the technology works and it is not lying because that is where the application of the server is at. A VPN is a person actively choosing a fake location that is not true to the real location of where their server is really at. They are choosing to lie. So these two things are unrelated. One is taking part in a technology of how it naturally works beyond our control, and the other is actively choosing to make false claims about something that is within our control.

So then it’s not a sin to use a VPN. It’s a sin to lie. Which we all agree on.

 

[Hammster]

Also, I’ve never had VPN apps ask me to provide a false location.

 

[RDKirk]

While we cannot help but to work with unbelievers, when it comes to fellowship: We are told not to have fellowship with unbelievers. So I do not believe the "go.... but don't drink" was something I would consider to be in line with Scripture. You were fortunate not to be influenced by their bad ways. Other such men of God are not always so fortunate and they can fall prey to the temptations of the enemy.

Well, the Holy Spirit disagrees with you on that particular event, and the fact that my witness encouraged another Christian is proof that you are wrong about that particular event. I was not "fortunate." I was sent into an area for His purpose, and for His purpose I was under His wing.

Romans 14 does not apply here. It is dealing with matters of the Old Law involving the Saturday Sabbath and unclean animals (Which are ceremonial laws from the Law of Moses that do not apply anymore). There are no exceptions to the rule of lying because Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If there was an exception to lyng, then Revelation 21:8 would have mentioned how there was another group of liars who were an exception facing the second death.

Of course there is an exception to lying when I've already given you examples of persons in scripture who were lauded for deceiving the enemy in critical moments for the benefit of God's people under attack by evil forces.

And there are Christians communicating with Christians through VPNs even now in countries where Christianity is punishable by death.

Granted, maybe God does not consider a VPN as lying. It is possible. But I need to be convinced of that.

No, you don't. If you feel under conviction, then go with that feeling. Nobody is trying to force you to do something you feel convicted not to do.

Why are you even asking, except that you're trying to get other people under your own conviction. Your conviction is your conviction. You're being like a "weaker brother" trying to bring stronger brothers under the burden of their own weakness.

 

[Jesse Johnson]

I personally lean towards the side that says that it is like lying.

There is definitely a respectable case for that side. No question about it.

But I use a VPN not with the intent to misrepresent where I am, but to say it is no one's business where I am. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am not where my IP reports me as being. But Americans have, by way of constitutional law, a right to privacy. This right has been minimalized into near oblivion by the great financial and political institutions of the world via there tentacles which permeate cyberspace. I say this not to suggest the classical conspiracy theory motif, but merely as an acknowledgment of what is reported by credible news sources every day. They want as much of our money and as much of our political support and cooperation as they can possibly acquire.

The rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are substantially compromised by access to the virtual world of the Internet. Privacy is often necessary to exercise true religious liberty. And virtual privacy is the function of a virtual private network, by its very definition.

 

[literaryjoe]

Thank you. I accept your technical advice. I am glad you explained this. I thought it was something I could do. I am merely interested in making myself invisible instead of having to lie about my location with a VPN. There is Tor (Which is a popular black cloud), but I would not encourage people to go that route because it is a haven for criminal activity and it can lead a believer to seeing some pretty evil content that they should never run into.

Well, the thing is... Tor is sort of a VPN on steroids, and it does the same thing a VPN does: it shows your traffic as coming from an IP address that isn't yours. So it doesn't sound like that would be an option for you.

You should check out Tools from EFF's Tech Team, and add Privacy Badger, HTTPS Everywhere, and Panopticlick to your browser. Also, if you're not already, start using a Password Manager like Bitwarden or LastPass.

If you have a firewall enabled on your web gateway, and add those free tools I just mentioned to your browser, you'll be doing better than 85% of people on the Web (not a scientific estimate, just a wild guess off the top of my head).

 

[Jesse Johnson]

You have gone from this:

I personally lean towards the side that says that it is like lying.

to this:

A VPN is a person actively choosing a fake location that is not true to the real location of where their server is really at. They are choosing to lie.

I find it hard to believe that you've undergone this transition merely throughout the course of this thread. This seems just a tad deceptive. Kind of like your obiter dictum regarding the ethicality of using a VPN.

 

[Glorytothefather2245]

Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

VPN is a virtual Private Network that attempts to tell others that you are in another location other than the one that you are at.

If you are still unsure of what a VPN is, here is a trailer promotion for a VPN company (Promoted on a Christian website).

Basically if you live in Denver Colorado, and you wanted to use a VPN (while you surf the internet), you would choose another city to show other people online that you actually were surfing the internet from a different city or location like say: Tampa, Florida.

Depends on what your doing, but if this is the logic we use then using a username on a forum different from your real name is lying cause I don't know who you are!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So a VPN is what it is. It was not created to lie and it just functions in the way that it functions. Like almost anything it can be used to lie, but that doesn't mean that the technology itself is bad. Food can be used for gluttony, but that doesn't mean we should avoid food. Sex can used for fornication, but that doesn't mean we should avoid marital intimacy, etc., etc.

But Avast Anti Software VPN was asking me to choose a fake location and to lie about my IP address. I am not convinced how you don't see that as lying. If they had an option that just encrypted my location and I was hidden, then I would be fine with that. I would not have to actively lie about my IP address or server location.

Privacy is a good thing, though of course, privacy can also be misused. VPNs were created to tunnel private information across a public network. They can be client to gateway or gateway to gateway. This was a good thing; it saved tons of money, protects copyrighted and patented information, etc. When I work from home, your personal medical information is protected from prying eyes because I'm using a VPN.

I am sure there are spy agencies of foreign governments that have asked to obtain sensitive data and they asked one of their covert operatives to fornicate with a person so as to get this data and protect tons of lives. Surely, a spy could justify that what they are doing is good but yet they are sinning in the process.

And this is just how VPN technology works. Of course, it can be utilized to lie, but that doesn't mean a VPN is lying.

I really wish Avast had a VPN that did not force me to lie about my server location or IP address. Is there a Anti-Virus software that just says that my IP address is encrypted or hidden instead of saying a fake location?

Of course there are, and a lie is a sin. But eating meat offered to idols is not a sin, unless you think it is, and then for you, it is. That's what Paul is saying in Romans 14:23. I've been trying to explain that using a VPN is not a sin (unless you think it is, and then it is for you), but of course, using a VPN to lie cheat or steal, is a sin, but it's not the VPN that's a sin, it's the lying, cheating, and stealing.

Paul is not talking about other kinds of sins like lying. There are no exceptions to lying, murder, etc. in Scripture. Paul is referring to how we can eat anything we want and there is nothing impure in itself. Paul is talking about ceremonial laws of the OT that are no longer in effect anymore in the New Covenant and yet we should not do anything to make our fellow brother to stumble if they think these ceremonial laws still apply.

Look, if I take off my wedding ring so as to appear unmarried, that's a lie, but it doesn't make bare fingers a sin.

Not really. Some Christian believers in India do not wear wedding rings. So my Indian Christian friend at work here in the States does not wear a wedding ring because in his culture, his group of believers feel jewelry is sometimes over obsessive among the women there and it like an idol. There is also nothing in Scripture that says we have to wear wedding rings, either. So no. It is not lying before God because God never put forth a command to wear rings to show that we are married. It's a commandment of men.

Well, that's a whole different topic. So as not to hijack this thread, I'll simply point you to Romans 14:1, where the context of the entire chapter is set/determined: "[Do not] quarrel over opinions." No one in the 1st century considered the Sabbath or unclean food a matter of opinion. No one.

I created a new thread here to show that we are not under the Law of Moses. You can check that out here:

The Law of Moses is no more, but that does not mean the New Covenant is without many commands.

Okay, I can't resist: Paul is discussing disputes over competing calendars (there were four different ones extant at the time he wrote) and over whether certain clean foods (like vegetables, v2) were "common" or not. Matters, not of God's commandments, but of human opinion. When the NT wants to refer to unclean food it uses a different Greek word, akathartos, but as you'll see if you check out Rom 14:14, the word used is koinon, or "common." These are distinct words used to refer to two different categories; as you can see, for example, when they are contrasted in Acts 10:14-15.

Yes, definitely, and peace to you as well.

Nowhere in Scripture is this mentioned. If we were to follow the previous chapters, the context is the Law of Moses and Israel, and there is no mention of anything about what you said here. I know. I just quickly went back to the previous chapters and quickly read through them to double confirm this.

Anyways, we can again agree to disagree in love.

Please be well;
And may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Depends on what your doing, but if this is the logic we use then using a username on a forum different from your real name is lying cause I don't know who you are!

Again, a username is not lying because the username is a real nickname that I have given myself. I am not saying I am actually another real person. If Rick on the forums said he was Donald Trump, and he actually tried to make people believe that fact, when he is not that person, then he would be lying. But if Rick created a username that everybody knows is just a nickname and not their real name, it is not lying. The nickname is real and has to do with who they are. With a VPN you are taking on the identity of the name of a real place to hide your real location.