Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

[Tom 1]

Again, the problem was not that the Pharisees were overly concerned with God's laws but it was because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy

That is what tends to happen - what we focus on is where our minds take us. Some from the Pharisee sect took the route of trying to please God through obsessive legalism, believing, I’m sure, that this was the best thing to do. It is a similar principle to the idea of trying to serve two masters, if a person become obsessive about such things this will form how that person thinks, making the important issues, like love and mercy, less of a priority. What we think about is what directs our behaviour.

 

[Tom 1]

We are to be a light to the world. We are to be different from them. We are to be holy and separate from them. Can you think of anything your government does that may be sinful in the eyes of God? If so, their approval of such activities does not make it okay. So if they see you do something different, and you take a stand for what is good and right, they will subtly take notice of how you are different than others. One does these things out of their love and dedication to Christ because of what He has done for them.

As a general principle, sure. Applied to VPNs, it’s straining out a gnat.

 

[Tom 1]

So laws or legalism as you put it is not the problem.

It is in fact quite a major problem. Turning the laws of God, meant to promote life, community and wellbeing, into dry legalistic dust or reasons not to help your neighbour - as with those who passed the injured man by in the parable so as not to infringe religious observance - is a profoundly serious issue, a kind of mental cancer.

 

[Tom 1]

The burden of proof is on you to show that VPN is not lying. I see it as lying because if you use a VPN to access content in another country that would otherwise be restricted to you, you are pretending to be of that country when you are not (and that is a form of lying).

No you aren’t. If you can find someone who uses a VPN in order to pretend they are from a different country, you can ask them to post their reasons. Generally though people use VPNs as a privacy measure.

Is a VPN used to protect privacy? Yes

Do people use VPNs to pretend they are from a different country? No

 

[Tom 1]

The burden of proof is on you to show that VPN is not lying. I see it as lying because if you use a VPN to access content in another country that would otherwise be restricted to you, you are pretending to be of that country when you are not (and that is a form of lying).

That is not how it works. Some people in China use VPNs in an attempt to bypass firewalls or protect their own ID for a wide range of reasons. A Chinese person doing this is not pretending to be say from the US to access Google. They are using software to access other software on the internet. What you are saying is like some form of digital anthropomorphism, attributing characteristics to the use of internet software extra dimensions that usage doesn’t entail. Few Chinese people would be naive enough to think that they might deceive their govt by doing this.

 

[literaryjoe]

@literaryjoe

Seeing your a techie guy: I am curious as to your thoughts to Waverly Labs (Which is an Opensource software using your own Black Cloud server) or their own recommended one (Panther SPD).

Check out post #107.

For me: An SPD seems like a better solution because it simply makes you invisible to attackers instead of lying about your server location with a VPN.

Umm... I don't know your level of technical sophistication, but this would like boiling the ocean to obtain a cup of water. Are you comfortable with Linux? Do you understand IPTables? Are you accustomed to using the command line instead of a GUI? The difference between TCP and UDP, etc.? Are you interested in spinning up multiple Virtual Machines on your network in order to support this? There's just so many easier ways...

SDP is generally intended for corporations, not typically for consumers.

 

[literaryjoe]

But an IP address (without a VPN) is naturally connecting to that server location. It is not a lie. Your location for your server is truly there. A VPN attempts to lie about the server location. Lying is still lying in my book, my friend. What men do not see, God sees.

So a VPN is what it is. It was not created to lie and it just functions in the way that it functions. Like almost anything it can be used to lie, but that doesn't mean that the technology itself is bad. Food can be used for gluttony, but that doesn't mean we should avoid food. Sex can used for fornication, but that doesn't mean we should avoid marital intimacy, etc., etc.

Privacy is a good thing, though of course, privacy can also be misused. VPNs were created to tunnel private information across a public network. They can be client to gateway or gateway to gateway. This was a good thing; it saved tons of money, protects copyrighted and patented information, etc. When I work from home, your personal medical information is protected from prying eyes because I'm using a VPN.

Right, and that would not be lying because that is how the technology works. A VPN attempts to lie about a server location from the real one that you have.

And this is just how VPN technology works. Of course, it can be utilized to lie, but that doesn't mean a VPN is lying.

There are sins that are not a matter of conscience.
Murder, lying, rape, child abuse, theft, etc. are always wrong.

Of course there are, and a lie is a sin. But eating meat offered to idols is not a sin, unless you think it is, and then for you, it is. That's what Paul is saying in Romans 14:23. I've been trying to explain that using a VPN is not a sin (unless you think it is, and then it is for you), but of course, using a VPN to lie cheat or steal, is a sin, but it's not the VPN that's a sin, it's the lying, cheating, and stealing.

Look, if I take off my wedding ring so as to appear unmarried, that's a lie, but it doesn't make bare fingers a sin.

In context: Romans 14 has to do with how we regard the Sabbath (Romans 14:5-6), and the eating of unclean animals (Romans 14:14-21).
I believe Christians are under the New Covenant, and the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding, and that we can eat unclean animals. But if a brother is offended by our eating unclean animals, we should not do so in front of them and offend them. That is what it is talking about. It is not talking about the topic of exceptions in lying.

Well, that's a whole different topic. So as not to hijack this thread, I'll simply point you to Romans 14:1, where the context of the entire chapter is set/determined: "[Do not] quarrel over opinions." No one in the 1st century considered the Sabbath or unclean food a matter of opinion. No one.

Okay, I can't resist: Paul is discussing disputes over competing calendars (there were four different ones extant at the time he wrote) and over whether certain clean foods (like vegetables, v2) were "common" or not. Matters, not of God's commandments, but of human opinion. When the NT wants to refer to unclean food it uses a different Greek word, akathartos, but as you'll see if you check out Rom 14:14, the word used is koinon, or "common." These are distinct words used to refer to two different categories; as you can see, for example, when they are contrasted in Acts 10:14-15.

Anyways, if you disagree, we can agree to disagree in love.

Peace and blessings to you in the Lord.

Yes, definitely, and peace to you as well.

 

[Zao is life]

Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

Criminal hacking is rife in the Internet, and hacking classes are freely available in the Internet, and hacker groups sharing info with one another are abundant.

Every criminal hacker knows that all he needs to hack into your PC is your IP address. Once in your device, the hacker can steal all the info (personal details) he needs from you in order to steal from you or to steal your identity, and if you have not kept all your Password tucked away in a Password vault, then OUCH!

Default settings in Home Router firewalls and devices are not enough to stop it once a criminal knows your IP address, and the vast majority of people do not know how to set their firewalls to make themselves safer from criminals. You can Google how to set your firewall but to most people the instructions you read are Greek to non-Greeks and goblly-gook to Greeks.

This is why banks not only permit people using VPN's for online banking, but encourage it. Many on-line retail stores do the same.

Giving your IP address to all and sundry (complete strangers) in the Internet is like printing your full home address on business cards, then handing those cards out to perfect strangers on the street in the city.

Criminals know this, and so criminals create websites and using all sorts of methods (click-bait etc) encourage Internet browsers to visit those sites - and the moment you visit ANY Internet site, you are giving the admins of that site your IP.

Banks, on-line retails stores etc have to invest a great amount of resources into keeping their servers safe from hackers, because they know that once a hacker obtains entry into their servers, those hackers have all the IP addresses, credit card info etc stored in those servers.

You are not lying to millions of perfect strangers in the Internet by refusing to give them your address!!

If you come across any website that does not permit you to use a VPN when opening an on-line account with them or to use a VPN when accessing your account, the red flag should pop up loudly.

In the case of CF, I did not have to ask why they do not allow access via VPN - I worked it out myself, because I've seen how people open accounts at other Christian forums, then post porn, or links to porn, or become extremely abusive, posting filthy language and insulting posts, breaking every forum rule in the book. CF has to be able to block not only that account, but also the IP address of the abuser, so as to prevent that user from simply opening another account.

If CF allows the use of a VPN, then they have no way of telling whether it's the same abuser opening a new account using a different IP provided by a VPN.

I worked that out without having to ask why CF does not allow it - but in normal circumstances, I would never provide my IP address to perfect strangers. The trouble is, if you use the same device and router to browse that you are using to log into your CF account, each and every website you are visiting will have your actual IP address.

Do not underestimate the need for VPN's and hiding your IP in the Internet. There are hundreds of thousands of criminal hackers lurking about in the Internet, doing what they do all the time - and the chances are, if you are that trusting, you re going to have your device hacked into and your personal info stolen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The company I recently retired from required us to use a VPN when working from home. Frankly, I don't know what IP address was being reported, but even if I were not using a VPN, it would still report "my" address as being at the location of the ISP server, not the location of my house. Unless you're serving as your own ISP, it's never going to display your true definite location.

Moreover, everyone I communicated through the VPN with knew my location. I never hid it from them. It was frequently even a matter of conversation, particularly since we usually have much better weather down here than in the home office.

I understand that many companies and businesses use a VPN. I can understand in certain circumstances this is okay. An Idaho employee who works remotely can connect into the VPN network of a server of their company in Idaho and yet their job may require them to live or work in another part of the United States. We cannot control what our jobs do, or we would be jobless.

The problem I have is when a VPN is used for private use security by a Christian and they tell the internet world that their server is in another location when in reality that is not where their server is actually at. They choose an Antivirus software program that says the real server is in some other real location (when it is not really there). For example: With a VPN, you can get cheaper airfares by changing your location (Which is dishonest). With a VPN, you can act like you are in another country and access that country's content (that would have been otherwise restricted to you) (Which again is dishonest).

A VPN does more than just hide your location.
It lies about your location.

It allows you to lie about your location and access content from outside the US that would be otherwise restricted to you.

But I have a question for you, Bible Highlighter...why are you lying to us about who you really are? Why aren't you using your real name?

I would encourage you to read through the thread.
I have covered a lot of points made by others here.

Anyways, I have talked on internet forums since 2004. Not once did a person assume that a username was lying and or it was a person's real name.

A "username" on a forum is not lying because it is like a virtual nickname that you give yourself and people understand this. Nicknames can be given to ourselves or others because of a specific reason or purpose. They are usually related to who we are and or what we do. Our parents had to choose a name for us. This is our birth name. On paper applications I used to fill out a section called "Preferred Name" or "Nickname." But if I just started to call you "Sir. Peter H. Brian" for no real rhyme or reason, it would not be true to who you are in any way. It would just be random name labeling with no real thought and intent.

An internet username is not like a VPN because one is merely choosing a nickname that everyone knows is not your real name, and nicknames are usually chosen based on some kind of truth related to that person. A person using a VPN to say that their server location is another city when it is not in that city for private security home use is technically lying because they are saying something that is totally contrary to the truth or reality. When I say I am Bible Highlighter, this is true. It is a nickname I have given myself to identify what I do here. I highlight the Bible for others.

In any event, may God's love be upon you today (even if we disagree).

 

[ChetSinger]

Again, a "username" on a forum to protect a person's privacy that everyone knows is not a real name (in most cases) is not the same thing as lying about your location...

I think you're projecting your conscience onto others.

 

[Isilwen]

I understand that many companies and businesses use a VPN. I can understand in certain circumstances this is okay. An Idaho employee who works remotely can connect into the VPN network of a server of their company in Idaho and yet their job may require them to live or work in another part of the United States. We cannot control what our jobs do, or we would be jobless.

The problem I have is when a VPN is used for private use security by a Christian and they tell the internet world that their server is in another location when in reality that is not where their server is actually at. They choose an Antivirus software program that says the real server is in some other real location (when it is not really there). For example: With a VPN, you can get cheaper airfares by changing your location (Which is dishonest). With a VPN, you can act like you are in another country and access that country's content (that would have been otherwise restricted to you) (Which again is dishonest).



I would encourage you to read through the thread.
I have covered a lot of points made by others here.

Anyways, I have talked on internet forums since 2004. Not once did a person assume that a username was lying and or it was a person's real name.

A "username" on a forum is not lying because it is like a virtual nickname that you give yourself and people understand this. Nicknames can be given to ourselves or others because of a specific reason or purpose. They are usually related to who we are and or what we do. Our parents had to choose a name for us. This is our birth name. On paper applications I used to fill out a section called "Preferred Name" or "Nickname." But if I just started to call you "Sir. Peter H. Brian" for no real rhyme or reason, it would not be true to who you are in any way. It would just be random name labeling with no real thought and intent.

An internet username is not like a VPN because one is merely choosing a nickname that everyone knows is not your real name, and nicknames are usually chosen based on some kind of truth related to that person. A person using a VPN to say that their server location is another city when it is not in that city for private security home use is technically lying because they are saying something that is totally contrary to the truth or reality. When I say I am Bible Highlighter, this is true. It is a nickname I have given myself to identify what I do here. I highlight the Bible for others.

You are still not understanding what everyone is saying or just choosing to not understand. Much like your past dating thread, you will not listen to anyone but what you are saying.

If you have an issue using a VPN, then don't use one, just like dating. If you have an issue dating, don't date. What you cannot do is take something that is a personal sin to you and ascribe that to everyone everywhere. Many can use a VPN without doing it for the wrong reasons. They're not using it to trick a website into thinking that they are in another country so they can bypass the rules of that website or game. Same with dating, just because you yourself had an issue with dating doesn't mean that other people will.

You cannot ascribe sin to someone that is not sinning, especially when that activity isn't sin in the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Umm... I don't know your level of technical sophistication, but this would like boiling the ocean to obtain a cup of water. Are you comfortable with Linux? Do you understand IPTables? Are you accustomed to using the command line instead of a GUI? The difference between TCP and UDP, etc.? Are you interested in spinning up multiple Virtual Machines on your network in order to support this? There's just so many easier ways...

SDP is generally intended for corporations, not typically for consumers.

Thank you. I accept your technical advice. I am glad you explained this. I thought it was something I could do. I am merely interested in making myself invisible instead of having to lie about my location with a VPN. There is Tor (Which is a popular black cloud), but I would not encourage people to go that route because it is a haven for criminal activity and it can lead a believer to seeing some pretty evil content that they should never run into.

 

[Isilwen]

A person using a VPN to say that their server location is another city when it is not in that city for private security home use is technically lying because they are saying something that is totally contrary to the truth or reality.

So, what do you want people to do to secure their information? Nothing?

Using Software Defined Perimeter is well out of the realm of home use for the majority of PC users.

Again, stop ascribing sin where there is none.

 

[John Robie]

Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

VPN is a virtual Private Network that attempts to tell others that you are in another location other than the one that you are at.

If you are still unsure of what a VPN is, here is a trailer promotion for a VPN company (Promoted on a Christian website).

Basically if you live in Denver Colorado, and you wanted to use a VPN (while you surf the internet), you would choose another city to show other people online that you actually were surfing the internet from a different city or location like say: Tampa, Florida.

I’ve taken the time to read through this, and I don’t see the need to rehash other’s arguments. My only question is who exactly are we lying to by using a VPN? Who is looking at my IP to see where I live? I’m not a real technical guy, but I’m trying to figure out an instance where someone would be checking my IP.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are still not understanding what everyone is saying or just choosing to not understand. Much like your past dating thread, you will not listen to anyone but what you are saying.

If you have an issue using a VPN, then don't use one, just like dating. If you have an issue dating, don't date. What you cannot do is take something that is a personal sin to you and ascribe that to everyone everywhere. Many can use a VPN without doing it for the wrong reasons. They're not using it to trick a website into thinking that they are in another country so they can bypass the rules of that website or game. Same with dating, just because you yourself had an issue with dating doesn't mean that other people will.

You cannot ascribe sin to someone that is not sinning, especially when that activity isn't sin in the Bible.

When I upgraded with Avast anti software to it's VPN feature, I did not know at that time that I would be forced into a position to lie. They were telling me to choose the name of another server location in another real named city as a lie, and yet that was not the actual name of the location of the city of where my server was actually at. It was asking me to choose a different city, and State and yet my server was not in that State. It was telling me to lie about my internet IP. The Bible talks about in Revelation 21:8 about how all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Maybe this kind of thing will not condemn a person before God and the Lord will see it differently in a way that is beyond our understanding here, but I am not taking the chance and playing footloose and fancy free with my own soul. I don't want to be anywhere close to something that is akin to lying in any way so as not to be condemned before the Lord my God. This life is but a vapor and is gone. What can man do to me? I have Jesus Christ, the hope of glory. But I prefer to choose the straight and narrow path because Jesus said narrow is the way and few be there that find it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’ve taken the time to read through this, and I don’t see the need to rehash other’s arguments. My only question is who exactly are we lying to by using a VPN? Who is looking at my IP to see where I live? I’m not a real technical guy, but I’m trying to figure out an instance where someone would be checking my IP.

Thanks in advance.

God sees. But yes. There are legit agencies that can check up on us from time to time, and they will know if you are using a VPN or not. They will not see it as any big deal (most likely) if you use one because that is what the world does, but if you decided to not use one because it is lying about your location, then they will see that you are different, and separate from this world.

 

[RDKirk]

I have given this testimony before in other threads.

'Way back in the early 70s, when we were still in Vietnam, I was a young troop in the Air Force. This was back when the military "worked hard and played harder." There was lots of smoking and drinking going on, much of it encouraged and even enabled by senior leadership. After a hard period of military activity, commanders would buy kegs of beer and throw parties for the troops.

I never smoked, but I'd drink beer. During this time, the Holy Spirit told me, "Go...but do not drink."

Something I understood was that this was instruction for me, not general instruction for the Body of Christ, particularly in the fact that my instruction was not to eschew the parties completely, but rather go to the parties...but don't drink.

So I went, but didn't drink. I'd just sip on a Dr Pepper or two, have conversations, and eventually leave before everyone got too crazy.

I was quite successful in my career at that unit. I got a couple of promotions, did excellent work and got plenty of accolades and awards. I still regard that period as the best in my career. When the time came for me to leave for a new assignment, there was a farewell party.

At that party, I was approached by a younger airman. He told me that he was a Christian, and a non-smoker and non-drinker. But he had felt himself under enormous pressure to join in with the activities of the others to "fit in and be one of the guys."

He had been watching me for some time, however, and he saw that I had been successful and well-respected even though I didn't drink or smoke. He thanked me for encouraging him to stick to his beliefs.

I then understood why my instruction had been to "Go...but do not drink."

So if you feel an instruction upon you to forbear using VPNs, then don't use VPNs. But also don't try to enlarge your instruction into a general ruling of sin for the entire Body of Christ. You don't need an opinion poll. You don't need to have anyone else agree with you.

If you had started a thread saying that you were under a particular conviction, I'm sure everyone would have at some point agreed that you needed to follow the dictates of your conviction.

But at this point, you're just arguing over the "disputable matters" that Paul taught about in Romans 14.

 

[Isilwen]

When I upgraded with Avast anti software to it's VPN feature, I did not know at that time that I would be forced into a position to lie. They were telling me to choose the name of another server location in another real named city as a lie, and yet that was not the actual name of the location of the city of where my server was actually at. It was asking me to choose a different city, and State and yet my server was not in that State. It was telling me to lie about my internet IP. The Bible talks about in Revelation 21:8 about how all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Maybe this kind of thing will not condemn a person before God and the Lord will see it differently in a way that is beyond our understanding here, but I am not taking the chance and playing footloose and fancy free with my own soul. I don't want to be anywhere close to something that is akin to lying in any way so as not to be condemned before the Lord my God. This life is but a vapor and is gone. What can man do to me? I have Jesus Christ, the hope of glory. But I prefer to choose the straight and narrow path because Jesus said narrow is the way and few be there that find it.

Then you don't do it if it's an issue for you and you see it as lying. That is your thing, don't make it a blanket rule for everyone.

Understand?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not how it works. Some people in China use VPNs in an attempt to bypass firewalls or protect their own ID for a wide range of reasons. A Chinese person doing this is not pretending to be say from the US to access Google. They are using software to access other software on the internet. What you are saying is like some form of digital anthropomorphism, attributing characteristics to the use of internet software extra dimensions that usage doesn’t entail. Few Chinese people would be naive enough to think that they might deceive their govt by doing this.

Again, when I upgraded to Avast Anti Software VPN feature, it forced me into a position to lie about my server location as a part of that feature. That is what VPN private security software was asking me to do. It was asking me to choose another city and State for my IP address when in reality my IP address was not in that city and State. So it was forcing me to lie. This is not acceptable because God warns about lying in Revelation 21:8.

 

[John Robie]

God sees. But yes. There are legit agencies that can check up on us from time to time, and they will know if you are using a VPN or not. They will not see it as any big deal (most likely) if you use one because that is what the world does, but if you decided to not use one because it is lying about your location, then they will see that you are different, and separate from this world.

Can you give an example of a legit company that would check my IP address?