Should a Christian use a VPN or is that sort of like lying?

[Bible Highlighter]

Obsession over the tiniest points of the law. The size of phylacteries, not using shoes with tacks in the soles, in modern terms not using light switches and so on. The kind of quibbling over petty legalisms Jesus clearly had no interest in.

There were man made traditions and then there were God's laws. Jesus clearly was in favor of keeping God's laws for the Pharisees. In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42, Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

 

[Tom 1]

There were man made traditions and then there were God's laws. Jesus clearly was in favor of keeping God's laws for the Pharisees. In Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42, Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

Exactly. And yes, they created many trivial laws out of fear that they might somehow be breaking the sabbath.

 

[Tom 1]

God is very much into the keeping of His laws.
Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Yes, the distinction between obedience and legalism is an important one, which is why it gets a regular mention throughout the NT.

 

[Tom 1]

Please see post #103 as to what VPN's do.

As for the Sabbath reference: I believe that portion of Scripture just fine. It does not relate to this situation because God never gave us an exception to lie. Jesus made it clear that the OT saint can help a neighbor's animal out of a ditch on the Sabbath because it is a special circumstance so as to love. There is no situation where it is loving to lie in view. Hiding the truth is one thing, but lying is another thing, friend.

Side Note:

I do not believe the Saturday Sabbath is in effect anymore. I believe the Old Covenant ended with Christ's death and we are to follow those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Lying to who? You can lie to internet servers, a bookcase or your fridge if you like to, it has no real-world relevance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly. And yes, they created many trivial laws out of fear that they might somehow be breaking the sabbath.

The burden of proof is on you to show that VPN is not lying. I see it as lying because if you use a VPN to access content in another country that would otherwise be restricted to you, you are pretending to be of that country when you are not (and that is a form of lying).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lying to who? You can lie to internet servers, a bookcase or your fridge if you like to, it has no real-world relevance.

God knows what you do. All sin is ultimately done towards God. Oh, and yes. Some people on the internet who are not bad guy hackers (but a legit government agency), can know of your activities on occasion. They could also know of your activities. They would know you are not telling the truth about your real location if you used a VPN. That would not be a good Christian testimony - IMO.

But we can agree to disagree (of course).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the distinction between obedience and legalism is an important one, which is why it gets a regular mention throughout the NT.

You would be shocked to realize that there are many commands given to us in the New Covenant (New Testament) and not the Old Covenant (Old Testament). I have done a deep study on the topic over the past few years. There are approximately 430 explicit or direct commands in the New Testament. I believe we are to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers and not the Law of Moses. The Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, circumcision, stoning for breaking the Law, etc. is no more.

 

[Tom 1]

You would be shocked to realize that there are many commands given to us in the New Covenant (New Testament) and not the Old Covenant (Old Testament). I have done a deep study on the topic over the past few years. There are approximately 430 explicit or direct commands in the New Testament. I believe we are to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers and not the Law of Moses. The Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, circumcision, stoning for breaking the Law, etc. is no more.

I know. It’s a comparison. For the Jewish people in Jesus’ day, the Sabbath was a strict command. Not content with upholding the practice to enjoy and do good on the sabbath, as intended, some groups obsessed over the minutiae of what might be thought of as ‘work’, fearful of somehow breaking the sabbath unintentionally or not pleasing God in some imagined manner. This was what you might call ‘missing the point’.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know. It’s a comparison. For the Jewish people in Jesus’ day, the Sabbath was a strict command. Not content with upholding the practice to enjoy and do good on the sabbath, as intended, some groups obsessed over the minutiae of what might be thought of as ‘work’, fearful of somehow breaking the sabbath unintentionally or not pleasing God in some imagined manner. This was what you might call ‘missing the point’.

I see the problem in what the Pharisees did and how it was wrong. You are trying to relate it to this situation but you are not adequately connecting the dots in how this is so, my friend.

In order for you to convince me: You have to give me a proper explanation as to how a VPN is not really lying or that there is an exception to lying based upon biblical grounds. Then you need to tie this explanation into what the Pharisees did. If you can do that, then I will say... "thank you."

But I am not so convinced you can.

 

[Tom 1]

God knows what you do. All sin is ultimately done towards God. Oh, and yes. Some people on the internet who are not bad guy hackers (but a legit government agency), can know of your activities on occasion. They could also know of your activities. They would know you are not telling the truth about your real location if you used a VPN. That would not be a good Christian testimony - IMO.

But we can agree to disagree (of course).

Listen to Bob.

Bob: Hello govt

Govt: Hello Bob

Bob: Here is my address, social security number (etc), the passport I use when I travel out of the country.

Govt: Thanks Bob.

Bob: Btw I use a VPN to keep my identity secure online.

Govt: Uh yeah we use those. Good job, Bob. Security is important.

Bob: Yeah.

Govt: Was there something you wanted?

Bob: Uh, no.

Govt: Ok then.

 

[Tom 1]

I see the problem in what the Pharisees did and how it was wrong. You are trying to relate it to this situation but you are not adequately connecting the dots in how this is so, my friend.

In order for you to convince me: You have to give me a proper explanation as to how a VPN is not really lying or that there is an exception to lying based upon biblical grounds. Then you need to tie this explanation into what the Pharisees did. If you can do that, then I will say... "thank you."

But I am not so convinced you can.

It’s a bigger picture question. Sin is sin because of the affect it has on people. What is called pharisaical legalism was an obsessive creation of hypotheticals, driven perhaps by fear or the desire to be seen more ‘righteous’ than the next man. Jesus turns this on its head by reminding them that sin is about how we treat ourselves and other people. Legalism is a kind of cognitive disease that puts a persons focus on all the wrong things.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Listen to Bob.

Bob: Hello govt

Govt: Hello Bob

Bob: Here is my address, social security number (etc), the passport I use when I travel out of the country.

Govt: Thanks Bob.

Bob: Btw I use a VPN to keep my identity secure online.

Govt: Uh yeah we use those. Good job, Bob. Security is important.

Bob: Yeah.

Govt: Was there something you wanted?

Bob: Uh, no.

Govt: Ok then.

We are to be a light to the world. We are to be different from them. We are to be holy and separate from them. Can you think of anything your government does that may be sinful in the eyes of God? If so, their approval of such activities does not make it okay. So if they see you do something different, and you take a stand for what is good and right, they will subtly take notice of how you are different than others. One does these things out of their love and dedication to Christ because of what He has done for them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It’s a bigger picture question. Sin is sin because of the affect it has on people. What is called pharisaical legalism was an obsessive creation of hypotheticals, driven perhaps by fear or the desire to be seen more ‘righteous’ than the next man. Jesus turns this on its head by reminding them that sin is about how we treat ourselves and other people. Legalism is a kind of cognitive disease that puts a persons focus on all the wrong things.

Again, the problem was not that the Pharisees were overly concerned with God's laws but it was because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). So laws or legalism as you put it is not the problem. It is a lack of obedience that is the problem. For the problem of disobedience to God's law started back in the Garden. But the devil wanted to sell Eve on the lie that she could break God's law and not die. This same lie is being pushed today and many (not all) just eat it up like the very fruit she bit into.

 

[RDKirk]

Again, watch the video.
A VPN generally is used to say a person is in a different location that they really are not in.
What if a man lied to his wife about where he was at on the phone?
What is the difference between these two things?
Telling others online that you are in a different location is lying in my view.
Now, if your location was simply cloaked, then that would be a different thing.

The company I recently retired from required us to use a VPN when working from home. Frankly, I don't know what IP address was being reported, but even if I were not using a VPN, it would still report "my" address as being at the location of the ISP server, not the location of my house. Unless you're serving as your own ISP, it's never going to display your true definite location.

Moreover, everyone I communicated through the VPN with knew my location. I never hid it from them. It was frequently even a matter of conversation, particularly since we usually have much better weather down here than in the home office.

But I have a question for you, Bible Highlighter...why are you lying to us about who you really are? Why aren't you using your real name?

 

[RDKirk]

So lying is okay (or not a sin) for the believer when it involves them protecting themselves?
If this is what you are suggesting, then what other sins can Christians do so as to protect themselves?

Well, Rahab lied and was praised for her lie.
The midwives of the Hebrews in Egypt lied, and were praised for their lie.
God directed Moses to lie to the Pharaoh, and even explicitly provided the lie.
David lied when he pretended to be insane before the Philistines.
Jesus lied when he went disguised into Jerusalem.

 

[RDKirk]

Nicknames can appear in application sheets for jobs.
Essentially a "username" is like a nickname. It is simply an online nickname.

You don't go by that false username as your daily nickname, and if you use a nickname in your general social circles, those people still know what your real name is.

"Bible Highlighter" is a lie expressly designed to hide your real name.

 

[RDKirk]

Again, a "username" on a forum to protect a person's privacy that everyone knows is not a real name (in most cases) is not the same thing as lying about your location.

The fact that I know you're lying doesn't mean you aren't lying.

 

[RDKirk]

The burden of proof is on you to show that VPN is not lying.

Not at all. If you declare something to be a sin, the burden is on you to prove it's a sin.

"Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial."

You must prove that using a VPN is not beneficial.

I see it as lying because if you use a VPN to access content in another country that would otherwise be restricted to you, you are pretending to be of that country when you are not (and that is a form of lying).

And I see your using a handle as lying. Checkmate.

 

[jamesbond007]

However, "to he who doubts, to him it is sin" (Rom 14:23), so you do need to assess your own conscience.

Your post did make look up Bible verses for sin. This one was at the top of the list and follows what you said :

"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 4:23

I guess I am a weak person as I am trying now to eat only vegetables, if possible.

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ..." Romans 14:1-23

What Does the Bible Say About Sin?

 

[jamesbond007]

My profile says in each of my posts that I am non-denominational. This means I am not affiliated with any particular named denomination. I just read and believe my Bible and follow it alone as my authority. Actually, most Catholics I have talked with don't have a problem with a VPN.

Well, Catholics can discuss their sin with a priest as well as go to confession. I may have missed your post on this, but have you discussed this with your priest (I know you're not Catholic)?