Should a Christian play "Devil's Advocate"?

[probinson]

I don't have to believe in evolution to study and understand the theory. But if I don't study and understand the theory, I'll never be able to argue persuasively against it.

I used to think this way too. But then I thought, would Jesus stand there and argue persuasively against an evolutionist? I sincerely doubt it.

I am becoming more and more convinced that "persuasive arguing" is far more damaging than it is helpful. People are not led to the Truth by our persuasive arguments. They are led to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

 

[probinson]

This thread made me recall this passage of scripture;

Acts 19:8-9 (NIV)
8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
​

Some people will say, "See there? Paul argued persuasively about the Kingdom of God, so we should too!" But what was the result? Did his persuasive arguments convince them? Some of them perhaps, but others became obstinate.

This helps to confirm what I'm trying to say, in that I believe that the Holy Spirit must lead and guide people to the Truth, and none of our persuasive arguments can accomplish that. But don't get me wrong. I believe that God may still use us IN SPITE of our persuasive arguing to accomplish something.

Even Paul seems to have come to realize that persuasive words weren't as effective, when he wrote this to the church at Corinth;

1 Corinthians 2:4 (NIV)
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
​

People need to see a demonstration of the Spirit's power in our lives.

 

[Tamara224]

I used to think this way too. But then I thought, would Jesus stand there and argue persuasively against an evolutionist? I sincerely doubt it.

I am becoming more and more convinced that "persuasive arguing" is far more damaging than it is helpful. People are not led to the Truth by our persuasive arguments. They are led to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

Paul argued persuasively at times. So did Jesus.

I agree that people are led to Truth by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses many tools in that leading. One of those just might be persuasive arguing. I believe it can be.

I do not discount any gifts that God gives to His people as unnecessary or unusable. I know that, for myself, God has gifted me with certain skills, including a talent for argument. And I know that God has asked me to use it in His service and will do so again. (It has been, however, mostly in the edification of the Body rather than in evangelism).

There's no "one size fits all" "this is how we witness" formula. Rely on the Holy Spirit, yes and that means allowing Him to use whatever means He wants to lead people to the Truth.

And don't discount the ear because it's not an eye.

 

[BenAdam]

Paul knew enough about Greek beliefs to argue on Mar's Hill.

 

[Alpine]

Paul argued persuasively at times. So did Jesus.

I agree that people are led to Truth by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses many tools in that leading. One of those just might be persuasive arguing. I believe it can be.

I do not discount any gifts that God gives to His people as unnecessary or unusable. I know that, for myself, God has gifted me with certain skills, including a talent for argument. And I know that God has asked me to use it in His service and will do so again. (It has been, however, mostly in the edification of the Body rather than in evangelism).

There's no "one size fits all" "this is how we witness" formula. Rely on the Holy Spirit, yes and that means allowing Him to use whatever means He wants to lead people to the Truth.

And don't discount the ear because it's not an eye.

Was Jesus always direct in his teaching? Nope! In fact, he often said, "You have heard it said..." reinterpreting long held traditions.

He also spoke in parables that completely confused his audience and most of the time he didn't even explain the meaning of his parables except to His disciples.

So, I think even Jesus wasn't 100% direct in His teachings.

There is nothing wrong with being a devils advocate. If anything it is helpful.

 

[BenAdam]

I certainly would never eat Devil's food cake, deviled eggs, or anything with the word French in it.

 

[Tenebrae]

Oh good grief.
-snip-

I can assure you, as one who makes her living being such... An advocate cannot be an effective advocate if he or she has never learned to play the devil's advocate.

I concur, in my job as a social worker, sometimes I need to be prepared to take the devils advocate role as it where in order to seek change and reformation.

IOW, we should be ready to be Christ's advocates.

yup. Personally I tend to think its the term people have an issue with, was it called some other kind of advocate, I dont think people would be objecting.

 

[probinson]

Was Jesus always direct in his teaching? Nope! In fact, he often said, "You have heard it said..." reinterpreting long held traditions.

He also spoke in parables that completely confused his audience and most of the time he didn't even explain the meaning of his parables except to His disciples.

So, I think even Jesus wasn't 100% direct in His teachings.

There is nothing wrong with being a devils advocate. If anything it is helpful.

Right, but the difference is, neither Jesus nor Paul spent all day and all night, week after week, month after month trying to pound something into someone's head with their persuasive arguments.

That is where I see the difference. In fact, Jesus was very clear in that when you go somewhere and they don't receive you, you should just quietly leave and shake the dust from your feet and go somewhere else. This is exactly what Paul did when his persuasive arguments were turning people obstinate.

Persuasive arguments have their place, but I think very often, we carry them much too far.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I concur, in my job as a social worker, sometimes I need to be prepared to take the devils advocate role as it where in order to seek change and reformation.

yup. Personally I tend to think its the term people have an issue with, was it called some other kind of advocate, I dont think people would be objecting.

Once again, as the OP, We are not discussing the TERM! We are discussing the practice as Christians regarding discussions of the truth of the Word.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Right, but the difference is, neither Jesus nor Paul spent all day and all night, week after week, month after month trying to pound something into someone's head with their persuasive arguments.

That is where I see the difference. In fact, Jesus was very clear in that when you go somewhere and they don't receive you, you should just quietly leave and shake the dust from your feet and go somewhere else. This is exactly what Paul did when his persuasive arguments were turning people obstinate.

Persuasive arguments have their place, but I think very often, we carry them much too far.

I agree with this.

 

[Tenebrae]

Once again, as the OP, We are not discussing the TERM! We are discussing the practice as Christians regarding discussions of the truth of the Word.

Dont yell, its impolite

If you put up a topic on a public message board complain when people look at all different directions of that topic. Thats what makes free speech great.

If your argument cant stand up to being challenged, then its probably not a good argument

 

[JimB]

If you are uncomfortable being asked questions you can’t answer (by someone playing Truth’s Advocate) it is best to just not go into those forums? But calling someone a devil for asking hard-to-answer questions is a bit over the top.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis​

 

[Elijah2]

Well maybe I’ll try again to say that being the “devil’s advocate” is often those who use a “view” that is full of holes, and such ones use the same old statement: “Where does that appear in Scriptures?” This statement can only build a stronghold of doubt, confusion, and speculation leading the unsuspecting into “double-mindedness and instability” (James 1:6-8).

All believers have many life’s problems and more so for a new believer who seeks clear answers to life’s questions. The sincere “truth-seeker” need a good foundation in His Word and doesn’t need someone pestering them with the “devil’s advocate” mentality to intimidate, or to mock, or to tear them down, as in the case of some who posted on these forums. Casual Bible-readers are very aware of their problems, and they don’t need to be badgered or berated by some who are nothing more than the “devil’s advocate”.

And so true to these words spoken.

“The disciples came and said to Him, ‘Why do You speak to them in parables?’ And He answered and said to them, ‘To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.’” (Mat 13:9-13)

And most believers share His Word in simple parables for others to understand, and one such item that draws swarms of "devil's advocates" is the understanding of demonisation and the supernatural realm. They really come flocking when that is being discussed.

Blessings!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Where does 'the Word' say so?

Is there anything more authoritative than the Word regarding spiritual matters?

The Word of God stands. We don't need to take the enemy's viewpoint to prove that God's Word is right.

 

[Floatingaxe]

It is a legal term.

In the legal system, both sides are entitled to an advocate, who must do his or her best to represent the legal interests of their client, in order to allow justice to be done.

Neither lawyer, on either side, is called upon to bring their own personal beliefs into play. Law is about legality, due process and justice. It is not about getting all het up about a term containing the word 'devil', as if such a word has the power to take away our salvation. Quite simply, it has no such power, and to attribute any power at all to it is to use magical thinking.

There is no place for magical thinking in Christianity.

As an advocate's assistant, I never ever witnessed my boss argue for the other side to make his point!

No one is discussing magic here, but if you want to consider the authority of the Word of God as something that needs to be disputed and punctured for the sake of finding the truth which is right under one's nose, then go ahead and waste your time.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I used to think this way too. But then I thought, would Jesus stand there and argue persuasively against an evolutionist? I sincerely doubt it.

I am becoming more and more convinced that "persuasive arguing" is far more damaging than it is helpful. People are not led to the Truth by our persuasive arguments. They are led to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

Ohhhhh, yeah!!

 

[Floatingaxe]

I like what a paraphrase says in Matthew 5:33-37

And don't say anything you don't mean. This counsel is embedded deep in our traditions. You only make things worse when you lay down a smoke screen of pious talk, saying, 'I'll pray for you,' and never doing it, or saying, 'God be with you,' and not meaning it. You don't make your words true by embellishing them with religious lace. In making your speech sound more religious, it becomes less true. Just say 'yes' and 'no.' When you manipulate words to get your own way, you go wrong.

 

[ajqrszwn]

If you are uncomfortable being asked questions you can’t answer (by someone playing Truth’s Advocate) it is best to just not go into those forums? But calling someone a devil for asking hard-to-answer questions is a bit over the top.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis​

As a Christian who is well-read (I've read the entire Bible), several books on apologetics, etc., I've always had some difficulties with Noah's Ark and the story of Jonah.

I'm a believer in Intelligent Design and micro-not-macro evolution. Still, I don't have a really good answer for the Noah's Ark question. Would it be wrong of a Christian to pose questions about Noah's Ark?

AJ

 

[Floatingaxe]

As a Christian who is well-read (I've read the entire Bible), several books on apologetics, etc., I've always had some difficulties with Noah's Ark and the story of Jonah.

I'm a believer in Intelligent Design and micro-not-macro evolution. Still, I don't have a really good answer for the Noah's Ark question. Would it be wrong of a Christian to pose questions about Noah's Ark?

AJ

There is nothing wrong with a believer posing honest questions about anything.

 

[ajqrszwn]

There is nothing wrong with a believer posing honest questions about anything.

I suppose that non-Christians may ask about a lot of things. I don't usually get questions about Noah's Ark, or Jonah. Eventually, I'd like to get an answer that's better than, it was a really big boat and it took 100 years to build it.

But what I've found is that if non-Christians are interested in Christianity, they are usually more interested in what belief in Jesus does for a person, how it improves their life, how it improves their character, etc.

Regarding being a "devil's advocate", I think it can be harmful to non-Christians to know about some of the garbage that goes on in churches, such as adultery, embezzlement, child molestation. So it goes with questions that the Christian does not need to pose to the non-Christian. I don't point out contradictions in Scripture even though I know where they are. If I non-Christian says to me, "Isn't the Bible full of contradictions?", I won't show him the location of the contradiction. Instead, I'll just ask, "Can you show me one?" Chances are, they can't. If they can, then I'll answer their question, if I am able to, and if not, I'll look it up and get back to them.

Still, I haven't ever been able to adequately answer for myself the question of Noah's Ark. With Jonah, I can say, well, he got swallowed and thrown up by a fish. Ok, that's possible.

But Noah's Ark is a really tough one for me. It's important to me, but not the most important thing.

AJ