She's not a virgin....

[bhirning]

What do you mean by that? Even if I 'see her as one' it will not change the reality that she is not one. I'd only be in denial and fooling myself.

What you have to remember is that when anyone is saved, &/or baptized, he/she has been washed away of his/her sins. Check out the scripture of the Samaritan woman that met Jesus at the well. She was divorced 5 times! Jesus forgave her! Remember to ask God if she is the right one. Then just listen! Listen as long as it takes until you know in your heart & soul that you've received your answer.

I WILL PRAY FOR YOU! (one of your original requests)

 

[KarateCowboy]

Jacque,

you have come a long way from "I really need your prayer and help." If you already had your mind made up, why seek advice?

I made up my mind last night after reading what you guys said and talking to a good Christian friend of mine. I also spent several hours in prayer and reading scripture. I was especially provoked by when you said to see her through the eyes of grace not judgement.

 

[ischus]

ok, so you did take something from the thread

Good. From your previous post it appeared as if you were upset about it. But I am glad you are hearing what you needed to hear.

btw, the "eyes of grace" thing is something I picked up from Philip Yancey. His book, What's So Amazing about Grace? is excellent. I reccommend it to you.

 

[waterbear]

To Waterbear:

No offense to you, but I disagree with just about everything you quoted. I was in a similar situation to Jacque's in that I was dating a wonderful woman who had slipped away from the Lord in her high school and college years and who had had a couple of different partners before we met. However, she had been walking strong for a number of years and hadn't had sex in that time.

While I do agree that it may be impossible to totally forget a person's past relationships, I think there has to be a kind of 'statute of limitations' for previous sins. If a person has a history of sexual sin or has only just recently come to Christ, that would be something else. But for a person who has repented and walked the narrow path, I see nothing wrong with forgiving him or her. If God has forgiven her, can I do nothing less?

As for the woman I mentioned earlier, we'll be celebrating our fourth anniversary this year, and she's shown no signs of a sinful sexual nature.

My post was in defense of having virgin-only dating policies - it was NOT intended to pursuade people to adopt virgin-only dating policies. It was only mentioned here to counter the 'forgiveness' arguments. As before, God sees a 300 lb 4 foot tall obese woman as beautiful - that doesn't mean you're obligated to overlook that she is 300 lbs and 4 feet tall when considering whether you're interested in a romantic relationship with this woman.

Also, I was not intending to imply that non-virgins will be repeat offenders. I wouldn't date a non-virgin even if I was granted foresight and knew she would not be unfaithful again. How recent adultry is means nothing to me, only that it occurred. How often adultry occurs means nothing to me beyond that it occurred. I don't distinguish between fornication and adultry.

 

[InTheFlame]

They say it's the most precious thing you can give your spouse, and that whenever you have sex with someone you 'take to bed with you every one you have slept with in the past'. I don't want that cursed stuff. How can I get over this. It's eating away at me. Please pray for me and offer some advice!!

Erk... I suspect it's the rhetoric that's the problem!

First - I don't believe virginity is the most precious thing a person can give their spouse. I believe that a loving, gentle, kind spirit is THE most precious (and highly-valued in marriage!) gift you can give your spouse. Marriages don't break up solely because a person wasn't a virgin on their wedding day (they can because of problems that caused promiscuity, that have never been dealt with, of course). Marriages generally break up because of a lack of Godly love from one or both people.

Second - 'you take to bed with you every one you've slept with in the past'??? Huh? How ridiculous IS that statement, when you really look at it?

I get highly irritated at the silly emotional but spiritually empty statements that get made in order to encourage young people to keep sex for marriage. Sorry if I've allowed my irritation to make my post completely useless to you.

 

[fishstix]

Second - 'you take to bed with you every one you've slept with in the past'??? Huh? How ridiculous IS that statement, when you really look at it?

Actually, that statement does have some truth to it. Especially if you think in the context of STDs and keep in mind that there are almost certainly some STDs being spread that medicine hasn't discovered yet.

 

[Ben johnson]

Jacque --- I understand that "desire to find a virgin". I share that desire. I also am a virgin, so I have the "right" to ask.

....or do I? In Matt5:28, Jesus said, "Thinking adultery IS adultery". I confess that throughout my life I have not been sinless in my thoughts. Am I a virgin in God's eyes? No.

But there are many things for you to consider --- a woman who has had sex only three times in her life, does not really have the "ghosts" and "history" that you fear; it takes many times before you learn what the other wants and how to please them. And it's clear that her sin did not involve emotional love. So though she had "physical bonding", she's really "emotionally a virgin".

This is a difference between men and women --- men (not us here!) will frequent prostitutes, but women (as a rule) will not; men subscribe to bad magazines, women don't. Women read ROMANCE novels --- we don't. Why? We're DIFFERENT. It has been said that "a woman will more easily forgive adultery than a man will, because a woman understands that a man is 'sight-stimulated', and likely hadn't deep emotions tied up in it; and a man understands that the woman did."

You need to find a mirror, and ask yourself, "Have I always been a virgin in my heart and spirit"? I really (respectfully) doubt you have. Nevertheless, fantasy differs greatly from reality --- I do not know the "emotional connection" that comes with true physical intimacy, for I have never experienced it. And arguably, neither has your girlfriend.

Please, do this lovely woman a favor and walk away from her.

I am afraid that you will never move beyond seeing your relationship as a matter of you forgiving her for things she did before she knew you and before she knew the Lord. I'm afraid your attitude will pollute your sexual relationship with her and undermine a marriage.

Sorry Jacque, this may be the truth. You need to answer a foundational question --- can you "move beyond" this?

For me, my "desire for virginity", is simply that I HAVE "saved myself" --- forty-some years of longing for a wedding night that will be "new" to both of us. A true union of body and spirit, belonging ONLY to each other, as God intended. And yet --- I am pragmatic; what if I was required to forgive my wife of adultery, AFTER having-been-married? Could I? Would I?

Yes. (As long as it isn't "continual/repeated".)

If you have a "spiritual and emotional connection", if she will challenge you to grow in Christ (and you will challenge her), if she has all the godly qualities you seek and you truly ENJOY her and long to be with her when you're apart, please consider what I said about "only 3 times". But know this --- if you decide to stay WITH her, you MUST completely forget that she WAS NOT when you married. You will do a severe disservice, and HARM to both her and yourself if you do not.

A friend of mine, "Becky", was a virgin when she married --- and her husband was NOT (far more common a scenario --- because guys are easier to stumble. The "sight-stimulated" thing...) She would see one of his old friends, and ask him, "Is SHE one that you were with?" He would say, "Do you really want to know?" "Yes." "No she wasn't." She soon realized the harm that did --- if "Patrick" was God's choice for her, if she had DECIDED to be with him, then she had to stop dwelling on his past.

There is merit in desiring virginity. Each partner knows there will be no "memories", no "wrong names called in the heat of passion" (major bucket-of-icewater I'm told). And yet, God knows our needs --- if He has chosen someone for us, who are we to argue? BUT --- the understanding of God's-choice-for-us can be difficult (we're imperfect). Realize there is not "one perfect match" for anyone. If this truly is a consideration for you (and it does sound so, doesn't it?) --- then please consider letting her go.

The thought of, "What if I don't find anyone else?" --- isn't fair to her. For if that IS your thought, then she will be "what you have SETTLED for".

...and her heart will be broken if/when she realizes that, especially if you see someone that you think "you COULD have married."

There was a song about that: "It's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes along." Always made me angry --- I thought, "What an IDIOT --- if he was willing to WORK on who he was WITH, then SHE would be the right one."

If you commit to her, you will be required to commit COMPLETELY. If you cannot, don't.

That's all the advice I can give....

 

[Ben johnson]

Actually, that statement does have some truth to it. Especially if you think in the context of STDs and keep in mind that there are almost certainly some STDs being spread that medicine hasn't discovered yet.

That's true. HIV can lodge "interstitially", and not show up for thirty years. It has a diameter of one micron, and latex is POROUS (full of holes!), with an average hole size of TEN MICRONS! (IE, though liquid won't pass through, the virus can, and will, EASILY!)

Many factors influence "infection" --- immunological health and resistance, critical density for infection (one generally doesn't get infected from only a few dozen rhino-viruses ["cold" germs], nor STD's) --- but there can be the "one lucky bug" that DOES infect. It's all a probability function.

One who "sleeps around", or has (ever), cannot say "I don't have HIV". He/she can only say, after 10 years of negative testing, "probably don't". Twenty years, "Highly unlikely to have it." Thirty years, "It's almost certain I don't". But it will never be 100%.

(Sorry if this affects what I said to you, Jacque. It's another consideration. If she's been testing negative on all "bugs" for at least ten years, it's very unlikely she has anything.)

 

[bliz]

LOL She committed adultery with this guy, and I'M the villain?
[/color][/size][/font]
My attitude will pollute my sexual relationship with her? Sexual sin pollutes sexual relationships, not the desire to get over sexual sins.
[/color][/size][/font]

My decision is that I will forgive her and let it go. I will try, as ischus said, to 'see her through the eyes of Grace'. It will be hard, but I will do my best to let it be something inconsequential. QUOTE]

Yeah, right. If this is forgivness, please don't ever forgive meof anything!

 

[KarateCowboy]

Yeah, right. If this is forgivness, please don't ever forgive meof anything!

LOL ok well if this is so horrible then I suggest you bow out of this discussion.

But there are many things for you to consider --- a woman who has had sex only three times in her life, does not really have the "ghosts" and "history" that you fear; it takes many times before you learn what the other wants and how to please them. And it's clear that her sin did not involve emotional love. So though she had "physical bonding", she's really "emotionally a virgin".

This is true, and brings me great comfort. Ben, I have read your post and I'm quite impressed with what you have to say.

 

[InTheFlame]

That's true. HIV can lodge "interstitially", and not show up for thirty years. It has a diameter of one micron, and latex is POROUS (full of holes!), with an average hole size of TEN MICRONS! (IE, though liquid won't pass through, the virus can, and will, EASILY!)

Many factors influence "infection" --- immunological health and resistance, critical density for infection (one generally doesn't get infected from only a few dozen rhino-viruses ["cold" germs], nor STD's) --- but there can be the "one lucky bug" that DOES infect. It's all a probability function.

One who "sleeps around", or has (ever), cannot say "I don't have HIV". He/she can only say, after 10 years of negative testing, "probably don't". Twenty years, "Highly unlikely to have it." Thirty years, "It's almost certain I don't". But it will never be 100%.

Ben - do you have any (internet-based) source for this, that you could point me towards?

 

[Godsgurl77]

There seem to be a lot of posts going on right now about similar subjects, and it's really got me thinking. I'm a virgin, my fiance is not. He had two previous partners - one very short relationship in his younger teen years (which doesn't bother me much), and then a longer, on and off relationship throughout high school (which bothers me more). With the second, the relationship was pretty serious until his girlfriend became a Christian and moved on, and then my fiance became a Christian (praise God!). I really think I'm doing well with forgiveness and letting it go, but that doesn't keep my mind from wandering sometimes. So here's my question...For those of you who have been on the side of my fiance, not a virgin, do you or have you thought about previous partners when you were "with" your spouse? Maybe I'm treading on dangerous ground here, and I'm sure this will vary from person to person. I'm just wondering what it's like to be on the other side of it, especially for a guy. How hard is it for a guy to not think about previous partners?

 

[Yitzchak]

Please, do this lovely woman a favor and walk away from her.

I am afraid that you will never move beyond seeing your relationship as a matter of you forgiving her for things she did before she knew you and before she knew the Lord. I'm afraid your attitude will pollute your sexual relationship with her and undermine a marriage.

Your list of what you want in a wife is very unrealistic. All of us have times when we are weak in our faith. Peter spent time with Jesus in the flesh and yet denied Him - do you really think you might not do the same someday? All of us have times when we are lazy, when we use inappropriate language, and when we are not respectful to people we love. It's called sin, and even when we know Jesus, we continue to sin. This woman will and you will.

She deserves to have someone unreservedly love her - someone who will count it a privilage to know her and to be loved by her. You seem to need to swallow very hard before you are prepared to do that.

I have to second this advice. You are a long way from being ready for marriage with this woman. There are too many issues to work through.

 

[Ben johnson]

"Source" for which point, Flame? All the facts should be easily searchable --- the "one-micron-size" is from a PBS show (should be easily found on the web), the "ten-micron-hole-size" of latex is fact (do balloons stay afloat forever?). The "lodge-interstitially" does happen (virus gets "stuck" somewhere), but probably is far less likely than the basic "infection scenario". Viruses contain no metabolic processes, they are nothing more than a protein shell and a scrap of DNA --- they "corrupt" body cells into becoming "virus factories". The HIV virus accesses two Human cell receptor cites (think, "door-locks") --- CD4, and I forget the other. Once "open", the virus bonds with the cell outer membrane and injects its "scrap of DNA". Enzymes cleave the Human DNA (as I understand it), and insert the HIV segment.

Now --- there no longer is a virus, only a Human body cell, with an evil HIV segment in one of the DNA strands. At some point in time, your body asks that cell to "do something" --- perform some job or other. On the average, it's 8 years. But it can be as long as 30. The cell tries to "switch on" the DNA segment needed for the requested function, but the HIV segment gets switched on instead, and the cell becomes an HIV factory.

(If any of my understanding is wrong, perhaps a passing microbiologist can correct me...)

Short of "molecular resonance*", there is nothing we have that works INSIDE of cells. And the HIV is very sinister --- it attacks and disables "T" cells, the primary detector in the body's defense system; thus, the body is unable to destroy it. The body tries to make antibodies (these are what are detected in AIDS tests) --- they take up to 6 months to show up, and aren't completely effective. Assuming, that there was a full "initial infection" --- the "initial infection" is countered effectively ("flu-like symptoms" but recovery in a few days); it is the long-term infection that cannot be countered as the not-completely-defeated pathogen slowly erodes immunity. Current treatments include "viral-inhibitors", which bond replicative sites on the virus --- unfortunately, they also disable other Human replication sites (side effects).

One reason I posted my booklet on "SEX" here (ChristianForums) --- to encourage people to avoid behavior that damages spiritually, and physically. Better to AVOID what so far cannot be cured.

__________________________________________________________________
* Molecular Reasonance --- "Nuclear Magnetic Reasonance Imaging", now called "MRI", resonates hydrogen-based molecules with a radio-frequency signal, in the presence of strong magnetic fields. When the reasonated-molecules decay (from their resonated state), they emit an RF field, which can be detected and translated into an image. While CAT scans work on bones and solid materials ('cause they're X-rays), MRI's work on soft tissue ('cause soft tissue is mostly water, hydrogen...)

It stands to reason that a complex radio frequency signal can be created that will "resonate" specific molecular configurations --- just as your radio tuner can select ONE STATION from all of the bands. If the resonance is sufficiently high (and the parasitic resonance of DESIRED molecules sufficiently LOW), it is theoretically possible to COOK all of the cells that contain HIV. Or Malaria. Or BSE ("mad cow disease", assuming the prean sp? resonates differently than a normal protein).

Imagine sitting someone at the focus of a radio-frequency emitter, and doing a complete "WIPE" of infectuous pathogens.

Perhaps we can find a common configuration for rhino-viruses ("common colds") and influenzas, that does not change between mutations. We could SCRAP cold remedies and flu-vaccines, and simply CURE the bug in maybe 9.3 seconds. That would be great, wouldn't it???

BTW --- there is a gene that confers immunity to BUBONIC PLAGUE --- and a person who inherits that gene from BOTH parents, appears to be immune to AIDS.



Jacque --- forgive me for "digressing" and "hijacking your thread". Say the word and I'll remove this post...

 

[SugarMag]

Plenty of virgin brides make terrible wives.



-SugarMag

 

[Ben johnson]

Plenty of virgin brides make terrible wives.

I'm sure that's true.

But --- don't you think that "plenty of terrible wives" happen because of husbands who take her for granted, who do not help with housework, who cease "sprucing themselves up" and cease "asking her for dates" and cease "telling her she's BEAUTIFUL and how much he LOVES her"?

Men and women need different things (with overlap); men need to be revered, women need to be nurtured and VALIDATED. I hear so many guys complaining about "the old bag", and I wonder: "You know what to do when your LAWN is brown --- you water it and feed it and care for it until it turns green. How is it that you don't know the proper "fertilizer" for a happy wife?

 

[Godsgurl77]

amen Ben!!!

 

[lisarn]

Jacque

I am glad you have decided to forgive her and stay with her. I believe if you really do love her this is the right thing to do. God bless you and her both.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I have to second this advice. You are a long way from being ready for marriage with this woman. There are too many issues to work through.

Elaborate. What issues, and how do you know? Tell me how I am not ready, and why you believe I am not ready in that way.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I have to second this advice. You are a long way from being ready for marriage with this woman. There are too many issues to work through.

Of course I am not ready for marriage, but I'd like you to elaborate. What issues do you believe warrant my giving up a good woman, and why do you believe those issues exist?