SHEEPEOPLE

[Loudmouth]

In worldly matters, yes. In these matters, no.

God doesn't exist in our universe? God doesn't affect anything that goes on in this universe?

You say that like you could produce a gallon of water within a quart jar. How many times do we have to say, "Your little demo world ain't big enough for all of reality!"?

How many times do we have to say that empty assertions are not convincing.

Let's say you were on a jury in a murder trial. During that trial, the prosecution brought forth a witness who stated, "God told me that the suspect is guilty". Would you find the defendant guilty based solely on that testimony? Probably not, right?

 

[Michael]

Then show us the verifiable evidence.

There you go applying a purely empirical standard to the topic of God, whereas all your 'dark' invisible sky buddies get a completely free pass.

 

[HitchSlap]

Perhaps science isn't capable of rising to the level of the supernatural. For example, science evaluates our problems, which are largely spiritual in nature, and continues to present the same failed 'natural' solutions.

Until such time you're able to provide an appropriate "spiritual" solution, we'll continue to rely on the best "natural" solutions we have.

 

[HitchSlap]

So we can dismiss Dark Matter, since every experiment has failed, along with the theory that devised it?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/supersymmetry-fails-test-forcing-physics-seek-new-idea/

But you are not seeking new ideas, are you, but reiterating the same old Fairie Dust.

I'll take natural explanations for a $1,000, Alex.

 

[HitchSlap]

However eloquent, that is simply a way of retreating to known terms. I do understand your resistance, but it doesn't gain anything. That line of reasoning speaks to the scientific side of the equation, but NOT to the spiritual side...and that is the problem. The same old tools and logic, do not apply. There are always new horizons...since when is retreating the correct course to take?

To the point then: There is no "spiritual side."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Until such time you're able to provide an appropriate "spiritual" solution, we'll continue to rely on the best "natural" solutions we have.

Spiritual, meaning principled, solutions are well known by most. They are simply rejected.

 

[HitchSlap]

Spiritual, meaning principled, solutions are well known by all. They are simply rejected.

Feel free to explain.

 

[ScottA]

So how did you verify your beliefs to yourself?

By no coincidence I found myself in a room for two weeks with a bookshelf with hundreds of books. Among them was a bible. I read it from cover to cover without stopping, and there were thousands of verifications relative to my experience that could not be denied. So I don't.

ScottA said: ↑
Yes, people on both sides are so unreliable. Still, it won't go away.

What do you mean?

You obviously are weighing things on your own findings and not on others, unless it suits you. But even the ones you pick are subject to human error, as are you. We all could be wrong. But the strong do indeed survive...except in this case, we have adapted to what is coming...while you simply burrow in. It doesn't make the storm go away. Savvy?

Can you give an example of evidence that supports the bible stories, and shows them to actually be true? (Or at least makes them probably true)

This isn't a matter of comfort, it's a matter of being intellectually honest. Besides, the more comforting position would be to believe I'm going to live an eternal life in paradise. I'm arguing against that worldview, not retreating to it..

It's personal man. No. You have to do it for yourself. But you will not find it without looking under the right Rock.

The handwriting is on the wall, and unless you learn to read between the lines...your intellect won't save you from what is coming.

 

[HitchSlap]

By no coincidence I found myself in a room for two weeks with a bookshelf with hundreds of books. Among them was a bible. I read it from cover to cover without stopping, and there were thousands of verifications relative to my experience that could not be denied. So I don't.


You obviously are weighing things on your own findings and not on others, unless it suits you. But even the ones you pick are subject to human error, as are you. We all could be wrong. But the strong do indeed survive...except in this case, we have adapted to what is coming...while you simply burrow in. It doesn't make the storm go away. Savvy?


It's personal man. No. You have to do it for yourself. But you will not find it without looking under the right Rock.

The handwriting is on the wall, and unless you learn to read between the lines...your intellect won't save you from what is coming.

Don't confuse fate with coincidence.

We are pattern seeking mammals, and we usually find what we're looking for.

 

[DaisyDay]

If an ape see a person on the floor with 5 gunshots in the back with the banana in his hand the only evidence it will see is the banana and not a murder.

Depends on the ape - most humans would put it together correctly.

Evidence and/or data is useless without something or idea to put all the evidence/ data into.

So we can dismiss Dark Matter, since every experiment has failed, along with the theory that devised it?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/supersymmetry-fails-test-forcing-physics-seek-new-idea/

But you are not seeking new ideas, are you, but reiterating the same old Fairie Dust.

That article was written before the Higgs boson was found.

 

[OliviaMay]

There you go applying a purely empirical standard to the topic of God, whereas all your 'dark' invisible sky buddies get a completely free pass.

I would accept non empirical evidence. Do you have any?

 

[Michael]

I would accept non empirical evidence. Do you have any?

Well, for starters humans have been reporting an effect called "God" on their lives since the dawn of recorded human civilization. The existence of God would go a long way toward explaining that phenomenon.

 

[OliviaMay]

Well, for starters humans have been reporting an effect called "God" on their lives since the dawn of recorded human civilization. The existence of God would go a long way toward explaining that phenomenon.

Very true people have reported mysterious feelings of many kinds. People report being abducted by aliens too. That doesn't make aliens more or less likely to be true. It just means people have feelings they can't explain. There are many potential explanations.

 

[Michael]

That article was written before the Higgs boson was found.

Why does that matter? The Higgs was in fact "found" via normal experimentation, whereas no SUSY sparticle, nor any stable non-baryonic form of "dark" matter was found.

 

[Michael]

Very true people have reported mysterious feelings of many kinds. People report being abducted by aliens too.

And yet there is no actual comparison in terms of percentages. People report being abducted by other people too.

That doesn't make aliens more or less likely to be true. It just means people have feelings they can't explain. There are many potential explanations.

Sure, and one *obvious* one that atheists tend to reject out of hand. Why?

 

[Michael]

http://convozine.com/12287-dharmachakra/15330

Even the large scale structures of our universe mirror 'intelligent' structures that are found on Earth.

 

[OliviaMay]

And yet there is no actual comparison in terms of percentages. People report being abducted by other people too.



Sure, and one *obvious* one that atheists tend to reject out of hand. Why?

I don't know if it is rejected so much as not given the weight you think it deserves. I don't believe in aliens because a bunch of people tell stories of being abducted do you? I accept they believe it is true. I accept that something may have happened, but I don't just accept that it was aliens.

 

[OliviaMay]

http://convozine.com/12287-dharmachakra/15330

Even the large scale structures of our universe mirror 'intelligent' structures that are found on Earth.

Patterns are everywhere. Humans see patterns. We see structures in random cloud formations all the time. Seeing patterns doesn't mean patterns are there deliberately or even actually there.

 

[Michael]

I don't know if it is rejected so much as not given the weight you think it deserves.

And yet the "weight" that someone attributes to the effect is really a subjective judgement call.

I don't believe in aliens because a bunch of people tell stories of being abducted do you?

No of course not, but such reports and beliefs are also *uncommon*, unlike human belief in/experience of God.

I accept they believe it is true. I accept that something may have happened, but I don't just accept that it was aliens.

I'm sure that's the way most atheists perceive experiences of God too. The difference is that one is very *common* whereas the other is not.

 

[Michael]

Patterns are everywhere. Humans see patterns. We see structures in random cloud formations all the time. Seeing patterns doesn't mean patterns are there deliberately or even actually there.

Yet pattern recognition is an important part of science. Not only do they "look' the same, they have functional similarities too, starting with the fact that they are both excellent *conductors* of current. If current carrying structures in our physical forms can give rise to awareness, then why wouldn't such a process be possible at virtually *any* scale?