Sharing the sufferings of Christ

[LouisBooth]

I agree kyle, if we are being disciples of Christ we will suffer. The enemy attacks the good soldiers first.

 

[RaceRunner]

Well, after I've read Kyle's online book, and the above replies, I still can't see that new light is brought on this subject.

Do you really mean that feeling depressed because of a hostile comment regarding one's skin color is an example of the sufferings of Christ? Or that feeling downcast and troubled because you're having a hard time with your family, your neighbours, your wokmates etc. is the sufferings of Christ?

And when Peter writes in the earlier quoted verse: "...then arm yourselves with the same mind..." what does he mean? Isn't it that Christ suffered when enduring temptations and by his Spirit also gave us the opportunity to do the same? Thus we can arm ourselves in the temptations with the faith that Christ has been in the the same temptation, but he overcame, and he by his Spirit we can also endure our temptations and overcome.

Let us pay attention to Paul's words in 2. Kor. 4: 8-11: "We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed - always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

Enduring temptations brings suffering in our flesh. By patience in those sufferings the death of Christ takes place in us, so that we are not only delivered from the temptations, but the sin is put to death, thus we will never be tempted in that particular area again. Then, the life of Jesus is manifested in our mortal flesh: We gain his virtues, his good deeds, and we truly become his brothers. Can you imagine a greater calling?

 

[TruelightUK]

I'm sure what folk are saying about 'suffering' as we 'mortify the flesh' is true and right. But I can't help thinking the 'being delivered to death' etc. spoken of by Peter, and many similar comments by Paul are actually refering to something far more concrete. They are words of encouragment addressed to a persecuted minority, who faced the very real possibility of physical beatings and even martyrdom for their faith in Jesus Christ. The apostles desire that they do not be intimidated by these threats and experiences, but rather be strengthened in their faith, knowing that their Lord and Saviour went through similar experiences and emerged triumphant. Following his example, they are to accept suffering for their faith with glad hearts, rejoicing in their heavenly reward. This is truly 'sharing in his sufferings', who came to his own people but was rejected, who committed no sin, yet died a criminals death, who had the whole power of heaven at his disposal, yet submitted to vilification, torture and death innobedience to the One who sent him - and 'for the joy set before him' of seeing others liberated and brought newness of life as a result.

Anthony
Anthony

 

[LouisBooth]

What do you think of Ecc 7:13 then?

 

[RaceRunner]

LouisBooth: I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the question regarding Ecc 7:13. But then I'm not very good in the english language, so that could be the problem.

Let me just add this to the discussion: Many prophets and God-fearing people suffered tremendous physical hardship before Jesus came to earth. Just read Hebrews 11 and see what they suffered. Then in 1. Peter 1:10-11 we can see that the same prophets searched and inquired about the grace that was to come: the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

The spirit testified in them about a greater hope, a hope of sharing the sufferings of Christ, and through that become finished with sin. This was a grace that they themselves couldn't partake of, though they had shared a lot of the same physical sufferings that Jesus later had to go through.

The greatest calling for a christian is to be able to share the sufferings of Christ and through those sufferings be finished with sin and become a fellow heir with Jesus.

This will probably be my last post on this subject, as I have shared with you most of what was on my heart. Many ver good and important verses have been quoted by the participants, and I will encourage everyone who are interested to read them all very thoroughly and carefully. God gives light to those who are seeking for wisdom by his word.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The greatest calling for a christian is to be able to share the sufferings of Christ and through those sufferings be finished with sin and become a fellow heir with Jesus.
"

I agree. I would say this happens upon physical death and then remaking of your physical body into a imperishable one.

 

[Rafael]

I've enjoyed reading all the posts here. Earlier, Louis mentioned that the fleshly nature is gone after I posted, but I disagree. This version of verse in the Bible is interesting to add:
Galatians 5:17 (LIV) For we naturally love to do evil things that the Holy Spirit tells us not to do; and the good things we want to do when the Holy Spirit has His way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.

 

[LouisBooth]

That verse needs to be taken in context of the passage. Here Paul is addressing about abusing christian freedom. Yes, we still have habits that we need to put to rest, but the old man is still gone. He is addressing how the galatians have been decieved into keeping the law and harping on each other for it. I don't see how this verse contradicts my view at all when you read the whole passage.

 

[Rafael]

I must be missing something in my faith in understanding. If my old nature is gone, then why do I need to deny myself daily, pick up my cross and follow the Lord in His sufferings? The Bible also says that Christ learned obedience through suffering - then so must I.

Positionally, I am hid in Christ and clean from sin. I think we are in agreement, and that I just don't understand something your trying to say.

 

[LouisBooth]

"If my old nature is gone, then why do I need to deny myself daily, pick up my cross and follow the Lord in His sufferings? "

Umm...Jesus had to do that, you have desires that don't fit into God's plan, that doesn't mean you have a sinful nature. Its part of sanctification, getting rid of the old habits and replacing them with new ones. Did that help?

 

[TruelightUK]

Surely the thing Paul says is that we are to see ourselves as dead to sin, because of what Christ has done for us, thus enabling us to put to death the old sinful nature's lingering influence over our minds and bodies. Spiritually, we are new creations after His image, and we are to consciously put on that new nature, living in accordance with that greater reality. We have a new heart - of living flesh, not dead stone - out of which the issues of life proceed, and this must come to dominate our old patterns of thinking and behaving, as we renew our minds and offer our bodies as living sacrifices.

As for Eccles 7:13: "Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight which he hath made crooked", I am somewhat at a loss as to how this relates to this thread - care to enlighten me, Louis?

Anthony

 

[LouisBooth]

"I am somewhat at a loss as to how this relates to this thread - care to enlighten me, Louis?"

It was about sharing the suffereings of Christ. God makes the bad and good times. Look at the passage. 7:14 is the key I think.

As for your view on new creation, I agree with you insofar as the old sinful nature's lingering influence comes as old habits. Like a man getting out of jail still "feels" a need to ask a guard to go to the bathroom, although in reality, he has no need to, he is free. The habits are still there, but we are free, the sinful nature is dead and gone. The process you are talking about is sanctification.

 

[Rafael]

I keep finding verses that don't agree with your statement entirely or in part.

Romans 7:5 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I am open to your interpretation sir.

I will add that I do think we have to relearn much after being born anew. I think of judgment. It has been natural for man to make judgment of good and evil at first impression ever since the garden and the fall from our knowledge of it. Now, I must learn to love as a first at first impression, believing the best for the other person until I know better.

 

[LouisBooth]

That passage in cp 7 is not about a christian in the current sence. verse 14 should tell you that. NO christian is a slave to sin. We are free of the law of sin and death, we are no longer bound to it. Paul says as much in EVER one of the letters he writes. One of the clearest places is Col 2:13-15

So who is this in this passage. It is Paul looking back at his past before he was a christian. He wanted to keep the law, and on the outside he did, flawlessly as he says himself in Phil 3:4-6. On the inside he was wanting to do God's law, but now looking back he knows he couldn't do it. the passage takes you through Paul's life summing up when he is saved by Christ. His realization that he needed it in verse 24..and accepting it in verse 25. Then it goes into a passage about living in the spirit. Other clues that this is a christian talking about his past from his CURRENT perspective is the actual text....He is speaking historically..the law sprang up and he died...That is far in the past. Hope that helps enlighten how that passage fits right in with my view.

 

[Rafael]

I guess we will have to not be in agreement. I don't see Paul talking of His past or he would have said "O wretched man that I was, who would save me from that body of death".

I think that if you viewpoint is that of our position in Christ where we are hid in him at the right hand of the Father to be revealed, then we stand closer to agreement.

In the world we will have to battle our flesh and it's selfish desires daily and take them to the cross.

 

[SnuP]

I look at it as because of the salvation process we have been given power to overcome the sinful nature.  It we live after the spirit we will not satisfy the lust of the flesh.  We are given the ability to live after the spirit which allows us to overcome the flesh.  Cigarette smoking is not a habit, its an addiction, a lust of the flesh.  The same is true of many types of sin.

Also, the main reason for God allowing suffering in our lifes is so that He can gain glory.  Thru suffering we learn and grow and become overcomers.  All suffering is allowed so that we can show the power of God though our overcoming.  God desires that we overcome every suffering.  Jesus overcame every suffering, He endured until God recieved all the glory possible and then He gave up the ghost.  He said that no man could take His life.  Which means that no man had power over His life.

Let us endure suffering with joy, to show everyone that God's power has made us overcomers.  That there is no power on earth or under the earth that can hold us down, because God is for us and has given us His authority.

 

[LouisBooth]

"I don't see Paul talking of His past or he would have said "O wretched man that I was, who would save me from that body of death".
"

Again, that is because he was speaking in a current perspective, telling a story.

 

[Rafael]

Thanks SnuP. I'll copy and paste that one to my memoirs. Very well stated.

 
The process has been turned up to high for me, still being disabled from a bone marrow transplant back in 1995. I've learned much in suffering and been on edge (of learning) since that day I went into the hospital and survived that and several near death experiences, getting to this day. I wait upon the Lord like never before in my life.

I've had some be very seriously at odds with me and this illness, expecting me to be healed and back to the Christian ministry I was envolved in before getting sick. I've always felt that the Lord has had incredible patience and love towards me and still do. So many people believe it's the enemy that does these things, and fault me and my faith for having put up with it. Like you say SnuP, I look forward to the day all these things are overcome, either in this life or the next, by the blood of the lamb. I'll try and help the Lord along as much as I am able in doing my part in obedience.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by raphe
Thanks SnuP. I'll copy and paste that one to my memoirs. Very well stated.

 
The process has been turned up to high for me, still being disabled from a bone marrow transplant back in 1995. I've learned much in suffering and been on edge (of learning) since that day I went into the hospital and survived that and several near death experiences, getting to this day. I wait upon the Lord like never before in my life.

I've had some be very seriously at odds with me and this illness, expecting me to be healed and back to the Christian ministry I was envolved in before getting sick. I've always felt that the Lord has had incredible patience and love towards me and still do. So many people believe it's the enemy that does these things, and fault me and my faith for having put up with it. Like you say SnuP, I look forward to the day all these things are overcome, either in this life or the next, by the blood of the lamb. I'll try and help the Lord along as much as I am able in doing my part in obedience.

remember that God's ultimate goal is to bring you closer in relationship to Him.  If your suffering has already accomplished that then God is already glorified in you through this circumstance.  As you draw closer to Him you will find the healing that you really need, and It may not look like what you thought (there maybe something else that He desires to heal first).  You are right that you don't have to be healed to overcome your illness.  What happens to this body in terms of eternity is meaningless.  God cares more about your relationship with Him then what happens to your body.  So let nothing come between you and getting a closer relationship.  You may find that the more your attention is taken of the cares of this life and placed on Him that the healing will just happen.  If you can leave this world and its cares behind to embace the God of all creation then you have truly overcome all things.

To a brother who is fighting the good fight,

with love,

SnuP

 

[TruelightUK]

On the 'wretched man that I am' passage, my take on this one is that many Christians find themselves in this kind of dilemma, bec ause they have never learned/ been taught to distinguish between spiritual realities (dead to sin, new creations in Christ) and the carnal nature (physical urges, emotional habits, ingrained thought-patterns), from which we are potentially free - when we focus on the reality of what Christ has done for us - but which we are often tempted to make undue provision for. We are to see these things as 'dead', therefore having no claim over us, for, if we do not, then it is easy to find excuses why living the Christian life is 'too hard', 'not fair' etc.. The truth is, our bodies and minds don't enjoy being trained in a new way of living - but as 'dead men' they have no right to dictate to us what we do. This is, indeed, what 'sanctification' is all about - making our bodies true temples of the Holy Spirit, in the practicalities of day-to-day living, as well as in abstract theological terms.  Christ 'delivered us from the body of sin' ince for all upon the cross, which we appropriated by faith when we made him our Saviour and Lord. Yet the ongoing application of that reality is an ongoing, daily decision - will we live as the sons and daughters of the Living God that Christ has made us to be, or as the children of this world, which comes so much more 'naturally' to us, even tho' it is no longer the 'true us'?

Anthony